My t clutch - (watts) in my 24 coupe

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: My t clutch - (watts) in my 24 coupe
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 09:46 pm:

just cant get it exactly right - I describe it as slipping. Just when you go from low to high, as you let out the pedal, and advance the throttle, the car shakes just a bit (kind of grabs, or shutters) then its fine - no real slipping, Ive taken up on the clutch fingers a bit - maybe I need more. Im using a watts, and kevlar bands. Any help is appreciated. Its not me, I dont think, because my non watts truck ( all original clutch) is very smooth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 09:52 pm:

Well John, you know what the purists are going to tell you..... "Fifteen million model Ts, blah, blah, blah..."

Good luck, my friend, and other than this, have a great weekend!

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Gilmore on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 09:56 pm:

My runabout does the same. Another T I drive is much smoother in shifting from low to high. I am just going to live with the "shutters" for now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin, Branch/Lafayette, LA on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 09:59 pm:

Might just have some warped plates?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 10:07 pm:

John -- You might need to take up the fingers another half turn. Or, the three fingers may not be evenly adjusted (that's my guess). The Watts clutch is a great one, in my opinion. I have used them for many thousands of miles without any problems, and I always use them in new engines that I'm building.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 10:07 pm:

Thanks Seth - I knew somebody would say that - I was new and dum! I fell for that bulls*&^ about changing the clutch - Do you really think thats it??? If I ever have to take out the engine, should I really go back to original?? It had set for years and was all stuck, and I just thought I'd do a nice thing, but - Ha Ha on me I guess!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 10:09 pm:

Mike - I'll take it up some more - It was slipping - I mean really slipping, so I took it up some, and now its just doing that shuttering for a second or so - is that a form of slipping??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 10:12 pm:

Mike likes the Watts clutch, so my bet is that it's a good clutch. His opinions about what works and what doesn't are good ones, best I can tell!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 10:12 pm:

oh yea, while were on the subject, even though I do well with my truck - tell me - Seth or somebody - just real quick - the steps for driving from startup in low to high. Heres what I do. I start out in low, get her going fairly fast - 10 -15 miles per hour or so, then close the throttle, let out quick on the pedel, and then advance the throttle. - thats it isnt it? is there something to practice so that I can make it smooth? or smoother???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 10:16 pm:

John -- It's just like driving a stick-shift car. Let up on the gas when you shift, then ease it up again. It all becomes automatic after a while.

Seth -- Thank you for the compliment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 10:19 pm:

Guys - my Model A's are fun, but these T's - they are as tony the tiger says - GREAT!!!!!! god love em!!! They were put here to make us happy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 10:41 pm:

My pleasure, Mike. Thank you for continuing to freely share your knowledge of the T. I learn a lot from what you say and often repeat it to help others without giving you the credit for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 10:47 pm:

After the Watts / Turbo / Jacked up clutch burns out install a set of factory type steel clutches while the engine is out. You will have no further clutch trouble.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George...Cherry Hill, NJ on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:38 am:

As far as shifting up, I guess we all have our own ways. For me, I also pull the spark lever up a bit at shift and then pull it down again as I pull the throttle down.

I've found in both of mine that by doing it that way, I never find myself in a lugging condition as high engages if I'm slightly off as to when to shift.

don't know if I'm right in that, but it seems to behave best that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Seager on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 01:34 am:

I would be dissapointed if good ole Royce didnt speak up. He never misses a chance to bash after market clutches !!!!!! Thanks for the input to Mike and Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable Kiama Australia on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 01:50 am:

I happened to be in the USA just after the Watts clutch was released. I bought one and installed it when I returned to Australai. This was before they decided that the spring needed to be made stronger. I bought one when they became available and its still sitting in my cupboard thats neally 40 years ago.

The Watts clutch is still in the car, can't remember when I last had to take it up. In my case its been a perfect clutch, always releases, the car can be easily hand cranked any time, It doesn't matter if I leave the hand brake on, can be left for months and the car starts easily without ever jacking up a wheel.

Mike's instructions are spot on, ease off on the throttle when you let up on the pedal (easily don't just drop it) and slowly throttle it up after you let it into top gear. If you rev the engine too high while its still in neutral it will have to slip before it takes up. I think the shudder may be the clutch trying to grab hold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 01:54 am:

Peter,

I agree with you, especially on the reason for the shudder!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 07:40 pm:

Check the Watts clutch spring........... The round spring has been known to come off the spring retainer & come to rest on the 4th bearing retainer, with the resultant loss of spring pressure causing the shudder you are experiencing.

Went thru the same problem. My fix was to replace the clutch spring while in the car. After a few expletives, the deed was done. Replaced with a NOS Ford spring. No shifting problems since.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 11:30 am:

Sounds like your problem is that you need to get the "knack" of shifting your T just right every time, and not that anything is wrong with your clutch. What you are describing does not sound like a slipping clutch issue, but more of how you advance the throttle when you shift. The Ford clutch is more forgiving because it will slip a little when you shift which provides a smoother engagement. The modern clutch takes a bit more practice to shift good if you are not a real experienced T driver...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 11:28 pm:

Adam, I agree with your statement that the modern clutch takes a bit more practice if you are referring to the lined clutches, ie the Jack Rabbit or the turbo. The Watts discs are 100% fiber and slip just like the Ford discs.
In fact the only way a driver would be able to tell the difference is that the Watts clutch gives a free neutral.
Hey, Royce I have a question for you. Do Ford clutches give a perfectly good neutral if properly installed?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Harper - Keene, New Hampshire on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 08:41 am:

Richard,

Yes.

My Ford clutch will allow my to pull or push the car by hand around the driveway. I often pull it out of the garage prior to starting the engine.

My two cents worth. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 10:51 am:

With original Ford discs in good condition: If everything is properly adjusted, if you usually park with your hand brake lever all the way forward, if you use multi-weight detergent oil, and if it is above about 38 degrees F, then your clutch should be free enough that you can easily push your car around on a flat paved surface, and it will not creep when you start it. If you have problems with creeping or do not have a good free neutral, then there is something wrong that needs to be fixed!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By willie k cordes on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 11:49 am:

Royce, after about 25 years of using a Watts clutch in my 1912 touring, I am still waiting for it to "smoke" so I can follow your advice as posted above.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 12:04 pm:

Willie,

It WILL smoke. Royce said so. LOL

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Monday, October 25, 2010 - 02:21 am:

Boy Do I hate to see any one urge new guy in the hobby to use steel clutch disks. I have brake drums in my iron pile that have been destroyed by steel clutch disks. Transmission brake drums are cast iron and very soft. If you just stop and think for a minute ever time you push in the low pedal to move forward the steel disks are striking the softer brake lugs and every time you put on the foot brake the steel disks are striking the other side of the lugs. I have seen brake drums that had the lugs completly gone in the middle. If you only drive your garage queen across town once a month to get ice cream then you can get by OK with Steel disks, if you are rally going to drive your car a lot and on long trips you will pay for it. When you use a Watts Clutch no metal touches your lugs.
I guess since I usually have a dozen or so transmission brake drums in stock I should encourage the guys that like the steel disk to go ahead and ruin their drums. Maybe when they ruin their Drums they will be forced to buy another drum from somebody.
As for a burning up a watts clutch I had a chance to inspect a Watts clutch a while back that had 30,000 miles on it. It was in a heavy Center Door and it looked like the day it came from the factory. If any one has a problem with a Watts Clutch is because it was not installed correctly. Alway use a spring checker to find springs over 100 LBS.

A455a


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, October 25, 2010 - 11:18 am:

I have run a Watts clutch for 30 years. It has never given me any trouble.
Dave
On the brake drums, do you make the earlier style to accept the hardened steel shoes from the later clutch?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Tuesday, October 26, 2010 - 10:54 am:

Les:

Since I use Watts Clutches in all my Ts I don't have to do any thing but file the lugs smooth so the disks can slide.
NOTE Using shoes on the lugs is NOT the answer to destroying your lugs. I have seen original lugs shoes that were installed by Henry destroyed by steel disks. When the pieces hit the rest of the transmission you can quess the results, I am sure it is not good. Lug shoes do work for awhile but AGAIN if you don't have garage queens and use steel disks the lug shoes themselves get cut. That can't be good for allowing your disks to slide. Your disks must slide easy to get a good neutral.
I am going to dig through my iron pile and get one of the brake drums that have been destroyed by steel disk and try and take a picture.
five Ts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Tuesday, October 26, 2010 - 11:23 am:

I totally agree with Dave'e assessment re the advantage of a Watts clutch over steel discs. I'd like to add something else. The problem with using steel discs is compounded when you use a turbo or Jack Rabbit clutch because the action is so positive. IE even more pressure on the soft lugs from the fast engagement.
The following is a true story.
I had a NOS early brake drum I installed on my 12 when I first restored the chassis. I used a Jack Rabbit clutch. I drove the chassis around the neighborhood for a few weeks. The engine developed a problem and I tore it down.
I was stunned to see how much grooving had occured on the brake drum lugs from the action of the steel discs. After driving no more than 50 miles on a car without a body!!
At that point I switched over to a Watts clutch. I installed a Watts clutch in my 10 and 26. I have also torn both those engines down for rebuilds and the Watts clutch and brake drum look the same as the day they were installed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Tuesday, October 26, 2010 - 11:08 pm:

3 of my 4 running T's are equipped with Watts Clutches. I have no experience with the Turbo 400 or Jack Rabbet clutches. One of my T's has had a Watts Clutch for about 20 years. I have not adjusted it since it was installed and the car has been driven over 10,000 miles. I would bet that the car has also run about of the hours that it has on the road sitting in my shop running in neutral while I was fooling with it. The cars with the Watts Clutches have free neutral and my 14 with original Ford steel clutches will try to run you over you when cranked with 10W30 oil in the crankcase. I bought the Watts clutch for my 26 Coupe from RV because his kit is complete and ready to install with the heavy spring and pressure plate with shortened pins. At that time I was busy at work and wanted to order all of the parts ready to install from one supplier. Your mileage may vary!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Tuesday, October 26, 2010 - 11:20 pm:

I dont remember who I bought the Watts from, but I do know that I used a new spring from R.V. Anderson with it. I think I just need to get it adjusted properly, which I am working on now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Tuesday, October 26, 2010 - 11:40 pm:

John,

If you belong to a local T club I bet that someone would help you get it set up right. The Watts clutch is a great product despite what some of the Ex Sperts on this forum tell you. I do not rule out the original steel clutch plates but the Watts clutch has proved to me to be a better product.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 10:28 pm:

Watts failures 2010

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/167522.html?1288125409

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/166065.html?1288150804

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/167454.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/167522.html


Turbo failures 2010

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/167406.html?1288139695

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/144652.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/129390.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/155069.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Seager on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 10:37 pm:

I am still waiting for mine to smoke too Seth. Sure hope it does I'd hate top see Royce be wrong. HE HE


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 11:11 pm:

As I have stated 3 of 4 of my running T's have Watts clutches. I am planning to pull the engine out of my 14 this winter because it smokes more than I am comfortable with. It was last rebuilt sometime in the early 60's. You can bet that when it goes back into the car it will have a Watts clutch in it. That is because the Watts clutch, when installed properly, is superior to the original Ford steel clutch. Then I will have 4 out of 4 or my running T's equipped with this great product! I will enjoy many miles of trouble free operation. A couple of years ago the internal oil line scoop broke off of one of my T's that I drive a lot and wiped out the mag field coil . When I pulled the motor apart to fix it the Watts clutch showed no signs of wear after many miles and years of service. But I use un-necessary motorcycle that is formulated for multiple disk wet clutches in my cars.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 11:21 pm:

As some one else posted in the last couple of days PROOF READ. I was trying to say "But I use un-necessary motorcycle OIL that is formulated for multiple disk wet clutches in my cars."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 11:51 pm:

Royce I read your list of Watts failures for 2010 and they are all the same problem posted by John Lemming. This thread is two of them and the other two are nothing more than follow ups on this thread.
after reading them, It appears his problems were a result of improper driving techniques. In other words there was one Watts failure in 2010 reported on the forum? It would be interesting to know how many are in service.

Paul The motor cycle oil is very interesting but all I've found is very heavy viscosity. What do you use?


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