Just got a set of Guinn wood linings and after reading a bit I decided to use aluminum pop rivets. What diameter and length rivets should I use?
3/16" diameter 1/8 grip"
Pat, once you have pulled the rivets, make sure you punch out the nail head within the set rivets. Otherwise there is a chance some of them could be set loose in the trans.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
Pat, they will work fine, do as Allan suggested on the heads. I have 31k on a set in one car now and have never had a problem. You might have to ream the holes in the band a little bit. KB
Is it possible to install a set of the wood bands, lined, through the top? I hate to think of taking anything apart, it has taken me years to finally get all the leaks stopped. I have had these bands for quite a long time, bought them from Mr Guinn, and may just leave them for someone else if you all think it can't be done, I have read horror stories here in the past about bending them.
Grady, I won't say it's impossible but not likley with out bending the bands or breaking the wood. I put mine on after the pan was on and it was trickey to do that way. Since I put them on before the pan goes on and use plastic wires ties to hold them in place till everything is put together. I would wait to install them if I were you untill the next tear down. I believe the complaints about chatter are brought on by out of round bands or by being bent on installation. Just my 02. KB
Installing bands through the cover is less problem with wood lined bands than with any fabric, because the wood has more strength to retain shape than the thin steel. If you distort the wood liner too far, you will hear it crack. If you distort a kevlar covered band, you may not know it until the drum cracks.
With my 4-dip pan and cover, I've never cracked a wood band installing it, as the wood is quite flexible, but I've never been able to remove a used band without cracking it. I've only changed a wood band between major engine work a couple of times, after my younger son slipped the clutch too much.
If your bands have been in an unsealed package for a long time, Grady, I would soak them in ATF for a day or two before trying to install them. If they're still sealed from Guinn, I wouldn't bother.
From personal experience...when Bob Jablonski and I did some work on Edison's T last year one of the tasks was to do a band change and to do so with wood. Spent the time to make the hoops perfectly round, etc...then decided to try a through the top on a '22. I won't spring a set of bands once round, wood or otherwise, just me...and let's just say that it took longer than it takes for paint to dry There came a point where 2 of them were in and the third was so tough I was willing to start again this time pulling the hogshead. Then as if by magic, the stars aligned and the 3rd popped in and made its way around the front d.s. boss that just seemed too tight to begin with. Long day, took from 9 until about 2 with a bunch of cussing. Buttoned it up, quick ride, turned one another turn, and flawless and smooth from there on.
Now, based on that embarrassing 'event' in front of Bob, when I did my next set of wood here later in the summer I said 'hogshead coming off! 5 hours is embarassing!' Well, it took me 4...and...I stretched an MCL because I tried the final 'lift' reaching in over the driver side to lift the hogshead because I was too lazy to move the car over a bay to use the ceiling hoist...and...when done I had a leaker! Not just a weeper but a 'follow me home tell-tale', so have to do it over.
Danged if you do, danged if you don't. 10 weeks in a knee brace. With the hogshead off, they do go in real simple...and you don't need to stretch the hoops (I 'think' my seal problem was that I decided to use 'the right stuff' for the first time and the 'open time' on that is incredibly 'short' and I by nature am incredibly 'slow'. )
I didn't say a word to anyone...... now you've done it.... LOL !
We still had a great time wrenching "the Old Man's" 1922 Touring.
'Tis OK Bob...I left a story out about an early band change on a '26 that was even more embarrassing. Jeffs' grandfather (RIP) was an 'of the era' T mechanic and he had picked up a set of pre-mounted 'yellows' at Hershey a number of years ago. I told him he needed to not just slap the 'yellows' in, they took some care, and I could do it 'through the door'. As these things go, he naturally said 'go for it smarty' and he did something else in the tractor shed while I was doing the 'yellows' and teaching my boys at the same time. On that we managed to drop a nut under a fold in the rags and of course on moving the rag it was nowhere to be found. We spent forever trying to get the nut then fortunately, the boys then 10 y/o cousin stopped by and was around, really skinny arm, really small hand, 'hey kid, go fish!' and danged if he didn't get it and fish it up!
Got it all buttoned up and set, cleaned up the tractor shed bay, turned to the old man and said 'Done and ready!' He smiled back and said, "Good thing, I was always held to standards and the way I see it you took about 3 hours longer...but then again, I would have never dropped the nut!" His wry and dry humor said it all...as was his way for as long as I could remember myself from when I first started turning wrenches in his tractor shed as a teen myself!
I therefore decree that I will never try for so called 'standards' ever and I can use the fastidious OC stuff as my excuse....
OK, So I have the wood bands all relined, Is there any differences I'm going to notice in driving the car after being used to having cotton bands? Any pedal feel difference? Should it be driven any different with wood? Just wondering what to expect and whats "normal" differences.
wood will not squish like cotton, it feels firmer. with wood make sure you have the band engaged before you give it to much throttle, this is the main cause of chatter.
my set required some fairly frequent preliminary adjustment, but now i havent adjusted them in several thousand miles.
As Matthew says, I find they will chatter if you try to slip the band at all, you need to engage Low fully before opening the throttle, and Reverse definitely shudders. I have also found the brake is not as effective as with Kevlar, it needs more pressure. Although that was in the bedding-in period, I will see how it all feels this season.
I am Kevlar stupid but I have both wood and Scandis linings. I think each have their pluses and minuses. I love the longevity of the wood but the smooth operation of the Scandis.
I agree with Jem's comment about fully engaging low before opening the throttle. You can burn the wood bands if you slip them like the cotton linings and then they will chatter violently. (experience talking here)
No matter what type of lining you use, you need to learn to use them the same way. Low should be slipped barely enough to make the car begin to roll, then pressed hard to stop the drum fully and then not slipped at all. Slipping cotton will destroy the lining quickly, and could ruin the drum. Slipping wood may ruin the drum. Slipping Kevlar WILL ruin the drum.
Reverse is counter-intuitive, but should be done the same way as low for the same reasons. The saving grace for reverse is that you rarely back up more than thirty feet, almost not enough distance to get the drum too hot. Note, I said "almost".
Brake of course the drum cannot be stopped until the rear wheels stop (or something breaks). However the brake drum is built much heavier in part due to the clutch. It is therefore less likely to overheat and break, but can be still destroyed. It needs to be pumped in order to not squeeze all the oil out and to allow some oil to find its way in between the drum and the lining. This is to both have oil to carry away heat from the lining and drum and to reduce the friction which would otherwise cause heat. This may be also seem counter-intuitive, but a major part of braking power is the removal of energy as heat. Only under extreme "lock them or lose it" conditions should you even consider slamming the brake pedal down hard and holding it. (Odds are good you may lose it in the skid anyway)
Another thing about braking. Have a good functioning hand brake and use it. A mostly stock model T with good inside lined rear brakes, even small drum, is adequate. Small drum with properly adjusted cast iron lined brakes are barely adequate, but will do, and look best on some cars. My center-door sedan I used to have could lock the both rear wheels at speed with good control through the handle. Faster Ts with extra transmissions should have outside brakes. I prefer the outside brakes to work with the brake handle, not the pedal.
As I just said on another thread the other day, I have and will again use all three types of linings. I don't have a solid preference. I do somewhat prefer cotton. I generally get a couple thousand miles out of cotton linings, even driving the speedsters hard on endurance runs.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I agree wholeheartedly with Wayne. Bands should be slipped as little as absolutely possible. Low and Reverse, hold them to the floor good and hard. In reverse, this may only be for a second or two, but I still do it. I get it moving then let off and let it coast. I seldom have to get on the pedal a second time. Brakes? Do everything you can to NOT have to use them. Plan ahead. Close the throttle. Retard the spark (Some say this does nothing, but it sure works on mine). If you are on the straight and level, you can coast right up to the stop sign and use the brake only for the last few feet and last couple of MPH.
Wood bands can be slipped through the hole of a 26-27 transmission cover. Start at the left rear - driver's side and put in the reverse first. Put it up forward over the lip then put in the other two. Pull them back into place and trim them all up and lock wire them loosely, slide the pedals in place and attach them.
I like to drill through the wood using that small hole in the metal strap so you can hook them with a bent wire to pull them around.
How tight do the new wood bands like to be adjusted? I have been told "loose". Does this mean too loose to drive for the first run on a new motor? Maybe just tight enough for the bands to clamp before the pedal hits the floor?
Fit the bands as with any linings, loose is wrong. If loose the lining won't stop the turning drum, and will heat fast and wear away quickly.
Adjust so the band/lining isn't dragging, and the drums can turn free. With new linings, yes the brake can be adj. to hold firm well above the floorboards.
The low pedal band/lining is adj. first, so that it is firm at about 2"-3' above the floorboard. The distance setting isn't as important as how the band/lining holds the drum, if low is too loose, it will go over center and stick in low. Same with reverse pedal, if too loose, it will stay stuck and you have to lift it back with the toe of the foot...bad things.
See paragraph on lower left for details.
Then do the famous 'free neutral' job, in setting the clevis.
You will like the wood bands.
Thanks Dan, I only just got the hogshead on and have yet to make any adjustment at all. I'll tighten them up some but still leave them as loose as I dare to allow oil to soak into the bands. I did not soak them prior to installation.
The above drawing is very helpful in adjusting the high speed clutch.