Help with brass alloy for brazing

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Help with brass alloy for brazing
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Saturday, January 05, 2013 - 11:16 pm:

I have windshield braces that the top connecting bracket pin has elongated the hole and needs to be filled/redrilled and a new rivet installed. Is there an alloy I can use for the brazing rod that matches old brass (1912) better than the normal brazing rod?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 12:34 am:

I think that that will be a matter of trial and error. If you want to take a part of the windshield around to some welding supply shops and compare the brazing rods available to the brass in the windshield you will get the closest available. I would compare them out in the sunlight and probably polish both of them to see how they will compare once the job is done.

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 12:38 am:

Sounds like you have the same situation as me with my pat. April 13, 1908, Mezger Automatic windshield. The end of the tube in the upper half was cracked and the rivets loose. I took it to a pro with two $6K welders, and he "heli-brazed" it pronto. He advertises No Job Too Small, so perfect for one like this.

I found a bur for a Dremel at Home Debt, and cleaned the tube up in and out. It doesn't show, at least not compared to the other dings in this relic.

For rivets, all I've come up with is a piece of 3/16 brass rod that I will have to peen on the ends, but haven't done it yet. How will you do it?



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 03:41 am:

Re: “with my pat. April 13, 1908, Mezger Automatic windshield”
Sorry Ralph, That patent date is a No – Go / Remember the only on ‘Tuesday’ rule.

Here are what appear to be the original and the ReIssue patents.

George W. Kerr
Springfield, Massachusetts
Windshield for Vehicles
Patent number: 812930
Filing date: Mar 1, 1905
Issue date: Feb 20, 1906
http://tinyurl.com/b894kgf

George W. Kerr
West Springfield, Massachusetts
Assignor to C. A. Mezger Inc
New York, New York
Wind Shield for Self Propelled Vehicle
Patent number: RE13086
Filing date: Jan 17, 1910
Issue date: Mar 1, 1910
http://tinyurl.com/bhzjjjc

And another ad in case you don’t have this one . . .



Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 08:17 am:

Thanks for the good info and the ad, Art. Mine must not be a Mezger, but a knockoff. The hinges are clearly stamped with Pat. April 13, 1908, and there is no data plate.

Besides that, the uplatches must be released by hand, a sometimes slightly frustrating experience to get both springloaded latches released at the same time. I'm glad for the latches, as I wouldn't want the upper panel to come slamming down from a gust of wind or hiway speed.

Gene Carrothers has the Rands on his 12 Torpedo pinned to prevent falling down, as the hinge's spring loading would be too great to operate easily if tight enough to prevent dropping at serious speed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 08:17 am:

RS bronze welding brass is a process frought with difficulty due to similar melting points. I had a similar problem with repro winscreen hinges breaking at the milling around the boltholes. Stupid manufacturers mill the flats for the nuts and make a nice stress riser by leaving a sharp corner at the base of the land. If they used a radiused milling tool it would not happen so readily.

Anyway, I silver brazed the crack and added a thin brass sheet strengthener on the inside, silver brazing that in place too. The metal in the weld is not so yellow, but most of it is not seen anyway. If you silver braze your hole and re-drill it, not much, if any, of the brazing will be seen.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 01:20 pm:

RS, I have used silver solder on some bras that will match pretty well, I think the rods I used were 15%. Good luck, KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 01:59 pm:

I would never have thought to use silver solder on bras.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 02:28 pm:

Harris Safety Silv 45 silver solder has a good color match to brass. I think Royce has used it for this purpose, you might send him a PM.

http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Alloys/Brazing/High-Silver/Safety -Silv-45.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 02:38 pm:

Ricks, what head do you need on the rivets? How long do you need them? I may be able to help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 04:04 pm:

RV: The hole is 3/16 x 7/8". The old copper (not brass) rivets were flush with the brass tube, which doesn't seem all that clever to me.



There appears to be no clamping pressure on the tube, and that's in the direction it gets its most bending strain.



The lower hinge half apparently doesn't get as much strain. Among the distractions of the residue and other parts is the copper rivet on the lower section.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 06:30 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 06:36 pm:

To Allen/Keith/Ted: I would have never thought to use silver solder in place of brazing rod and you all are correct, filling the holes and drilling for a new rivet won't show. The question I would have is the solder hard enough to withstand the vibrations without wearing too quickly around the brass rivet? Most of the wear is on the rivet today(almost in half) but the holes do have some elongation. I could increase the hole size on both pieces and increase the rivet size and not worry about filling the holes!! What do you think? Also, I plan on turning new rivets form brass stock.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 07:04 pm:

So you're looking for a countersunk head, Ricks?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 07:14 pm:

R.S., silver solder is pretty durable stuff, I would'nt be afraid to use it there. I repair sediment bulb pet cocks when the handle is broken off by using a 1/8th inch dia. piece of brass rod for a dowel and fabricating a new handle. When soldered on and then worked down, you can hardly see the repair. I guess I'm to cheap to replace parts if I can repair them. Ricks, if your rivets were copper maybe just use a piece of solid copper ground wire, anneal it, then peen it over. I have used this method to repair old cast iron pots and kettles. I checked my stash but had no copper rivets long enough for you. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 07:18 pm:

What I know about rivets you could write on a rivet head. Would countersinking the holes, then a 7/16 flathead copper rivet driven in from each side be a good fix?

Doesn't it look like the originals were just pushed in, then filed smooth?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 08:10 pm:

Ricks I would think the rivet would need to go all the way through if possible, I can't tell from the photo if this would work unless there is a way to get something in from the outside to buck a short rivet. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 08:47 pm:

Good question, Keith. I was wondering if both rivets could be bucked at once if they kissed in the middle?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 10:41 pm:

Ralph,

I think your rivets are just one rivet that goes all the way through both holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, January 06, 2013 - 11:11 pm:

You're right, Bob, but one rivet was replaced by a screw and nut years ago, and the other is BER, Beyond Economical Repair. I want the new rivets to provide some clamping on the hinge, not just a thru piece as the original appears to be.

Thinking as I write, I guess the ideal would be a counterunk rivet that I could buck into a countersink on the far side. Good luck with that, huh?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, January 07, 2013 - 06:11 am:

Ralph, if copper rivets are original, they will have minimum clamping force. If replacing them with copper all you would need is a minimum countersink at each hole and then peen and file a piece of straight copper rod. You only need enough countersink to stop the rivet falling out.

Hope this helps.

allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Monday, January 07, 2013 - 08:19 am:

Ricks, Allen is right, copper should peen over very easily and be easy to file and work down. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Monday, January 07, 2013 - 08:36 am:

What about using a "screw and tube" nut set in place of a rivet? Once you assemble the screw into the tube you could fill the slot in the screw with a little solder to make it look like a rivet. I think you can order them in brass.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Monday, January 07, 2013 - 04:35 pm:

I have taken the rivet out and found that the holes have not elongated as much as the rivet/pin has warn. Therefore, I have decided to redrill to round out the hole and mill a pin I can peen over on each side. Like my original question, does anyone know of a brass stock alloy that is best to use to get a yellow color vs orangy like I see in some brass??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Monday, January 07, 2013 - 05:04 pm:

OK; Ricks; I'm sending you some copper countersunk head rivets, 3/16" diameter. PM me with your address.

rvmodelt@netsync.net


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, January 07, 2013 - 06:16 pm:

Oh, that's Great, RV. I may owe you for them forever, but I won't beat you out of it...

5362 Old Pirate
92649

Thanks heaps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, January 07, 2013 - 06:23 pm:

RSC, the brass looking rod you need is available at any good welding supplier. I buy 1/4" rods to use as hinge pins in hoods. They will have it in multiple sizes. Buy your rod first and you may simply be able to drill the pieces to suit without any machining.

Hope this helps.

AllAn from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 11:20 am:

Ralph, I would spring the hinge tabs open some to give good fit, then make an insert between the two tabs. you should be able to silver solder the hinge into the tube, just like sweating a tubing fitting. That would give a perm strong connection.

Gene from St Maarten


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - 12:49 pm:

Rub it in, Gene! Froze my bippy going to Old Bold in the T this morning.


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