Official warning by AAA and car companies NOT to use E-15 in cars older than 2012.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Official warning by AAA and car companies NOT to use E-15 in cars older than 2012.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 07:47 am:

This speaks for itself and probably should include E-10 as well. For me, it settles the long running debate that has been going on on this forum since the adoption of ethanol gas by the government. http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/. This stuff is BAD for your car and lawn equipment and should not be used: Watch and heed and try and find a source for ethanol free fuel.

We have been discussing this for years yet the newscasters reporting this story act incredulous as if this is the first time they have ever heard of this problem or that the government could possibly require, by law, the use of something that is as harmful as E-15 (or E-10). The government would NEVER do that! Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 08:19 am:

PS. Here is a website that has been posted here on the forum many times before (but not recently) that one can go to to locate, by state and city, fuel stations that sell regular ethanol-free gasoline. For the sake of your gasoline motors it would behoove you to find a supplier of regular gas in your area and use it. www.pure-gas.org. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 08:42 am:

Jim, my T has been sitting for 6 months while I've been playing with my Rambler. Normally, she would have been driven every couple weeks and I would top off the tank before I parked her.
Now, she won't start? I haven't had the time yet to dig into things but I'll bet it has to do with the lousy E10 gas. I'm going to drain the tank and pull the float bowl and I'll almost bet I find a water residue in them. Model T's will run on almost everything from kerosene to moon shine but they won't run on water.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 08:59 am:

As purchasing manager in charge of purchasing fuel for our dozens of vehicles for our railcar repair operations (pickup trucks, field trucks, trackmobiles, mobile cranes, tractors, gas operated welding machines, generators, lawn equipment, etc.), I began purchasing and having ethanol free gasoline delivered to our fuel depot in 2009. Thank goodness I did, for the few cents more I pay per gallon for regular unleaded, I have probably saved the company tens of thousands of dollars in maintenance costs and downtime which can mean the difference between getting the job done promptly and keeping the customer satisfied or losing customers by being unable to do the job because of equipment failure and going out of business. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Copeland - Evans Mills NY on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 09:26 am:

Sadly, there are those of us that have no choice in the matter, In in my area there is no other option other than what is sold to us.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 09:36 am:

My F-150 gets 16 MPG on the highway with gasoline, and 14.5 MPG with E-10. Driving 1600 miles with gasoline I consume 100 gallons of gasoline. If I use E-10, I consume 110 gallons, of which 100 gallons is gasoline and 10 gallons is ethanol. I therefore pay $3.30/gallon for 10 gallons of ethanol I might as well throw out the window and cannot even drink! I'm sure it takes several gallons of diesel fuel for the tractors and growing of this ethanol, so we are actually increasing our dependence on foreign oil by this stupidity. Ah, the government. They are just here to help us!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 10:27 am:

Will, I clicked onto NY at the bottom of the www.pure-gas.org link and found that Watertown, NY, is listed as having a station that sells ethanol free gas and is just 8 miles south of Evans Mills on Hwy 11. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 02:58 pm:

Bummer. I checked that site and the closest is about 125 miles away. Only 106 in the whole state of Texas and I would question half of those since the branding doesn't match what's being made by producers. Might be a good idea to call ahead and verify before making a special trip.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 03:07 pm:

down here in Nazifornia the gas goes old in only 2 months. the stuff is terrible and has a skunky smell to it. so far i havent had a problem with it, but i worry about how little lubricating qualities it has.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 03:12 pm:

Read the comments for listed stations. Some no longer have it or have other negative comments. I've found some errors in locations reported as having alcohol free gas that no longer have it. Some sell as a premium fuel. Almost all locations in Michigan are marinas. Some is sold as racing gas. $$$$ either way. Closest to me is about 24 miles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 03:36 pm:

Yesterday, for the first time in at least 7 years, I started a 5.5kw Generac Generator with B&S engine, with 1/4 tank of old fuel. It started on the second pull, and ran fine. I was relieved.

I'll be selling it and one like it, as storage is too expensive. We'll keep the third one, which is a 5kw Coleman.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 03:41 pm:

Fortunately I have a marina, that sells alcohol free gas, only 3 miles from me. Unfortunately I paid just over $5/gal when I prepped the Jag for the winter hibernation. On my 1926 Touring it is just so convenient to drain, by gravity, the tank and the NH.
A marina will be very careful about making doubly sure to know what is in the gas they sell. Some boats have fiberglass tanks, and the alcohol has been known to dissolve the resins and cause leaks. the result could be a big bang, or at best a nice fire, and either way would result in a big money law suit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 03:44 pm:

Ricks,
I don't know what engine is in your Coleman, but if it is a Tecumseh, sell that and keep one with a B. & S. Tecumseh is out of business, and parts are becoming scarce.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 04:18 pm:

Ricks,Roar is right on target.Techumseh will soon be a problem for alot of folks.Unless aftermarket folks really step up to the plate,parts will be scarce.They were used alot and would give ok service.But parts is going to be a problem.
If 1 of them doesnt put out 120,pm me and I will give a quick rundown of how to flash it so it will work.
Ebay was the ONLY source I had for a simple headgasket for my HH120 on my Suburban tractor.
No shop or parts house around here could get 1.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 05:10 pm:

Thanks, guys. Hadn't thought to check that. These gens don't have over a dozen hours on them in 10 years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 06:42 pm:

Same warning up here..


National Association of Automobile Clubs of Canada

NAACC takes a strong stand on the use of E15 Ethanol fuel
Report #85 January 2013

The NAACC does not support the use of Ethanol blended fuels. All blends of Ethanol are reported to cause serious damage to a variety of components in collector vehicles. The use of E10 causes deterioration in fuel lines, carburetors and fuel tanks.
· Vehicles that are stored with Ethanol blended fuel often sustain serious damage. The NAACC recommends that vehicles stored for any period of time be fueled with Shell 91 or Chevron 94 non alcohol blended fuel.

E 15 Ethanol fuel is a new product that is now being introduced to the public in the USA.
This fuel has NO redeeming features. It has been reported that if this fuel is used in vehicles older than 2012 that the vehicle will sustain serious damage to its fuel system. It is very corrosive and may also cause damage to engine pistons and valves because of detonation. This damage is caused by “Phase Separation” in the fuel itself.

The NAACC strongly recommends that you call up the following video. This report will leave no doubt as to the harmful effects of E15. Triple A (AAA) in the USA has also stated that this product is very harmful to your vehicle.
Please--Watch this video from Fox...if your CAR IS OLDER THAN 2012 you need to AVOID THE NEW E15 GASOLINE.
Most car companies including Ford, BMW, VW, Toyota, Honda, Kia, Mercedes, and Chrysler will not honor the warranty on your car if you use this new gasoline!!!

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/


· Another side effect of the production of E15 is the rising cost of food. The summer of 2012 saw a serious drought in the mid west where crop yields were 15% less than normal. In the USA food costs will surely rise because there is a government mandate to provide 15% of the crop to corn squeezers for fuel. Canadian food prices will follow.
In our opinion the production of this product is not about the green movement and providing a cleaner planet. It is all about money and subsidies!

Thank you,
John Carlson
President/CEO, NAACC
http://www.naacc.ca/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 08:56 pm:

Ricks, I fired up our generator last month just before the hordes descended for the holiday... just wanted to be sure the well could be kept pumping for showers and toilets no matter what. I had to replace the rotted fuel lines, and then it fired up on the varnish in the tank and ran fine.

I like to drain it and run the carb bowl dry. The T will run on that generator fuel, I keep a can of fuel to dump into the generator if needed. I try to remember dump the old fuel from the generator fuel can into my T every few months and refill the can with fresh. I guess I could go get some stabilizer if I wasn't so frugal (please don't change that word!). Those rotted lines were "alcohol resistant" lines. I suspect that the new hoses will rot whether or not you drain the tank. My generator has a shut-off valve which I always close just in case... and I try to keep a length of hose handy just in case!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 09:11 pm:

I sent a link to this thread to a friend.
This is his comment:

"Ethanol is poor because it is low on energy and absorbs water. It is no secret as I knew about it 70 years ago. when it was used for racing. Also is crapped up our water injecton tanks in our P51 air-racer over the winter. The reason for it now is to hide the farm subsidy and make the taxpayers and everybody else pay for those subsidies without cutting the taxes. The reason for subsidies is to provide the city people cheap food to prevent rebellion . Strictly political.."

Chuck has been around a while and seen a lot.

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 09:29 pm:

Wednesday I started me '48 Nash for the first time since I put gas in it on the 4th of July.
It started right off and ran fine.
I drove it 30 miles and left it two days.
Today it started good and ran back just fine. There is a long hill half way there and I moved into the left lane, there are five, and passed all the slower moving stuff at about 70MPH. It ran fine.
I did not know we have ethanol in our gas.
the website shows only two with pure gas in all of Taxafornia.
I work on cars all the time that have two year old gas. I never see any problems in those car's fuel systems because of poor gas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas on Friday, January 11, 2013 - 10:55 pm:

I live in Iowa. I do not farm. We have been using ethanol for probably close to 25 years now. I will admit that some cars get better fuel mileage on "straight gas", but that can be traced to slightly lower btu in alcohol compared to gasoline. There is no shortage of corn for the food supply. We export more corn out of the United States than we ever have in the past,(loosely translated, we have more corn than we can use). Here in Iowa, believe it or not, we drive the same cars that you do, because we buy them from the same place you do, Ford, General Motors, Honda, etc. We don't have any of the problems some of you folks attibute to alcohol. As for all that alcohol attracting water, well the next time your fuel line freezes up from using that "straight gas" that has gathered water, your mechanic will add an alcohol product to thaw the ice from the line. If you remember a product name "HEET" that was basically straight alcohol, well, we all use to carry a can or two in the trunk for that time in winter when our fuel lines froze up, well, I don't think you can even buy it here anymore, because we don't need it. And lastly, if you think that corn sells for $7.00 a bushel now because those ethanol plants are driving up the price corn and the price of corn flakes. The amount of corn in a big box of corn flakes costs about 17 cents, so I will leave it up to you to figure out where the rest of the cost comes from. Corn is like many other products now, it is a part of the global economy. You are competing with the rest of the world for a bushel of corn, that is why it now costs $7.00 a bushel. So, my 25 years of experience with ethanol, and being close, but not part of the farming commnity would lead me to caution you to research this issue a little farther. I think you will come to my conclusion if you approach it with an open mind and really do your homework. Ethanol is not going to hurt your car, new or old, and ethanol plants are not driving up the price of corn, the world market is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 02:41 am:

If this stuff is so good for your car, why does it turn to rotten gas after only 2 months in my cars and lawn mowers? I have had problems over the last 3 years with bad gas after I park the cars and mowers for the winter. It never happened before in ANY car unless it sat for more than 5 years. The gas we buy now is worse than anything ever sold in the US.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 02:52 am:

MTBE was a refinery waste product until Union 76 convinced the govt it was a good fuel additive for cleaner air. Turns out it is disastrous for our ground water. I think it's outlawed now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 10:12 am:

I just hope the dang stuff is properly labled so we dont get it by accident.
When they can make the fuel from grass and other plants besides our food source,it really dont make any sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew Atchinson on Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 10:33 am:

Hey Mack,

Hang in there on that hope! My major at college is Biochemistry. The brother-in-law of my professor is one of the heads at a facility out west working on that kind of fuel. They're reproducing a bacteria that excretes oil as a bi-product. All you do then is filter out the oil, kill off the bacteria, multiply them again from another batch and do it all again. This process actually works and they've been making vats of useable oil now. All it takes is some water pools with some solar heating panels nearby to keep the bacteria at optimal bredding temperatures, and some food-stuffs for them. Hopefully this really catches on, because it's relatively cheap and the oil is very similar in structure to current crude oil. It can be processed down into gasoline.

I get concerned with the ethanol gas because I heard E-10 is not good for engines made previous to the late 80's or so. My main car is a 1979 Toyota Celic, so every time I gas up and see that "contains 10% ethanol, I cringe and apologize to my poor car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 10:55 am:

Slightly OT: Techumsa's been bought out by some company (Don't remember the name), a lot of parts are available again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 01:16 pm:

The nearest thing to perpetual motion I've read about are the fish farms in Arizona's Gila River valley. They flood half the land, and raise Tilapia, a vegetarian fish, and feed them corn which they grow on the other half of the land. After a season, they swap the plots of land, and the corn is fertilized by what the fish dropped in the prior season.

I read about this 20 years ago. Dunno if it's still going on, or if cheap imported fish raised in sewage has dried up their market.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 01:50 pm:

That is good news for parts Charlie.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, January 14, 2013 - 12:16 am:

Corn prices affect prices in the food chain for both people and animals. If ethanol was not subsidized by the government, corn based ethanol would virtually disappear. The demand for corn for ethanol has driven up the price of corn since it became subsidized. A further increase in corn prices was caused this year by drouth. Turning a food crop into motor fuel in my view is stupid, especially when you and I subsidize it twice, once when the farmer is paid and then again in the reduced fuel economy achieved in our vehicles.

The only redeeming quality of ethanol in fuel is it eliminated the use of MTBE in gasoline formulations. As little as 2 ppb of MTBE in ground water and you can taste it. When it gets in ground water as it has in many places, there is no way to get rid of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Monday, January 14, 2013 - 09:26 am:

Which brings me back to a question I posed when I first started posting here a couple years ago - what's better, the Premium E-10-free gas I have available to me or the E-10 regular?

Some of you recommended avoiding the E-10-free premium because there was a danger of harming the motor with the higher compression that would come with it.

What are your thoughts these days?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, January 14, 2013 - 09:30 am:

Which car, Danial?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Monday, January 14, 2013 - 09:47 am:

It's in regard to my 27 coupe, Ralph.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas on Monday, January 14, 2013 - 11:43 am:

I am sorry but this reminds me so much of the Chicken Little Story about how the sky is falling! If you folks would please, please, talk to any of your friends here in the midwest who have used ethanol for years now, you would see, that the only part of this thread that is true, is the part about federal subsidies. Ture, if it were not for federal subsidies, ethanol would not be able to compete with regular gasoline. But the rest of it is just not true.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Monday, January 14, 2013 - 01:32 pm:

I still do not understand why alcohol should be a problem as described here.
But then - if drinking beverages with 10 or 15 or even 85% of alcohol can also be damaging to your health! So who knows!
(and THAT is a scientific fact!)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, January 14, 2013 - 04:57 pm:

Danial,

High octane gasoline will not damage a Model T engine. It just costs more. If you are going to drive it either is just fine.

Modern gasoline does not store well, so if your car is going to sit up for more than a month, its best to drain the tank and carburetor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Monday, January 14, 2013 - 07:19 pm:

After running everything I own on E-10 for the last ten years, I'm still waiting for the damage. And the can for the mower fuel only gets filled once every year or two and yet the B&S engine always starts first go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, January 14, 2013 - 07:29 pm:

I think the point that some folks are missing is simply this.You see the decal on the pump that says it "MAY" contain up to 10% ethenol.That does not mean that every pump has exactly 10%.Those that are getting gas from a pump marked as such and are so happy things are going well,may not be getting but 2.4%.Who knows?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Monday, January 14, 2013 - 08:14 pm:

You may have a point Mack but I've gotten gas all over the U.S. and western Canada and never had an issue whether the gas was fresh to me or sat over the winter in a car or fuel can. I'm not brand picky and shop by either convenience or price depending on how the spirit moves me.

Some day I may have a problem but no trouble so far. Fingers stay crossed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Monday, January 14, 2013 - 11:10 pm:

@ Ted - Those were my original thoughts Ted, but a number of people made strong suggestions to the opposite when I first posted on the subject here a couple years ago - the chief concern was that the Model T 4-banger just wasn't built to withstand the higher compressions that premium gas would bring.

I would much rather burn non-ethonal for a variety of personal reasons if I can get away with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 03:00 am:

Regarding the phenomenon of "phase separation discussed in the video, whereby the ethanol separates from the gasoline and goes to the bottom of the tank where the end of the intake line is located. What is to keep the ethanol from separating in the service station tanks where we pump it into our cars or in the tank trucks that deliver it or the storage tank farms where it is stored. Also, since the ethanol absorbs water, and the water also sinks, it is entirely possible that the E-10 or E-15 you are pumping into your car is composed of mostly ethanol and water with the majority of the very low, inferior octane gasoline suspended above it. Unless the tanks are equipped with an agitators to stir and keep the ethanol suspended, phase separation is a real concern that only make this nightmarish fuel even worse! JIm Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 03:36 pm:

May I once again remind everybody of an old time mitigation of condense water in your tank:
Add some ethanol as it will mix well with the petrol and it will absorb the water and both will together with the petrol be combusted in the engine.
It may not be 10 or 15% of course but just 2-3% (1 liter to a 30 - 50 liter tank). It worked back then - why should it not work now (regarding the water issue)?
And Jim are right - if separation was indeed an issue it would be in the gas tanks and in other storage facilities and give all sorts of problems.
There is just too much hear-sagen in this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 03:45 pm:

Now I looked up the density of ethanol and petrol in Wikipedia (the danish - sorry):
Ethanol's density is 0,789 and petrol from 0,71 - 0,77 - probably dependent on additives and other qualities. Of course if it absorb water, the Ethanol/Water mix will be more dense, but the difference in density is very very small. One thing that may prevent separation is the two substances willingness to blend. Oil and Water will separate (petrol and water will too), but ethanol mix well with petrol.
I admit that separation may be possible if the car sit for very long time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 05:33 pm:

Danial,

Premium gas does not raise compression or burn any hotter than regular gas. It just has a higher octane rating so it can be used in high compression engines without knocking. As the gas air mixture is compressed its temperature rises, a knock occurs when this higher temperature ignites the mixture prematurely. Diesel engines are designed so that the compression is very high and ignites the fuel air mixture. In other words, they are designed to "knock" and are quite noisy as you know.

I agree with you, if I could get ethanol free gas for my Model T,I would use it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 06:20 pm:

Ted - I think what Danial meant was that the availability of premium (higher octane) gasoline would encourage engineers to develop higher compression engines.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 06:27 pm:

1 point made clear to me is when I went out to Oklahoma in 08 I filled up here at a local station that was non ethanol
I got allmost 600 miles out of those 2 tanks of fuel but when I filled up in Tennesee,I did not get that range again the entire trip.
Therefore I may not testify to the cornstarch that some get in their carbs and such,but I can say,it didnt help my gas mileage a bit.so how it is feeseable in the long run,danged if I know.

I reckon if horse pee was combustable we would raise horses for fuel?
They would eat corn and make wiz then we would transport and process it and it would cost us way more in the long run that gas,but Hey we are burning horse wiz! oh BOY!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 06:29 pm:

Btw,I am fighting the flu,so my mind and spelling aint the best tonight!


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