Dusty. Needs new horn bulb. Seller needs help with ID.
If the body is correct to the car, it should be a Model S Runabout. If the trunk were rounded instead of pointed, then Model R Runabout.
It looks like a good restoration to "refresh". I'll put it over on the Early Ford site and we might find more info about the car.
And all this time I thought 3 pedals were unique to the T..
Three pedals and a "lever" but very different to operate.
The first time I was behind our N (with no experience driving Pre T Fords), I about drove our freshly restored N into the side of our shop.
The left pedal is reverse, the middle (transmission) and right pedals (park) are brakes. The lever is low (back) neutral (straight up) and high (forward). We (T drivers) are used to pulling back the hand brake on our Ts to stop and move to neutral, when you pull back on the NRSK, you lock into low. Quite a difference!
The spark & throttle levers are reversed also.
The engine serial number will be a help in figuring out what the car is/was. A quick review shows it appears to have a 1906 to early 1907 Model N seat section – where the top irons come out of the seat rather than up above the seat as the later 1907-1908 Model R, S, and SR as well as 1907-08 N.
The engine if the oiler and cover on the camshaft are original to that engine – is a Model N engine.
The fenders appear to be from a 1908 Model S Roadster rather than from a Model N. They also are not the R & S fenders that were the same on both the R & S cars.
Closer inspection would help us know if the frame originally had the step plat like the Model N or if it was a 1908 Model S Roadster frame that the running board bracket spacing would indicate.
Just like the Ts the N, R, S, and SR had parts that were designed to interchange with the other models.
Upper water outlet on the cylinders appears to be a replacement – but I’m 80% sure that castings are available.
Steering column is a Model T and not an N, R, S, SR – as the rods were exposed all the way down on them.
So much more to look at … so little time. Looks interesting and if the engine and transmission were rebuilt that would be a plus. Note the fenders could easily be changed out – Rootlieb reproduces them etc.
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Three pedals are not unique to Ford. On our club spring tour led by the late John Abbott, I saw a truck with the same three pedals and function as the Model T. This was about 10 years ago in an antique vehicle collection in either Granbury or Weatherford, Texas . I don't remember the make. Others may have more info on non-Ford three pedal cars and trucks.
The cars in that storage shed are all covered with dust and obviously neglected. And that's just not right. So I guess I'm going to have to start dreaming of them being driven down the road because I sure as heck will never afford them.
I CONTACTED THE SELLER AND HE PROVIDED THE ENGINE# 4910 OR 4917, IT WAS "HARD" TO SEE THE LAST DIGIT.
THE HIGHEST ENGINE # FOR MODEL R IS 2546, AND THE HIGHEST FOR MODEL S IS 2335.
THE OILER SHOWN IS MODEL N STYLE. THE POINTED REAR DECK WAS THE SAME FOR MODEL N AND S RUNABOUT.
THE ENGINE # 4917 IS RECORDED IN THE ORIGINAL FORD SALES LEDGER TO HAVE BEEN SHIPPED 5/7/1907 TO Curtis Auto Co. Milwaukee WI.
THERE IS NO DATA FOR ENGINE # 4910 BUT 4906 SHIPPED 5/4 1907.
AS FAR AS I CAN SEE THE CAR IS A 1907 MODEL N RUNABOUT SHIPPED BEGINNING MAY 1907. THE FENDERS AND RUNNING BOARDS MOUNTED IS FROM A MODEL S ROADSTER. THIS IS VISIBLE FROM THEIR SHAPE. THE MODEL N ONLY FEATURED A STEPPING PLATE AND NO RUNNING BOARDS.
O the years a Model N engine might have been switched with R/S car, etc. also, replacement aluminum crankcase s were left unstamped, and the dealer was supposed to stamp the original engine/car number on the replacement.
I know of two Model Ns in Nebraska that have no number stamped on the crankcase s.
Probably the best "test" to determine if the car (chassis) started out as an N or R/S is to look at the frame where the side step brackets should be riveted on (Hap alluded to this a bit above).
If the car was (at least frame) began "life" as an r/S, the three small holes will have rivets in them. Ford chassis were all drilled for step plates, then if the frame was used for R/s cars, the step plate holes were riveted shut, and the running board brackets were drilled (in different locations on the frame.
Welcome to the forum. While this is Anders’ first posting, I have been discussing 1906-1908 Model N,R, S, & SR cars with him via e-mail for a while. He has a nice 1925 drop frame touring – see his profile photo. His conclusion that the engine could only be a Model N is correct based on the engine number as the R, S, and SR models did not go that high, only the Model N production. [For those who don’t remember or haven’t read it before, Ford started with serial number 1 for all four models – i.e. N Runabout, R Runabout, S Runabout, and S Roadster. So there were four of each car type with the numbers 1 to approximately number 2335 (there could have been a few more after that as the records we are using only contain approximately 1 in 4 of the cars sold). ] And of course the oiler and the cap located at the front of the engine are also distinct to the Model N – but are an easily swapped out item – bolt off and bolt on the other Force Feed oiler, camshaft bearing, and pulley and it is set up like the Model R, S, & SR.
I wonder if the frame was originally a 1907 Model N & S frame (they stamped the frame holes the same --- and then added the appropriate step plates or running board brackets.) But the 1907 frame would not have the holes for the holes for the closer spaced Roadster (SR) running board brackets – unless Ford specified that they be stamped in the frame quite a bit earlier than the Roadster came out in Apr 1908. A restorers can take any 1906-1908 N, R, S, or SR frame and by adding or filling in holes make it period correct. I.e. filling in the extra holes on the 1908 frame allows it to be used on the early 1906 Model Ns without the holes showing that it was a later frame. This is also where a little history of the car could answer lots of questions. If the person who restored it had a 1908 Model SR frame that was in much better shape, he may have used it with the N body and engine. Or he may have just drilled some additional holes in the 1907 N frame, removed the step plates and added the running boards and fenders that are designed to fit the 1908 S Roadster. If he used bolts instead of rivets – it would be very easy to tell (note the very early 1906 Fords did use bolts to hold the step plate brackets to the frame but they were replaced with rivets not too long into production [code for I don’t really know the month / year when that occurred but the later N, R, S, and SRs had the step plates or the running board brackets riveted to the frame instead of bolted. ].
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Thank you Hap
Every time I read your postings I learn something new!
Seems like there was a very similar car in Florida discussed on these Forums several years ago. Anybody remember it?
Neat little car. And to think many times over the past two decades I've possibly driven past the storeage barn out at Apache Jct. while visiting my dear departed parents. Would love to have it, but after just acquiring a '25 TT firetruck I'm tapped out! Timing is everything, isn't it?
Is that a T coil box too?
Yes, that appears to be a Heinze style Model T coil box. I could not really tell from the photos that show the coil box – as the angle the photos where taken did not allow me to see if the wires exit the bottom of the coil box like the 1906-1908 Fords or not. But looking at the photo of the left side of the engine it clearly shows the wires are coming through the firewall with the spacing the Model T used rather than under the coil box and through a smaller area of the firewall like the Model N, R, S, and SR used.
Below is a photo courtesy Richard Gould of an unrestored 1908 Model S Roadster firewall. Note the wires from the coil box and timer location.
From Trent Boggess' web site [anyone know where that web site is now?] is a photo of Trent’s 1907 Model N restoration showing the same spark plug wire location/configuration.
Above is the photo of the car for sale and you can easily see the Model T style layout for the coil box insulators and wires coming through the dash. The T style coil box will function fine – and with the hood on, only folks that know the earlier cars will notice the coil box is the later Model T rather than the earlier R, S, or SR. [Note the Model N would have had a Splitdorf coil box rather than the Heinze box – but they are similar in size and again most folks would never know one way or the other.]
While there are some items that are clearly later T items (including the steering column, steering wheel etc.) there are some very correct items such as the engine, radiator, front axle, etc. It could be put back into a very authentic condition by deciding which style car was desired (N, R, S, or SR) and obtaining the appropriate parts. Based on the little I know so far about the car, I would think it could be made into a very authentic N by purchasing the Rootlieb reproduction fenders, obtaining the step plates, etc. Similar to a Model T with parts from multiple years and styles of parts (like the 1924-25 front fenders on Blackie my 1915 cut off) – the parts fit and function fine. But for some of us we would prefer to have the same year range and body range parts on the car – when we can do so. And for other folks – they don’t care one way or the other. And as someone has said before and I agree with them, a driving car with mixed parts is a lot more fun than a parked car sitting for years waiting for all the right parts. You can enjoy the car as it is while you accumulate parts to move it closer to a single year range and body style if that is something the new owner desires to do.
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Thanks, Hap. I'm desiring to own a NLNB eligible (4cyl through '08 or 2cyl through '12) car and plan to purchase something in the next 12 months. So, I'm watching this auction with great interest as a value reference point. The incorrect items on this car should devalue it a bit. I'm curious to see how much. The Buick F that you see in the background of some of the photos sold for a very reasonable price about a month ago.
Why is it right hand drive? Car made for export maybe?
When did Canada start making rhd?
I think all of the NRS cars were RHD
Really? I thought the USA was always LHD. Just as the UK (and Australia by default) have always been RHD.
Were other US cars of that era RHD? When did you change to all LHD?
Both Ford USA and Ford Canada started their production with Right Hand Drive (RHD) for all their normal production. Most of the 1903-1912 cars produced by most automakers in the USA and UK were RHD. See the Horseless Carriage Club site at: http://www.hcca.org/# and you will notice that with the exception of the Model T Fords the majority of the early cars were RHD. (The real early ones had tillers and they could be mounted on the side, front etc.).
Ford made a conscious decision to go to LHD with the introduction of the Model T Ford. [see: http://mtfca.com/books/1909cat.htm 1909 scroll about halfway down to “Control” shows illustration of woman getting out of LHD T vs out of RHD car. ] He did what appears to be a mirror image of the Model N, R, S, & SR intake and exhaust manifolds and moved them to the other side of the engine as part of that move to the LHD. I believe if Ford had kept the steering RHD for the Model T and had been as successful as he was, the majority of cars would have kept RHD. There were other makes prior to Ford that offered LHD – but they did not have the impact Ford did on the automobile market.
First Canadian RHD and first Model T RHD? Excellent question. From memory it appears that initially the Model T was only produced with LHD. There are several threads trying to figure out what was the earliest RHD Model T. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/239346.html?1323849406 or search on “RHD earliest”
For additional information about the Pre-Ts please see the 1903 -1909 Early Ford Registry site at: http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/# and click on the Early Ford Facts button on the top left side then on “The Models.”
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I have learnt something today.
I see they added a close up picture of the side rail and coil box. Nice car, if only......
Ted, was the truck you saw maybe a Galloway?
Thank you for the update. They seller added the photos that clearly show the running board brackets are bolted to the frame rather than being riveted to the frame. From the factory originally except for the very early Ns, the brackets would have been riveted. That is another clue about the car. I also zoomed in and changed the contrast on one of the photos. The headlamp might be hiding it, but I did not see a door on both sides of the hood. The R, S, and SR have a door on both sides of the hood while the N had a door on the carburetor side but usually not on the other side of the hood.
Based on the few currently available clues, I believe there is a good chance the car started off as a Model N Runabout and someone sometime changed the step plate and plow share "N" fenders to the Model S Roadster fenders, running boards, and brackets (they left off the Model S Roaster splash apron).
I wish we had a little more on the history of that car. If the body and engine are original to it, then it would indicate that Ford continued the early style body / top brackets into the 4000 serial number range. That is later than I would have suspected. But it is another area we are hoping to gather additional information about.
Coil box has the correct Heinze B-1 Off B-2 switch and appears to be a reproduction using the later Model T coils. As mentioned before the box appears to have the Model T layout rather than the Model R,S, or SR layout. And the N would have had the Splitdorf but still with the wires coming out the bottom of the box rather than the back of the coil box.
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Auction just ended at eBay at US $30,000 "reserve not met". There were no bids for the last five days.
I allocated my car funds to another source..oh well!!!!
I don't believe the Model S Runabout had splash aprons, just the Roadster (I may be wrong, going from memory )
You are correct the Model S Runabout did not have splash aprons. But in this case it appears that an owner fitted the car (which was likely a Model N Runabout) with the Model S Roadster fenders and running boards but did not add the Model S Roadster splash aprons.
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the same car is out again at eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1907-FORD-MODEL-R-N-S-BARN-FIND-RESTORED-16-TO-18 -YEARS-AGO-ANTIQUE-/261161584977?item=261161584977&ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME:B:S S:US:1123&forcev4exp=true
Now for US $53.000 "buy now button" or best bid.
The best bid last time was $30,000. I'll bid $30,001.
Hope I get it.
Re-listed again, now US $45.000
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-Other-BRASS-1907-FORD-MODEL-R-N-S-BARN-FIND- RESTORED-16-TO-18-YEARS-AGO-ANTIQUE-/261165222531?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3cc ea90a83
Three strikes and out?