When I bought my 1923 Runabout ten years ago or so, it had these sorry looking brackets/spacers to mount the firewall:
Someone said these brackets were the wrong ones. They were intended to be used with a wood firewall. OK, this car is a pile of odd bits so this was just one more item to straighten out.
I ordered a set of brackets from one of the Model T parts suppliers and received these:
These were just the same as the ones I already had so I got on the blower and was told that the ones they sent were indeed the ones needed for the steel firewall!!! OK, I went on to other matters and put these brackets away. Now that the firewall is coming off to be refinished it is time to make this right. From the pictures, can anyone confirm that I have two sets of brackets made for the wood firewalls? I want to get this sorted out and get the proper ones installed.
Vintage Paul, still confused . . .
To me those look like the brackets that are used with the steel firewalls. The brackets used with the wood firewalls should have the part that bolts to the firewall set further back. Not sure why a wood spacer would be needed if those are the correct brackets. There is a little information on the two different brackets on this thread. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/6/1639.html
Those look like the cowl brakets for a 26-27..
Here is an older thread with pictures showing both types: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/6/1639.html
26-27 brackets have square holes for carriage bolts
Thanks guys, I'm still very confused on this. The hole on my bracket does line up like the one in the picture on the link shown but there is still that gap between the bracket & the firewall. Don mentioned the 26/27 brackets are different. Does anyone have pictures of the proper ones for a '23 with a steel firewall? What am I looking for?
Does your hood fit ok? I was thinking the body may be rewooded and the body mounts to the frame placed differently from when it was new..?
No, the hood does not fit very well at all. It is low steel but has a gap so large that the hold downs can only be fastened at the front. The hood itself seems to have less bend in the center panels than it should. Sometime at a club get together, I'll try my hood on somebody else's car and vice versa.
Thanks John, mine look like the one in the center of the photo on the link that you sent. Does that mean I definitely have the ones for the 26/27? If so I just need to find a set of brackets made for the early steel 23/24/25 cars?
Yes, it would appear that you have the 26-27 brackets.
Here is a picture I saved from a precious thread. The one on the right is the pair you will need to find.
Does anyone have a set of the early steel firewall brackets they would like to sell or trade for the set in the pictures at the top of this thread? Please ping me off list if so!
Do you know if your car is an original car or built from parts. It appears to be a low radiator car with the 24-25 style windshield. I wonder if it might have had a wood firewall which was replaced with steel?
You could be on to something there. The hood sill shown in Paul's first picture is the earlier version. The Canadian T's also had the slant windshield a lot earlier than the U. S. produced cars.
Paul, Here is a link that may help you determine if your Roadster is a low radiator car.
Some time in 23 the cars came with the slant windshield, low radiator and one man tops.
The brackets for steel firewalls have round holes for the firewall. Some have square holes, most likely for the wood firewalls.
From what I understand, late in 1922 the runabouts started to come with the slant windshield but still retained the low radiator. Mine was made from a pile of parts but does have this body. The steel firewall was introduced sometime after the new body but before the high steel radiator came out. My car could have had either wood or steel. Seeing is is a bitsa, I decided to rationalize it into an early '23 and have sought parts to finish it as such. I would like to find a set of firewall brackets to go with the steel firewall.
I have one new one, and one broken original for a steel firewall.
Pictures tomorrow, sometime....
It can get a little confusing as so many Model T Parts look similar and often fit various year cars. In the case of the firewall / dash brackets, the ones you purchased from the vendor and are shown below are the correct ones for the steel firewalls 1923 (low cowl); 1924-25 high cowl; and they swap sides and are used on the 1926-27 cars.
Below are those brackets on a 1924 firewall (photo courtesy of Craig Sutton). Note the bracket goes over the frame.
Above is a 1926 with the same bracket but they are swapped left to right from the 1923-25 installation. Notice they no longer go over the frame but they go out away from the frame. Photo courtesy of Jim Patrick.
Below is the 1923-27 dash bracket notice it says left for metal firewall but for 1926-27 it says RH for Right Hand.
Note that Phil Mino posted some excellent photos and information that should help you with this problem. Please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/26547.html?1175373132#POST52371 If you measure from the front of your frame to the center of the first and second holes that the dash bracket bolts to the side of the frame they should measure 25 1/2 inches and 26 31/32. See Phil’s photo at that posting. I would thing you will find the holes are in the correct spots.
And measuring from the front of the fame to the back of the firewall (that would be the same for the wood or the metal dash) on a new Model T it would have measured 27 9/32 inches.
So if you take those measurements and find the holes in the frame are in the correct location and you find that the back of your firewall is 27 9/32 then you most likely have the wooden dash brackets and you can change them out for the proper metal dash brackets that you purchased. From your posting you say they are the same bracket – but just for fun – try one side and see if it fits correctly and no longer needs the wood block.
If you take the measurements and find that the back of the firewall is an extra 1/2 inch or so further back then your body is probably mounted about a 1/2 further back than it should be.
“IF” the 1915-1925 body is mounted correctly the center of the body bracket bolt hole on the frame is 9 or 9 1/16 depending on the drawing looked at, from the back of the firewall.
Illustration below is from the Model T Service bulletins see fig 234 in the Aug 1, 1920 edition (page 171 in the book “Model T Ford Service Bulletin Essentials.”
larger print below:
Please let us know what you discover in your measurements. There is also a very slim chance that you have the holes in the frame in the wrong location.
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Thanks Hap, your post and links were very helpful. It took several readings to understand what the implications were but I eventually cottoned on. I'll go out and measure the hole locations in the frame and the distance from the front of the frame to the front of the body (the firewall is out right now) and see if it all measures as it should. If it does and the brackets are still too short to reach without spacers it will be time to put the thinking cap on again . . .
I got out the tape and took some measurements today. First, the frame has the elongated holes for the hood hold downs making it high steel, mid 1923 and later. The four rivets on the handbrake quadrant indicate it was made before the two rivet ones came out in 1925 sometime. The body is low steel but slant windshield so this frame SHOULD be suitable.
The distance from the front of the frame to the first firewall bracket hole is listed as 25 1/2". I measure 25 5/8 plus or minus. The second hole was listed as 26 31/32, I got 26 15/16. Both of these holes seem close enough for measurement error to account for the difference.
Where we appear to have gone afoul is with the firewall. The back of the firewall is listed at 27 9/32. My body (the firewall is off the car) is about 27 9/16 aft of the front of the frame.. Even more confusing, the body looks like it tapers rearward as it goes up! I'll sit a square on the frame and see if this really is the case. Here is a picture of one of the firewall brackets propped in place on a couple of loose bolts:
I'll mock this up with the new brackets and the firewall in place next weekend to see if anything makes any sense. I'm sure confused now!
What is the measurement from the center of the hole in the front body mount (on the frame) to the back of the firewall? And what is the distance from that same hole to the firewall bracket? I would guess about 8 1/2 inches to the back of the firewall and about 9 1/16 inches to the bracket. If so then I think your body may have been rewooded and they put the body about 1/2 inch further back by moving ALL the body brackets forward approximately 1/2 inch.
That will actually give you about a 1/2 inch of extra leg room. And with the roadster there isn’t the problem of trying to get the rear fender to line up on the body panel and to clear the rear door. That is just a theory at the moment – but I suspect that is what you will discover.
Is there a local car that you can compare your car to? Any 1915 to 1925 should work. The body brackets and body and the relationship to the firewall should be the same. The only difference would be the wooden firewall brackets would be a little further forward because of the thickness of the wooden firewall.
I’m sure you will figure it out. Good luck and please let us know what you discover.
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For the rest of the story …. this discussion continues at the new thread: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/340058.html?1360117387 . Please post information there so it will download faster for folks.
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