Still no start

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Still no start
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ronnie Wehba on Friday, January 18, 2013 - 06:24 pm:

after about 3 weeks got to mess with my T,the battery is showing 6.18 volts the coils show a nice spark when the hand crank is turned to fire them,the plugs show a nice spark also,but when i push starter button the spark at the plugs almost goes away,and yes have gas and I cannot hand crank it either.it just will not fire! help suppose to be in 60's this weekend


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tman - Right Coast on Friday, January 18, 2013 - 07:16 pm:

What is the voltage while it is cranking the battery might be low on amperage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Friday, January 18, 2013 - 07:57 pm:

Here is a chart showing approximate % charge for flooded lead acid batteries. Before measuring voltage the battery must be at rest for at least 4 hours (no charging - no load).



All that being said your 6.18 volts should be more than enough to hand crank your T. Probably enough to start with the starter, provided all the starter cables are properly sized, there's no corrosion on the connections and the starter itself is in good shape.

I would be concerned about not being able to hand crank. Have you checked compression, gas and proper spark at the proper time? If all are there it HAS to start!

Does the starter turn over quickly when engaged?

Cheers
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, January 18, 2013 - 08:28 pm:

A couple of things. One is the condition of your battery. You can get a high voltage reading from worn out battery, but it will not provide enough current. However if it continues to crank, I would not think that is the problem. Check the wiring between the battery cable at the starter switch to the coil box. All connections along the way must be tight and clean. If the car you are trying to start is the 27 pickup the connection should go from the starter switch to the terminal block and from the terminal block to the ammeter and ignition switch then through the switch to the coil box. Have you tryed to start the car on magneto. It should start with the starter with the switch on mag. If it still won't start, you have another problem.

Have you checked the ignition timing? Have you substituted coils from another good running T? How is your timer? And what kind of timer do you have?
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, January 18, 2013 - 09:15 pm:

Ronnie,

1. Have you ever had it running? If not please see "Taking the T out of mothballs" at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/8538.html

2. If so and it now does not run what changed? Did you have the engine overhauled? Did you replace the timing gear and/or the timer roller? Etc,

3. When you say "I cannot hand crank it either." Do you mean you cannot turn the engine over with the hand crank or that when you turn the engine over with the hand crank the engine will not start? I am assuming when you turned it over by hand and saw the spark plugs sparking you had the plugs out of the head but still grounded.

4. Have you contacted any of the local clubs near you? A knowledgeable T person could save you a lot of frustration as they helped you trouble shoot what is wrong. For contact information please see the club listings at: http://mtfca.com/clubpages/chapters.htm and http://www.modelt.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=15 For a cold beverage you can obtain a lot of help (ok if it is cold there then a hot beverage).

5. What is your experience level with the Ts? I.e. have you checked the things mentioned in the "Engine Fails to Start" at: ENGINE FALLS TO START in the summary at: http://mtfca.com/books/21manual.htm ?

6. Good luck and don't get frustrated. It ran when new and it will run again.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Friday, January 18, 2013 - 10:20 pm:

#1.......check the connections at the starter foot switch.
I had a similar problem and when I went around feeling for hot spots (poor connections) I nearly burned my finger on the starter switch wire end that feeds the ignition.
I cleaned it up and that was that.
Check all the connections on the firewall terminal strip too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ronnie Wehba on Saturday, January 19, 2013 - 07:10 am:

thanks guys,looks like a good day here in texas to mess with it,was running fine just started to miss and drove it home ,put in garage checked spark with a plug out and grounded, when i said no hand start i meant i have not actually tried to hand start it yet." not really ready to try that yet" the mag does not work either,,thanks will start looking at each and every item,,but still lovin' it


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Rowles on Saturday, January 19, 2013 - 09:55 am:

How old is the battery? Have you been maintaining the battery at a high level of charge (specific gravity of electrolyte)? If you don't keep the battery specific gravity up to a high value, the plates get covered with metal sulfates and will not allow electrons to flow properly with resultant low voltage and amperage when loads are applied. This is a big problem on vehicles that are not run often and usually not a problem at all for vehicles run for an hour or more at least weekly. If you don't have a "trickle charger", get your battery tested and attach a trickle charger when the car is used infrequently. Also keep an eye on electrolyte liquid level every couple months to be sure acid/water is always covering the plate surfaces. A well-maintained battery should last 3 to six years, but a battery that has been allowed to sit dormant and not-fully-charged may be weak within a year of purchase date.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, January 19, 2013 - 12:07 pm:

If all else is well, the car should require only enough juice from the battery to buzz the coils. The starter should be irrelevant. In other words, a T in proper adjustment should hand start on the first pull. Often this isn't the case because something's amiss, but it's a goal to shoot for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCWnmPrxKo0&list=UUFVx528ORtpDgCPJXbFCA6w&index=4 1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, January 19, 2013 - 01:19 pm:

If everything is correct, starting with the hand crank should be no problem. If 8 year old Joey can do it, then anyone should be able to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FojdrSmxkgQ

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, January 19, 2013 - 03:41 pm:

There is probably no spark at all when the battery is put under a load from the starter, either because the battery is useless or the starter is shorted and drops the voltage to almost zero. The battery voltage has to be measures when the starter switch is pressed to be of any significance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Saturday, January 19, 2013 - 09:25 pm:

Check "going to run the Snow Bird" and check your timer. This is what I found. Good luck.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ronnie Wehba on Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 07:03 am:

had battery on trickle all nite, after church gonna start at cables take loose clean ,check all connections remove and clean carb, check timeing ,,RETARD timeing and try a hand start!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 09:02 am:

I think your on the right track Ronnie!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 09:07 am:

Ronnie, before you start taking anything apart, do the voltage test mentioned above at the starter while cranking. Good troubleshooting starts with diagnosis before repair.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlesHebert on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 09:55 am:

Ron...have you done a compression test on all the cylinders???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ronnie Wehba on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 06:39 pm:

got called out to work ,we have long hours shut downs so may be a day or two before i can mess with the t


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 11:28 am:

Guess what? Yesterday I took one of my 3 Model T's out for a spin. It hadn't been run for about a month, so before I started it, I put the battery charger on it for about an hour and then took off the charger and got in and it started right up. I drove it a few miles on magneto and then put it into the garage. After I had turned it off, I decided I wanted to move it over about a foot, so I went to start it. I turned the key to batt and the coils buzzed. I hit the starter and it didn't do anything. Then I noticed the coils stopped buzzing so I got out to hand crank and found the coils still wouldn't buzz when I turned the crank. No horn or lights either!

Then I put the charger on it for about 15 minutes and the starter spun just fine and the coils buzzed, and the horn honked! I came in and didn't touch it again. Today, I plan to check it out again, because we are planning to use it on a tour for 4 days week after next.

Here's what I don't know: I don't know what would have happened if I hadn't put the charger on first. Because I just charged it before trying to start it, so the battery could be worn out, or it could be a loose connection. I did notice while I was driving the generator was charging about 5 amps, so? Hope to find the problem so I won't have to worry about it on the trip. We will have 20 cars and two trouble trucks along, so I won't panic, but our car is usually very dependable.

Ronnie, I hope to find out what is the problem today. It could be the same thing troubling you.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 12:09 pm:

That sounds like a connection that opens up under load, and it could be inside the battery. You need to find that problem before the tour! If it's a bad connection, either inside the battery or elsewhere, and it opens up while you're driving, you could fry your generator. That will cost a lot more than a new battery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 03:07 pm:

Well! this morning I went out and found the problem. It took a good light to find it. I have a Roadster, and the battery is under the turtle back in a very difficult place to get to. I had to get a 8x10 block of wood to stand on because I have short legs. A good light and then started wiggling the battery cables. The ground strap would wiggle without wiggling the battery. I could see what I couldn't feel. Recently I had replaced that ground strap and when I tightened it felt tight and I didn't want to break off the battery post, so I stopped. The new terminal had not been pinched enough to make a tight connection at the battery. The post and terminal looked clean, but just in case I sanded them off a bit. So I took it off the battery and used two wrenches to get it so tight it wouldn't fit the battery, and then loosened it up until I could get it on the post, then tightened until snug. A good look with the light to be sure it was tight. It worked fine without even charging the battery, and I ground away at the starter with the ignition off just to be sure. The starter was strong. It started up and I drove it a ways, and it purred like a kitten. Fortunately, the generator still works!

Ronnie, I suspect that you have a similar problem. Either at the battery, the ground connection on the frame, or at the starter switch. Or it could also be a bad connection within the battery, as Peter suggested, which would be harder to find.
Norm


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