Tie rod bolts: which is correct?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Tie rod bolts: which is correct?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 02:11 pm:

I suspect my roadster is one of the many put-together 1915's. That doesn't bother me. I'll also tolerate some anachronisms dictated by safety or my own cheapness, so I'll keep the under-axle wishbone and 'll use the $8 oiler set, not the $90 one. I intend to drive this car, not just roll it on and off a trailer. Still, I want to use the right 1915 parts as much as I can. That brings us to these tie rod bolts that were both on the car. The one on the left has a 3/4" head and an 11/16" castle nut. The one on the right has an 11/16" head and a 5/8" nut. Which is correct for 1915?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 02:18 pm:

Neither. The correct one for the 15 has a very unique oiler with a pull spring in the middle of the cap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 02:37 pm:

And what size head and nut does it have? If I come across one that doesn't happen to have the oiler, I want to be able to ID it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 05:58 pm:

Steve -- Here are some of the '15-type tie rod bolts with the "manhole" oiler. The cap of the oiler is held in place by a spring which is anchored down inside the bolt. They don't have a hinge like the later ones.

m.h.

mh2

One is missing its cap but still has the spring. No two of these are exactly alike, I suspect made by different manufacturers. None has Ford script, so I don't know which (if any) is/are what came on the cars originally. Maybe Ford used different ones depending upon where they got them. The two black-painted ones have 3/4" heads, while all the others are 11/16". They all take an 11/16" castle nut. The two 3/4" ones have differently-shaped heads (flat on top, not tapered like the others), so I suspect that they are not right. (But I don't know for sure.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 06:34 pm:

Mike;
I don't think any of those are correct. Maybe so, but on a '14 to '16 the cap is a twist type and turns to allow the oil to be put in.
Wish I could post pic.
Lang's catalogue page 26 part no. 3817.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 06:48 pm:

Richard,

It is seldom as black and white as we would like. Those threaded twist oilers fit more than the tie rod bolts. Note on page 27 of the Lang's 2012 catalog they have a note with the 2718A tie rod bolt set. They list them 1911-16 and they have the thread and the twist oiler but the note says: "(1915-1916 original used "man-hole" oilers which are no longer available. These will work in their place.)"

That note is not listed for in the online catalog or at least I did not see it.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 08:55 pm:

I have a small stash of NOS man-hole covers. They are steel as I already used up the brass ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 09:48 pm:

Jack -- you are wealth of great parts!

For Steve -- I believe Royce is correct that neither of those two tie rod bolts would have originally come on a 1915-16.

For Mike -- of the "man hole" tie rod bolts that you have is the one without the "man hole" cover machined that way or is the top part of the "man hole" oiler pressed into the tie rod bolt? Or do any of the other bolts have the part that holds the "man hole" cover machined as part of the bolt?

I'm 80% sure from re-reading Trent's "Dearborn Report for 1/7/99" that the tie rod bolts for the 1915 - 1916s would have originally been supplied with the "man hole" style covers but that they would NOT have been a pressed in style. Instead they would have been a permanent part of the the tie rod bolt.

Unfortunately the links to Trent's Model T web page no longer work for me. But the dates for the changes are listed in Bruce's (RIP) on-line Encyclopedia at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/I-O.htm#oil1 see the Oilers section. Where it says:

07-24-14 Spindle bolt redesigned to incorporate a built-in oiler

So much more to still discover. In the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/27342.html I mentioned I needed to send a note to Trent asking him permission to use the data and photos. I still need to do that (or he may have replied already and I forgot what he said). Note a more complete description of the "oilers" apparently taken from Trentís Dearborn Report and therefore also the tie rod bolts is in Bruce's CD "Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia" filed under "oilers."

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 10:06 am:

I have one of those tie rod bolts around here somewhere. It is like the one on the right in the bottom photo, and has a brass top connected to that spring. If I run across it, you can have it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 09:05 pm:

Hap -- I'm pretty sure all of these have pressed-in oilers. The oiler part is sheet metal, not a machined part of the bolt. I don't think I've ever seen any which were machined as one unit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 09:58 pm:

Steve,

I'm not saying that they used it all the time as there sure seems to be lots different...

The Ford Standard for a 1/2-20 thread castellated nut was 3/4" across flats x 9/16" high with a 3/16" deep U groove.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 10:38 pm:

But the thread on these bolts is 7/16-20. The standard castle nut for that is 11/16 across the flats. That 5/8 nut is the oddball here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 11:23 pm:

After looking at the pictures several times, I have a question. How is the right hand bolt in my picture different from the 1915 bolts in Mike's pictures? The oilers are a red herring. I understand perfectly that they have different oilers in them. But how are the bolts different? If there is a difference, maybe somebody can explain what it is, because I'm not seeing it. So far, I've seen just two basic kinds of bolts. One has an 11/16" head with a taper above the flats. Among bolts of that type there's some variation in the tapers. The other has a 3/4" head without the taper. The original question remains. Which is correct for 1915? Based on Mike's pictures, I'll go with the tapered ones and try to find two with the same taper.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, January 21, 2013 - 11:37 pm:

Steve,

Call it late night transposition or after 'Jack'. :-)

I'm not saying that they always used their own standard, but...

The Ford in house Standard for the 7/16 WAS 5/8" across flats, 29/64" high with a 1/8" deep U groove.

Now, to make it even more confusing, Ford issued 2 part numbers for the 7/16-20 castellated nut. I've not looked at the actual drawings to see if one was a different material, or size, or whatever to have '2' differing part numbers...the other part number was T3606.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Tuesday, January 22, 2013 - 01:41 am:

Just to add to the discussion: All of the 8 tie rod bolts I have the manhole cover is sheet steel pressed in. All the bolt tops are tapered. There are two different size caps. As this was a change between the early brass twist oilers and the later 1917 up flip top, maybe Ford used several suppliers? Any manhole top might be correct. Just my 2 cents.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, January 22, 2013 - 11:10 am:

We'll probably never know for sure, but I suspect that Dennis is correct that no one type of bolt is the only correct one. Ford was in full swing getting cars built and sold in the '15-'16 model years, so they needed many thousands of these parts during that 2-year period in which these were used. There probably were a few companies making similar parts for other car manufacturers, some bolts with large caps and some with small ones. Those small details wouldn't have mattered to Ford, who was wanting to get cars completed and out the door.

The change to the cheaper-to-make hinged "flip-top" oiler in '17 might have saved Ford a penny a car, which is not chump change when taken times a few million.


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