5 Ball Carb for 1910 T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: 5 Ball Carb for 1910 T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 09:39 pm:

This showed up after the Hilton Head Concours that Rob Heyen and I went to.

It came from Hershey a few years ago to this owner for his gorgeous 10 but after three trips to a repair guy it still leaked and looked pretty nasty plus it just didn't run very well, rough idle, etc. Notice the black Permatex on the inlet fittings. Not a good way to fix a leaking inlet. The seat was also smeared with Permatex in an effort to get it to quit leaking. As you can see the fitting on the bowl was bent and turned out to be cracked which is where most of the leak was coming from. All the inside threads were wrapped with yellow Teflon tape in an effort to stop the leaks.



Here it is after a newly machined throttle shaft and button, resurfacing of the ball seats, new 7/16 th correct weight brass balls, new custom needle and seat, Rubber Ducky float, new throttle shaft and bushings, correct adjustment of the primer and a bunch more plus a little cleanup. Ready for the next show or touring.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 09:43 pm:

just smear it with silicone man! that fixes everything!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 09:52 pm:

Nice work Stan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 10:13 pm:

Pretty sexy and 5 brass balls too!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 12:07 am:

And here are the votes from the jury:
Technical performance: 10+
Artificial Impression: 10+

Ahhh maybe I watch too much ice skating in the television.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 12:23 am:

I thought that in ice skating, six was a perfect score?
Beautiful work again, Stan!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 02:07 am:

I'll bite, what's a Rubber Ducky float?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 04:05 am:

Do you have another one spare for my "Gorgeous 10" ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 06:56 am:

You've convinced me Stan, I'm going to have to send you mine to fix :^)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Mullis on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 08:14 am:

Stan you are truly an artist.

Please explain what a "rubber ducky float" is. Or better yet, post a photo.

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 11:18 am:

It's no big secret, Rubber Ducky (Floats like a Rubber Ducky) is the brand name of the new floats some guy is making for Linkert and other early carbs that are impervious to modern fuel, ethanol and other crap in the gas we get. They are expensive but fit, work and don't deteriorate. Wholesale is about $45.00, they were developed for the Linkert carbs that were used on virtually every early Harley Davidson & Indian carb. Most are too small for T stuff. I've talked to him about making T ones, he's not interested because of the low volume of sales. (His take on it, not mine)

Alan, I wish I had half a dozen of them, I could sell at least two or three with a phone call. They are impossible to find. This is only the second 5 Ball for a T I've worked on. I did one several years ago.

Michael, I took some pics of the needle/seat and float setup last night, I'll post them later.

Most of these old carbs have been tortured pretty badly over the years and trying to get them to quit leaking is a challenge. A lot of the brass has bad spots in it and trying to get a smooth surface for the gaskets to seat against is a real challenge. On this one, the bottom of the bowl where the copper crush washer is supposed to stop the fuel from leaking was worn and pitted from a hundred years of corrosion and who knows what used for gaskets to try to seal it. It had to be ground flat, the bowl was a little warped so the top of the bowl was not flat & had to be machined flat, the side of the bowl where the seat fits is a little warped from a hundred years of being whacked with whatever would jiggle the float to either get gas to flow or shut it off, the hole for the throttle shaft was, like all of them, worn egg shaped, the throttle shaft was worn .030 so it would never idle because of the air leak around the shaft -- made a new throttle shaft and bushed the holes -- and the boss where the adjustment rod screws down through to adjust the fuel had been re-tapped to 1/4 x 28 instead of 1/4 x 32 as it should be. I made a new shaft using the needle from a later carb, ground the tip to the proper taper, re-tapped the threads and made a new button for the top as the old one had holes that were worn badly. It is very time consuming to do this, I probably have 20-25 hours in this one. Came out OK, tho.

In the day, a drip or two of gas was no big deal, most carbs dripped a little gas from one place or another. Now everybody wants them absolutely drip free. I make every effort to use as many of the original components as I can to keep the carb authentic but sometimes just can't. On these Kingston bowls, there is not much room to put in a modern needle and seat that will work and actually flow enough gas to run the engine. (This one had a needle from a Tecumseh lawn mower in the original seat) I had to machine a piece to install in the inlet so I could install a needle and seat that would work (I use Edelbrock USA made needles and seats) then restored the original 1910 fittings and reworked a modern brass fitting so the fuel line attaches with the original fitting instead of having to use smaller modern fittings. A sharp eyed judge would notice that the inlet has been changed but I couldn't figure any other way to do it.

Off to the shop I go. I'll post a picture of some Rubber Ducky floats later.

Thanks for the nice comments.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 12:38 pm:

Stan to bad you didn't know I made some of the odd parts for these early 5 ball carbs especially the goofy inlet elbow with the odd thread sizes. Had to make up a one off tap just to finish these. Sorry all gone now just another one of my dead horses project. Bob

carb parts

carb parts
Brass arms and early elbow
carb parts

Float hinge arms

carb parts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 12:56 pm:

I sure could have used one of those little tapered seat adapters with the 1/8 pipe thread and the nut that screwed on to the carb. Also that elbow with the odd ball thread. I went through every brass fitting I own -- and I have a lot of them -- trying to find one that would fit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 01:19 pm:

Stan,

Looks great. Do your other customers realize you'll fly across the country, and perform maintenance on your rebuilt carbs ? :-)

By the way, Francis Ransley told me he uses a 5 ball on his Model K. He said it is a bigger version that was made for stationary engines. So, if you ever come across one........

See you at Chickasha,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 01:24 pm:

Thanks,
I had a gorgeous one with an 1 1/4 throat. Sold it to a guy in Iowa about three months ago to get money to go to Savannah. =)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 01:29 pm:

I had to make this odd tap out of annealed O1, cut the thread and harden it after or pay $125 for a special made up one. For the tapered seat I had to broach it with a 3/18" broach on the ID so it could be tightened into the elbow. I can't figure out how it got tightened in with just a smooth ID and OD as in the original.

I also was making up the 5, yes 5 different adjustment tops that were used on these early styles. Some were threaded on with a special 1/4"-32 tpi and no not a 1/4"-28. Others were reamed to a 1/4"ID and pinned to the shaft and then there's the 4 different knurles being used on the different makes. Straight vertical knurl, single angle knurl, small diamond knurl and a larger diamond knurl. Should have taken a bottom side shot to show this. Bob

carb parts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 02:17 pm:

I found the shot of the adjustment tops that I reproduced and there were 5 different knurles used not 4. Bob



carb parts

Bottom shots.

carb parts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 03:13 pm:

Those are great, Bob! Are they available from you or elsewhere?? Of all the tools I have and can find, my knurling tool is one I can't. I bought it 40 years ago with my first little 6 inch Atlas lathe and have had it in the tooling drawer ever since. I spent two hours looking for it and still can't find it. I think it must have disappeared somehow when I traded lathes or moved stuff around in the shop. It's possible the girl who worked for me who thought I had way too much stuff so she and her boyfriend should take some of it with them once in awhile took it but that has been several years ago and I'm pretty sure I've used it since then. I'll have to get another one and then I'll find my old one.

If you look at the knob I made for this carb you can see that I didn't really knurl it, I cut fine grooves on it with a threading tool, then hand filed the vertical lines.

Some of those knobs are relieved on the bottom side, too. I should have done that to this one but never thought of it until I got it done.

Nice work. I'd sure like to visit your shop sometime.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 09:39 pm:

Rubber Ducky float



Running on the test engine. Yes, that is a piece of rare and highly sought after genuine John Deere USA made baling wire, the standard fix for many Model T problems, holding the carb level.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 10:30 pm:

Stan, Will you tell us how you make rough cast brass shiny or is that a trade secret? Blast with walnut shells?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 10:50 pm:

Better have a good supply of the bailing WIRE Stan.......hard to say how much longer Deere will be building wire tie bailers.......but, yes, they still do!

http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/zmags/agriculture/online_brochures/hay_forage/ba lers/9_series_round_balers.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 10:55 pm:

Nah, I have a couple belt sanders with very fine, very worn belts on them. I have two flap sanders with 320 grit 3 inch wheels turning 1750 and 3450. I use a wire wheel with .006 stainless steel wire turning 3450. A lot of time sanding and polishing.

Things like the caps, I turn in the lathe and polish them with a very fine bastard file and the polish them with wet or dry paper while they are spinning. I put a lot of time into doing it but maybe not as much as you'd think. It probably only takes me two or three minutes to resurface a cap.

I do bead blast, I never, ever change the bead; it is like blasting with glass dust. I just add more bead when the cabinet gets low.

I also have a buffing setup but I seldom buff anything. Buffing tends to take the edges off and makes a mess in the shop. Even worse than all the rest of the stuff I breathe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 11:04 pm:

Craig, I had a little 116W John Deere wire tie baler for a couple years. That's the one that puts the bales out the side and puts four twists on every bale. John Deere's first automatic tie baler and the first wire tie baler that didn't leave a clip of wire from the tie. I foolishly sold it and the guy won't sell it back to me even tho it is just setting outside rotting away. It had a little Wisconsin 4 cylinder on it and was a Rube Goldberg looking thing but it sure was fun to watch it bale.

Back to the carburetor. It wouldn't idle because of the air leaks around the throttle shaft and because the balls were worn as much as .020 out of round and the seats were pretty worn, too. Lots of air getting by the balls. The test setup is on a Ford 600 tractor. It started on the second or third turn over and will idle down to where you can count the firing. Revs up great and ran fine on my power test (put the tractor in gear, hold the brake and let the clutch out, see if it dies or pulls.) Sometimes I run the tractor up the street but didn't do it today. The carb is in a box on the way to Florida in time for a car show down there somewhere the first weekend in February. Beans on the table for me, good carb for the owner.


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