Does anybody have a high resolution image of this 1912 top diagram that they can share?
Something cleaner with the legible dimensions would be great.
: ^ )
From memory (that's dangerous) -- I think that was published in one of the "Model T Times." If anyone has the issue number and/or month and year -- that could help speed up finding it (or if they know it is not in there). I'll keep an eye out as I think I have seen it with in the last year.
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Keith, Langs sells that rear riser board we talked about. Part #7940RBR.
The same picture, blurry [1912 touring top, after first 15,000 production], is printed in Model T Times, NO. 323, Jan/Feb 2003, p. 20
Scanned the picture, didn't help at all.
Here are some photos of the "rear bow riser" I made:
looking up from folded position:
from the top/front:
The notes I have from my original top show that "riser" as 38" long and 9/16" at the thick side. The "riser" on another 1911 I saw was 43" long. I compromised and I made mine 40" long.
Note on the photo that Dan posted on the right there is a dimension of 7/8" "rise" across the top of the back bow. I won't argue over 1/16"
Also notice that although there are no dimensions for the heights of bows #2 and #4, it looks as if the height are the same!
Does anyone have any insight to this?
"Also notice that although there are no dimensions for the heights of bows #2 and #4, it looks as if the height are the same!"
Did you mean bows 2 and 3?
This blueprint confirms what I suspected about the relative heights of bows #2 and #3. The original bows 2 and 3 on my 1911 are with 1/4" of being the same height. Very similar overall profile to this blueprint. I have seen Vince's diagram, and it appeared to my eyes that his dimension for bow 2 was too short and it should be about the same height as the next bow back, #3. Here is his diagram:
Yes. I mean #2 and #3.
When you say your bows are the within 1/2" of the same height, are you measuring from the pivot point, or the body line? The bracket from the body to the top socket of the front are about 1-1/2" and the bracket in the back is about 2".
My #2 bow currently measures 31" as measured from the PIVOT to the TOP of the bow. My #3 is 32" from the PIVOT to the top of the bow, which makes my #3 bow 1-1/2" higher than #2.
Looking at original photos of 1911 and 1912 cars of the era, they do, indeed, look close to the same overall height.
Here is a 1911 that the #2 and #3 bows look pretty even:
(Judging by the back window shape, this might be a replacement top)
However, this one looks higher in back than the front:
Here is a 1912 that the #2 and #3 bows look pretty even:
If I am going to reduce the height of my #3 bow, now is the time to do it.
Hmmm..... What to do, what to do... ???
forgot a picture...
I am going to have to amend my impression that bows 2 and 3 are close to the same height, as measured from the body line.
My initial measurements were taken from the pivot points of bows 2 and 3. In that case, my bow 3 is 1/4" taller than bow 2.
But, after some careful measuring, bow 2 is 3/4" shorter than bow 3, AS MEASURED FROM THE TOP OF THE BODY LINE. So, it turns out that Vince's measured difference of 3/4" between bows 2 and 3 is pretty good after all. I think the scaling of his diagram makes it look like the number 2 bow is significantly shorter by more than 3/4".
Keith, What do you think is the correct measurement of the fourth bow overhang? Vinces' drawing shows only 2 1/2" and the drawing from the T Times shows 4 1/2". Judging from your excellent pictures of original cars, it looks to me like the rear curtain follows the same angle as the rear seat back. I wonder if the earlier step side bodies used more overhang than the later slab side bodies?
Good information, does anyone have anything in the way of drawings measurements on the same subject for a 1911-12 roadster top ?
I just ordered my top kit this week, now I got to get going on fitting my new bows and start getting ready for installation.
I have set the "obsolete" photo up on my CAD system and adjusted it to a scale that I can use.
(96" = 2438mm) I can now determine most of the measurements give or take a mm or 2 due to the fuzzyness of the lines. The rear overhang reads 116mm (4.566").
That is great! Any chance of you adding numbers (original and yours) and posting/printing it? I don’t know if that would be a 10 minute job or a 10 day job – but it would make a great reference for the future. And of course the note Vince (RIP) had on the 1911 touring top drawing above where he stated - "…all tops are different -- strive for relationship of bow and orientation rather than exact measurements.” They were not made on a computerized machine back then so there were a lot of minor variations – but they all fit and functioned.
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not 10 mins or 10 days, may be 10 hours.
working on it now, hope to have it pretty well done by the end of the weekend. (Also need to put the front of my speedster engine back together for the following weekend). I have "help" in the way of my 10yo grandson for the weekend.
Can someone take some photos (straight on) of the various connections. If I am going to draw them they may as well look correct. When I am joining my lines I have the drawing stretched right out so that each pixel is about 6mm square on my screen. It would be easier if I could see what I am trying to draw.
I should be able to take some pictures for you. With a tripod and decent camera. Send me a private message from this forum and include your email. -- Ward
thank you - my email address is included in my profile.
Ha! I should have looked at your profile. Pictures on the way.
FROM THE OBSOLETE DRAWING:- The height of bows 2 & 3 are the same measured off the frame. The top of the body is not parallel with the frame.
"FROM THE OBSOLETE DRAWING:- The height of bows 2 & 3 are the same measured off the frame. The top of the body is not parallel with the frame."
That is what I expected. On my original bows the number 2 and 3 bows are 1/4 inch from being the same. Some warpage has occurred over the past 100 years. When new, they were likely very close to being the same height FROM THE FRAME.
Forgot to say the previous image is property of the Henry Ford Museum, posted here under my license.
Ward, When your top is folded, do the tops of bows #2 & #3 line up? When #2 is in the folded position its pivot point is the same as #3 pivot point. If the bows are the same length they will line up when folded. Also, when folded, the pivot points for bows #1 & #4 are both 1 3/8" above bows #2 & #3 pivot points. That means if bows #1 & #4 line up when folded, bows #1 & #4 are the same length.
"Ward, When your top is folded, do the tops of bows #2 & #3 line up? When #2 is in the folded position its pivot point is the same as #3 pivot point. If the bows are the same length they will line up when folded. Also, when folded, the pivot points for bows #1 & #4 are both 1 3/8" above bows #2 & #3 pivot points. That means if bows #1 & #4 line up when folded, bows #1 & #4 are the same length."
Yes, bows 1 and 4 are the same length, and bows 2 and 3 are essentially the same length (within 1/8" to 1/4") on this particular 1911 touring.
Ward sent me some excellent photos of the connections on his 1911 touring.
Are they the same as 1912 - 17?
This is interesting stuff guys. Keep it coming. A top and upholstery can make or break a car. I am fortunate. I'm working on bows for my '13 roadster. They are all original, and in great shape for 100 years. Even though the archives says they don't have prints for the '13 roadster top, they do. They don't have the touring though. I'm also pretty sure there were at least two different top manufacturers in 1913, judging by the shape of the little cupped sockets between the long metal top sockets.
I took a long drive yesterday to take some pics of a 14 Touring. I had only ever seen it with the top folded and now know why I have never seen it with the top up. It looks like someone has fitted an Austin 7 top, Back inclined 4.5" forward instead of back, the front seat bow leaning backwards and the top still not reaching the windscreen properly.
Therefore, still looking for some photos of the hood irons, especially the sockets, connections etc, of a 1912 - 1917 touring. Taken as straight on as possible so that I can produce a reasonable drawing.
Alternatively, can someone please confirm that the 1911 connections were the same as those on the 12-17 tourings so that I can use Ward's excellent photos.
From 1910 on, when tops became standard equipment, regardless of manufacturer, I'm pretty sure all tops had to meet Fords specs. (dimensions). Before that they probably had to meet Ford specs.
I have copies of four shipping invoices, two 1910 tourings and two 1911 tourings. All four were shipped with Jackson tops. If there were other top manufacturers at that time I don't know who they were.
I have made some comparisons between original bows and sockets and here is what I found.
"15-"16 socket/bow assemblies have the same structural dimensions as "17-"22, including pivot points and nesting button locations.
"13-"14 sockets have the same dimensions as "15-"16 sockets. I know the #1 bow would have to be about 6" longer on the "13-"14 bows but I suspect the other three are the same.
The obsolete drawing shows the #3 bow to be 28 11/16", shorter than any dimensions any body else has come up with and 4" shorter than the "15-"22 bows I have measured.
If anybody has anything to ad, please do.