OT - Ford Model H

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: OT - Ford Model H
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 09:44 pm:

I've seen this ad for the "Model H", but now a bit of corroboration from the book "The Dodge Brothers: The Men, The Motor Cars, And The Legacy" By Charles K. Hyde.

Apparently the "Model H" was close enough to reality that an ad slipped out and Dodge Bros did work on the car.
.
.


.
.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison_Rice Minnesota on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 10:27 pm:

Wow, I've lost track now. See if I've got this anywhere close to right,
Model A
Model B
Model H
Model K
Model N
Model R
Model S
Model T
Model TT

Then:
Model A
Model AA
Model B
What am I missing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 11:25 pm:

AC and C


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willis Jenkins on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 12:00 am:

And Model F

Willis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Woolf on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 07:18 am:

The Model H looks just like the Model B to me. Maybe it was a slightly updated Model B? The ad is blurry, but the body style, flared fenders, lights, shape of the door, radiator, hood, etc. look just like the Model B. I don't see any difference other than the addition of a running board rather than step plates. Check out the Model B pictures on The Early Ford Registry.

http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/modelb/modelb.html


Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 07:37 am:

Dan,

In some ways it looks like a small version of the B. however it has a side shift lever like the NRS and K will have.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gilbert V. I. Fitzhugh on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 08:02 am:

The B had four cylinders and over 20 horsepower. Why would Henry build a smaller four with only 10 hp? This probably was a 2-cylinder.

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 09:25 am:

Gil,

In the drawing a side lever shift is shown, similar to the NRS and K Models.

In my opinion, Ford was already moving toward four and more cylinder cars. In February 1904 he showed a car the Detroit Auto Show that was a four cylinder 10 hp AIR COOLED car (and also showed an enclosed coupe bodied car at the same show).

Ford Motor Company frequently mentions in advertising that they've worked on the six cylinder K for two years prior to 1906. Also, the Ford Model K racer was appearing in races by the fall of 1905.

Also, by mid 1906 Ford is rumored to be coming out with a "light touring car".

I believe on the "evolutionary tree" this is a "predecessor" to Ford's ultimate goal, the light touring, or Model T.

Below is the story about Ford's four cylinder air cooled car, along with a coupe bodied car. While these end up being "prototypes", they are actual cars (like the Model H) that Ford is showing to the public, with the expectation of producing and selling.

The only thing I'm sure of about Ford history is that there's a lot I'm not sure of :-).
.
.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 09:34 am:

Another thing, maybe the reason we are up to the model "T" by 1908 is because each of these "prototype" cars is given a letter designation as they are developed.

By 1908 we've seen the three cars described above, the Model H, an air cooled 15 HP air cooled car, and a closed coupe (on "regular Ford chassis with the tonneau removed").

We also know Ford was showing a "light touring" in late 1907 early 1908 that resembled a Model S cowled NRS chassis touring car (shown at at least two car shows). Ford said this "light touring" would be sold in the spring of 1908, and did not have an enclosed transmission like the Model T, had a 97 inch wheelbase and 20 hp motor.

And lest we forget, Henry Ford is seen driving about Detroit in a six cylinder NRS style runabout (now in Australia) in 1908.

We're running out of letters .......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 11:30 am:

The delivery car (pie wagon) was not a T, I think they went back and actually used 'E'...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 11:45 am:

There was a model AC also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 11:48 am:

George,

Some call the early delivery car (1904) a Model D or E. I believe there may be a reference to Model E delivery car somewhere (memory :-( ). It appears to have been a 1400 lbs C cab van weighing 1400 lbs. I have an ad for one somewhere, I'll try to find it.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 12:02 pm:

Here it is. I "stole" a pic from the Early Ford site, and don't recall who posted it.
.
.

.
.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 06:37 pm:

I remember that some time back in this search for the truth, reading a copy of an original reporting error that compared the new model N with its flywheel/fan to the "air-cooled model B" Ford. A small amount of research on my part and confirmed by you showed the original report to be in error. The model B was not air cooled. Just a thought now, after reading about the model H above. Perhaps this was the car the reporter had seen and lead to his error about the model B?

"The only thing I'm sure of about Ford history is that there's a lot I am not sure of."
That's okay, Rob. Royce is sure enough for both of you!
By the way, I like Royce. I mostly look forward to his postings and value his opinions a lot.

Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 06:49 pm:

Wayne,

Yes, there are errors made in reporting. However, I've been impressed for the most part with the accuracy of reports I've seen (especially compared with newspaper articles today). It's hard to "guess" what the reporter was actually seeing. The good thing is, there may be photographs that surface of these cars.

The digital age is still relatively new. When searching old news accounts, we are still only scratching the surface of all the newspapers and magazines out there.

Also, to our comments about Royce, he has actually caused me to redouble my efforts, so that is a good thing (Royce, don't get "the big head", your still a pain)

Wayne, thanks for your posts,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison_Rice Minnesota on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 07:32 pm:

I think this list is becoming a little more representative. It would be nice to know if there are examples of all of these.

Model A
Model B
Model C
Model D (?)
Model E (?)
Model F
Model AC
Model H
Model K
Model N
Model R
Model S
Model NRS
Model T
Model TT

Then:
Model A
Model AA
Model B

I guess I'll have to be happy with my Model T's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 08:08 pm:

Speaking of 1905:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 08:22 am:

From Mike Garrison listing, plus 1...

Model A
Model B
Model C
Model D (?)
Model E (?)
Model F
Model AC
Model H
Model K
Model N
Model R
Model S
Model NRS
Model T
Model TT
<new> Model 'X' (Radial engine version documented as being designed starting in late '23 and then taken through to a an actual prototype engine that could never get the bugs out and <perhaps> meant to go into the 'improved' car as a new Model? The 'X' designation DID exist and is documented in research done by Myers, a former Fellow at the Henry Ford (now BFM) (so where does that leave 'U', 'V', 'W'? :-) )

Then:
Model A
Model AA
Model B


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 09:02 am:

George, as long as we're having fun with this, how about these:

The six cylinder N type runabout that Henry was seen "racing" around Detroit with? I've heard this car referred to a Model J.
.
.

.
.
Then, we have the 1904 car show where Ford showed a 15 hp four cylinder air cooled touring, and at the same show "Ford chassis" with an enclosed coupe body.
.
.



.

And finally, the Model ST. The car seen at car shows in the fall of 1907 through the winter of 1908.
.
.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 11:04 am:

Rob,

Therein lies the the fun in the mystique!

I accidentally tripped over that Myers revelation and documentation when looking for something entirely different.

I DO think that Ford used the entire alphabet. The most common industrial scheme of the early era was to use an alphabet series for evolution but not use 'I', 'O' and 'Q'. Sure some folks used 'O' probably more of a marketing uniqueness for 'pop' but somewhere in other early industrial era research I have the old generally accepted 'alpha' rules of the era. Ford is unique though...it was also common in this same scheme that there would be a second 'alpha' to cover the actual derivatives of the mother basis...and Ford did not do that, they simply went to the next letter. So, who really knows yet the 'holes' lead to further questions.

Those 1908 'new' issues of course now go goofy with the previous stated logic...where were they? Was it an 'S' or and 'R'? Here you go...we know that T started in 1907 so what about the 'N-R-S' derivatives in the adverts? Perhaps that is where the next known letter is 'X'? Hmmmmm.......:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 11:17 am:

There was also a Model C about 1933 which was mostly used for commercial vehicles. 4 cylinder but improved from the Model A and Model B.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 11:18 am:

George,

I've always thought the NRS series should have just been the N. The Model K had the touring and later roadster, without different letter designation. Also, the two cylinder cars were offered as either runabout or with tonneau,with no additional letter designation. And of course the T had many body styles with only one letter designation. So, why three letters for the N runabout series?

All good stuff,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 03:30 pm:

They are a bit too modern for my liking, however in the long and growing list of model letter designations, the AR is missing. Years ago, when I had close friends interested in the modern model A Fords, there was a long ongoing discussion of why Ford went back to the letter "A" and just what did the "R" denote? A Redone? A Return? I have no idea what conclusion they ever got to?


From Mike Garrison listing, plus 1... then 2... now 3...

Model A
Model B
Model C
Model D (?)
Model E (?)
Model F
Model AC
Model H
Model K
Model N
Model R
Model S
Model NRS
Model T
Model TT
<new> Model 'X' (Radial engine version documented as being designed starting in late '23 and then taken through to a an actual prototype engine that could never get the bugs out and <perhaps> meant to go into the 'improved' car as a new Model? The 'X' designation DID exist and is documented in research done by Myers, a former Fellow at the Henry Ford (now BFM) (so where does that leave 'U', 'V', 'W'? )

Then:
Model AR
Model A
Model AA
Model B
Model C


Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 03:34 am:

That "Model C" was never called that by Ford Motor Company. It's a nickname used by US enthusiasts.
The true Ford Motor Company Ford Model C was the 1172ccm 34 HP car introduced in England in 1935.

It was the second of "Henry's cars for Europe" - the Model Y being the first introduced February 19 1932.
But if you mention TT and AA you can add BB as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 11:14 am:

Wayne,

The "Model AR" designation is one invented by hobbyist collectors of the Model A. The way it came to be is that the original parts design for many of the early 1928 parts became superceded by improved versions of the same part. The example given is from the Model A Ford Club of america web site:

Jan-01-28 A-9700 Carburetor adjusting rod (choke rod)
Oct-01-28 A-9700-AR Same item
"A" suffix added indicates there is a
new design carrying the "B" suffix
"R" suffix added indicates that this version
is no longer used in production

A-9700-B New design
- as shown above, replaces old rod A-9700

Much like the first 2500 Model T's, Ford introduced the Model A as quickly as he could, then realized that a number of items needed to be improved. The next batch of 1928 Model A's thus had many parts identified with a -B suffix after the basic part number.

The parts that had been replaced by better designs originally had no suffix. After the redesign, all those parts were given a "-AR" suffix to show that they had been superceded in production.

Ford Motor Company did not ever refer to the earlier batch of 1928 Model A's as "Model AR".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 01:12 pm:

Royce, the US Fords had big troubles in many european countries due to taxation based on bore, stroke or both (volume).
In order to try to sell the Model A's and B's a "european" version of the engine was offered - I think it was made in Manchester/Dagenham in the UK - where the bore was reduced but the stroke kept.
I've seen these named Model AR and BR. There was also later a 60 HP V8.
None of these "European" Fords where popular as they where underpowered.
In summer 1931 Charles Sørensen and Henry Ford finally gave way for Percyval Perrys - the European General Manager of Ford - plea for a small Ford and just 9 month later, February 19 1932 the new Model Y was presented in Royal Albert Hall and became a success immediately. Engine was 933cc and 21 HP. In 1935 came the Model C 1172ccm and 34 HP.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 01:24 pm:

Correction: The European Model As with smaller engines was Model AF and not AR. Should have checked that before I wrote above.


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration