Front Motor Mount - I'm Out of Ideas . . .

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Front Motor Mount - I'm Out of Ideas . . .
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 08:54 pm:

Two weeks ago we got the new motor mostly installed in the 1923 Runabout. I say mostly because while the rear ears were bolted into place and looked good, the front stubbornly refused to settle in. I thought at the time that the rear mounts just needed to be loosened and the motor should be able to be horsed into place.

Today I removed the two side bolts and took out the wood blocks and loosed up but did not remove the two nuts & bolts holding the motor to the top frame rail. With the car in high gear I rocked it back and forth hoping it would drop into place. Nothing doing. Then I grabbed the crank handle and pulled this way and that. That didn't work either. Then I got out an old scissors car jack and jacked the rear of the motor forward. Here is a picture of that:



This brought the motor forward just enough so it should have dropped in but it didn't drop. The nose was still too far to port so the same jack was used to persuade the nose of the motor to move starboard. OK, now it looks dead nuts perfect but still will not drop into place. Here are some pictures:









I stood on the nose & jumped up & down. No joy. I tried a big rubber mallet, no soap either.

Mebbee the tight frame had grabbed it too hard and some of the weight needed to be taken off of the frame rails. I used a trolly jack under the drain plug and lifted the motor slightly. Nothing doing, it is still stubbornly refusing to drop into place!

Well, I'm about out of ideas. What would keep the nose from slipping into place? I replaced the front spring/motor mount unit with a different but I had thought identical unit. The new one LOOKs to be just the same as the old one but it is in better shape. Could it be that not all motor mounts are the same?

Any ideas? Right now I'm stalled on this project until this motor can be mounted in its saddle.

Vintage Paul, head scratchin agin . . .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Derocher on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 10:02 pm:

Maybe try putting the cap and the 2 bolts in place and slowly draw it down? If it goes down into place loosen the bolts and see if it pops back up in case something is binding somewhere. Good luck, Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wes Nelson ........Bucyrus, MO on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 10:12 pm:

Perhaps try pushing down on the ball on the end of the radius rod, causing the front cross member to pivot towards the rear. MHO Wes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 10:26 pm:

Tough one...
Either the engine pan is too short or the chassis is too long.
You might make a few measurements on a friends T and see which it might be.
I rather think the pan is short, just a guess. It may have been in an accident and shortened, don't ask how I know. Tomorrow I will measure a pan and get back with you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Robb on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 10:35 pm:

Try turning the mount around. Looks like it's on backwards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 10:39 pm:

Loosen the spring clamp nuts, so that the mount is free to rock slightly on the front crossmember. It might help you get it lined up. You can re tightnen them after it drops.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 10:50 pm:

Was the pan checked for flat and true ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 11:09 pm:

Where is the frame currently being supported?
Could it have sagged - allowing to the front cross member to twist?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 11:16 pm:

It sure looks like there's a piece of wood in there! Perhaps not, and it was just something you did to make the pictures more descriptive, but what is it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 11:20 pm:

I always put the front mount in place first. Then do up the U-joint as the bolts there will easily draw the U-joint into place. Then do up the side arms as I can use a taper punch to line up the holes if I need to and it necessary use the punch through the frame side holes in order to get the bolts started in the top frame flange holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Sunday, January 27, 2013 - 11:47 pm:

Was the pan straightened on a KR WILSON Pan Jig? Was the frame checked for straightness as well?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 12:13 am:

Paul

Look at the front of the motor mount, right at the bottom where the bolt goes down there should be a cast boss or round thing in both sides. One side should have a hole drilled in it that's threaded to hold the licence plate bracket. If it's on the back side it's on backwords,turn it around and try again.
Like Bob Rob said. Hope this helps. I know the frustration.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 08:58 am:

Was the pan on this engine in this same frame before repairs were made? If not pull the engine and try another pan for a trial fit. Someone may have brazed a replacement snout on the pan and got it wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 10:10 am:

It looks to me like the mount on the pan has been damaged and then worked on, Has it been built up with weld and then ground down? possibly too large around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 10:21 am:

I just re-read your post and I'm pretty sure you're saying that you changed out the front mount. Same pan, same engine, same frame? Different front mount? Doh as Homer would say.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 10:26 am:

I am with Fred,I would say there is frame sag.
Could be the mount is backwards but it would still set down in there,or least mine did.I had to take it back up to switch it around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 10:53 am:

Say, you don't have the wishbone hooked up do you? Any body want to guess, besides that, what will hold an engine up? Sagged frame? Even if I believed that what's stopping the engine from dropping down? In the pics it's sitting perfectly in the bearing mount but won't drop. Even if he did swap the mount it's hanging in mid air. What's it hitting?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 11:23 am:

Paul

Remove the two top frame rail to pan ears bolts, the ones you posted first that are still locked down tight to the frame. That will let the engine lift up some.

Then fit the pan nose (bearing) into the spring mount, add grease first to the pan bearing and mount, that is a moving (slight) part and needs to have a smear of grease.

Fit the front end first. Tight. The go back to the rear pan ears and re-fit there. Tighten the frame to pan bolts, that should help. Seems to me the frame has a slight bow, from the rails to the front cross member, but re-fitting the engine this way should fix the slight bow and aligning the front bearing first is the best way now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Ashton Rosenkrans on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 11:43 am:

Had a bit of the same problem installing my new-rebuilt engine in my Speedster frame. I installed all bolts, but didn't tighten down including the front spring hanger, so everything could move just a little. Then lowered the engine on the crane a little bit at a time giving it a little shake each time and checking everything was lining up. Once everything was in place I went back a tightened everything. A little tap here and there as she came down seemed to work pretty well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 11:56 am:

Front crossmember out of whack or c.c. arms not straight or in alignment ! Pan should checked on jig.

Only the '26-'27 style of front c.c. bearing & spring clip had the screw hole for the front radiator apron.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 11:58 am:

Thanks for the discussion on this frustrating issue. I'm really stuck right now and the whole project has come to a grinding halt.

In answer to some of the questions:

This pan was one of the few salvageable parts from my old engine. It came out of this car, was straightened by Glen Chaffin on his rig. I do not know the maker of that tool.

I do not know that this frame is true and straight. Indeed, the very tightness between the rails makes me suspicious. The car drove fine, did not dogtrack and seemed to be in rig.

The front mount that the car came with had rough threads and very long threaded portions that I was told indicated it was made for a TT. I swapped it out for another one that had better threads but the same long "fixings." It was a later part and had the boss to mount the large under radiator trim piece for the high steel cars. I was told that it could be installed backwards so that it looked right for a low steel car. That is what I did, it IS in backwards. I wish I had trial fitted the new mount with the pan before installation. It never occured to me there could be an issue.

How much trouble is it to put the old mount back in? Can it be done without pulled the motor back out, a job I have no wish to repeat unless it is absolutely necessary?

Here is an overall view of the situation:



Vintage Paul, still head scatchin . . .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 12:22 pm:

Paul, I would try a bit of grinding on the "new" mount with a Dremel or something similar. It looks to me that the mount is just a bit too tight for your crank case snout. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 01:04 pm:

All good ideas... My suggestion at this point is to remove the bolts from the cc ears and set the engine down so the nose locates in the front support. This will then allow you to ream the holes if needed to get the bolts back in at the cc ears.
Good Luck and don't give up!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 01:47 pm:

Thanks again for the ideas. Before I try grinding I'll take Gene's lead and REMOVE completely the top bolts from the CC ears. That will give as much mobility as I'm ever going to see. If it doesn't drop the snout into the saddle then it might be time for something else.

Vintage Paul, with a plan (and hope) restored, thanks guys!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 01:48 pm:

I didn't have time to read all the posts, but I only know of 3 places that would cause that.

1. The pan has to be right. Also, I never put in any arm bolts until every thing is set.

2. What I think some body has brought up, is the wish bone. When you unhook, the front spring will want to push back to the engine, or there is pressure on the front cross member to the rear to let it twist.

3. Is the rear spring, will do the same thing, and it can pull the rear end back as much a 1/2 inch.

The only thing that has to be perfect is when the Motor is setting in the right place, you do NOT want to pry the pan arm bolt holes to put in the bolts, or there go's all your alignment.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 03:56 pm:

From the second picture, it looks as though the front of the pan where the bearing fits into the socket is bent to one side. The front edge is loose on the driver's side and the back side too close on that same side while the passenger side is loose on the back side and too close on the passenger side. Loose in the direction that if you were to pull the crank toward your right it might fit in. Maybe you can remove the crank and install a longer straight bar or pipe and lever it toward your right as facing the front of the car. This would be done with all the bolts out at the rear mounts. it's also possible that the rear mounts could be bent forward, which could cause the front of the engine to be farther back than normal.

Of course the proper way would have been to align your crankcase on a K.R.Wilson or comparable jig to get everything straight including all 3 mounts.

The Long Beach club or the Orange County club both have many members and should have someone who would have such a jig. If your engine is a 23, you really need to have a properly aligned crankcase or risk breaking the crankshaft in the engine. If you are using a 26-27 with the hogshead bolted to the back of the block and your 4th main moves easily (as has been posted many times previously) you might get by. I know it's a disappointment to have to pull the engine and crankcase to align it, but in the long haul it could save you money and heartaches in the future.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 04:41 pm:

Loosen the front motor mount so it can move side to side on the frame cross member. Then fit the engine in the frame lining up the pan ears and wishbone. Now move the front motor mount so the nose of the pan falls into place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 06:09 pm:

I had this issue. I loosened the nuts on the rear spring hangers and then it slid right in. I guess the spring was holding frame from moving back the tiny little bit it needed. Maybe I am all wet but that was the issue for me. After the nose dropped in and retightened them and then put the bolts in the pan arms.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 06:46 pm:

Thanks guys, that gives me a couple of more things to try. I don't know If I'll get a chance to work on the T until Saturday but I will report my progress. I hope that this time things will go smoothly and I can get on to putting the car back together.

Vintage Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 07:22 pm:

UH?
Have you checked to be certain that the pan is not sitting on the little cast on radiator splash shield tab? I seem to recall trying to use one backwards one time on a speedster because I didn't want the tab to show and ended up cutting it off because it was the only one I had at the time. I noticed you said it is a late one and is on backwards? It is almost impossible to see it back in that tight little corner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, January 28, 2013 - 10:09 pm:

I see that there are wheels on the car.

If it is a twist problem - You might try attaching a rope between the front axle and the garage wall then pushing the car backwards a bit to twist the motor mount enough so the motor drops into place.


I also like Eric's idea about loosening the motor mount and letting it twist a bit.

I am assuming that the clearance on the back side equals the interference on the front. Otherwise your trying to put 10 pounds into a 9 pound bag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 12:01 pm:

I measured a pan and it was 41 5/8 from the rear face to the back side of the front mount. However if you had the pan checked at Glen's, it is correct.
My suggestion is in line with the others, remove the front radius rod connection, remove the crankcase top bolts and the rear axle bolts. See how close it all is without any fasteners connected.
It seems unlikely that the front chassis cross section is bent forward, but I guess it is possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil on Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 06:59 pm:

Thanks again guys! I was out of ideas but have a good course of action to work with now. First I'll remove completely the top bolts then block the radius rod down with a sheet of plywood. Then I'll check to make sure the dongle on the front motor mount (turned backwards) is not obstructing anything. Then we'll see if we can horse it into place. It surely ought to drop in then! If not mebbee we can loosen and move the back axle a bit.

Vintage Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 02:32 am:

Hey VP, Maybe your car was the one that got yanked out of the ditch with the 250 4X4 with a chain around that front member or was it the tie down winch on the trailer ? Hee hee

I am sure with everything unbuttoned you'll get it to drop in.

Why is it that you have all the Luck?

You must be ready for some good luck..To Ya


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 03:44 am:

Gene - He washed the motor when he had it out and it shrunk.
Next time he'll put it on a stretcher when he lets it dry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 07:56 am:

OK Newbie needing some info. This motor is not sitting in the chassis correctly but it seems from the posts the drive shaft is already bolted up to the forth main. ??Why?? Wouldn't you first set the motor up before finalizing the drive shaft?

What I would do:

Pull all the bolts at the frame rails.
Back off the forth main bolts leaving the nuts on the ends of the bolts.
Lower the wishbone!
Pull the motor forward into the front mount.
Line up the frame mounts and blocks leaving the bolts loose.
Tighten up the forth main and drive shaft.
Check alinement and tighten it all down.

Am I missing something?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 09:32 am:

In my expierence with putting together Model T's with differnet frames, engines, rearends and etc.
you have to remember that things dont line up "exactly".

I have found that bolting down the front mount FIRST then the pan ears SECOND works best for me. I use centering tools, (long punches) to align the pan ears. Then bolt together the rear main area LAST.

When its done this way it gives room to move or rock the car to get movement in the rear and front springs to get things bolted down.

Your only trying to get things to come together a 1/2 inch or so doing it this way allows you to bring things together.

I never have put one together when bolting down the rear main area first.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 01:05 pm:

Gene - This car was really made from a pile of junk. When we tore into the upholstery, we found all the wood structure missing and the seat & backrest made up of scraps of plywood, odd cuts of foam and the bucket edged with pieces cut from old truck tires. The back of the bucket itself was full of shotgun pellets! Everything I had looked at has been worn, damaged or wrong. Now things are bound to go better as it has so many new and rebuilt parts. It just HAS to go easier - doesn't it?

Both Johns - My Dad used to have a little printed sign on the wall that said something like "Too soon oldt, too late schmart." If I had it to do over again, I would take it in the order you suggest. To go even further, next time I'll remove the body. That scares me too as I fear to find out the horrors that almost certainly lurk beneath the skin.

Vintage Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 02:32 pm:

Why not try loosening the four driveshaft bolts, and the front radius rod, and then use punches as mentioned above. Be sure to have the four crankcase arm bolts out too. Looks to me like you have your sequences messed up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 04:34 pm:

Ford's prescribed method:

1. Mount engine in frame

2. Enter universal into drive plate
a. enter the ball cap screws but don't
tighten them yet.

3. Install crank case arm blocks and bolts
a. enter the top bolts for the crankcase
arms run them down, then insert the arm
blocks and bolts from the side. Don't
apply force to these.

4. Connect axle to transmission.
a. enter top ball cap bolts and nuts.
b. tighten lower cap screws and wire the
heads together.

5. Connect mag terminal

6. connect exhaust pipe.

7. connect front radius rod (wishbone) to
crankcase

8. install crank case front bearing cap. Any
play and file the cap just like you
would a rod cap.

9. Assemble engine pans (if they exist)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 04:49 pm:

Stareing at it and didn't see it. The jack threw me. What's holding it up? The connected drive shaft torque tube. That's what.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 06:18 pm:

This might sound a little too easy, I can't tell by the photograph, is your brake handle all the way forward? It could be that the cam is putting enough pressure to not allow the engine to drop into place. Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 09:49 pm:

That lever might have been forward. I know it is now because I was using top gear to rock the motor back & forth hoping it would drop into place. It never occurred to me that the lever could be an issue . . .

I can fix that and have a go at the other things mentioned here Saturday morning. If you hear a big loud "whoopee!" you'll know the motor is home again.

Vintage Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 11:00 pm:

I think you need patience, persistence and perhaps a touch with a file or grinder. This is not a major problem, just a bump in the road.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ex trooper on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 12:20 am:

Do some cleaning with the file. The snout looks kinda beat up anyway. That should be a clean shiny fit as Ford considered that as one of the grounding points. Id take the clamp off the frame and try it on the pan and go from there. I also wouldnt be affraid to help line up the crossmember with a 36 inch pipe wrench. Looks like yer only off 1/16". That much rust can accumulate between the frame joints. Its not like you are trying to align a precision gear box. Persuade it in to place. What would farmer Fred have done? troop


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Geisler on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 02:40 am:

Paul
Please check to see if you brace that mount on backwards as others have told you! I did not read everything written here so if I'm out of turn please excuse. We did one like this and were going crazy and all it was it was hitting the bolt hole cast in on the front side which we had backwards. Turned it around and urgency was over with. It is easily removed for earlier low radiator car,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 04:47 pm:

One of my local T buddies came by the shop here for a visit (with the steering gearbox casing I urgently wanted - thanks Alex!) and we went out to inspect the T. While looking it over I had a look at the silly dongle that used to hold the under radiator apron in place. Sure enough, the nose of the pan was hard up against it! I guess I better refinish the old one and use it even though the threads were less than perfect. Thanks for the steer guys, I would not have thought to look there without it!

Vintage Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 04:54 pm:

Three cheers each for Wayne and Joseph!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 05:42 pm:

Paul
Just grind off the nub that is holding it up, no one will ever know. Problem fixed.

Bob

PS I've been there and dun that many times.


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