Over the years there have been many that have express the great benefit of Wood Bands.
I have never seen a set of drums with this much wear. Low mileage, fact is a show car. Appears that the bands were installed correctly. May have been to tight but the engine is a stem winder, and owner didn't complain of the car creeping on start or hard to crank by hand.
No wood for me.
I have wood on mine, no strange wear patterns. Something else is at play here.
The hardness of the drum material needs to be checked!
I have had wood bands in 2 of my T's for many years and no problems. I agree with Ed and James that something else is wrong here.
Something doesn't seem right here. How could wood cut into metal? Sounds like the stuff of a Mythbusters episode to me.
Is this a late April Fools joke? No way wood can leave wear patterns like that. Possibly Kevlar, but not wood. I installed wood bands on mine in 2010 and there has been no wear whatsoever. Jim Patrick
That is very strange! How could wood bands wear out the drums that bad and not be burn't to a crisp? Weird!!! Dave
That band doesn't look worn at all - is it really wood?
Here is my guess....The damage to drums happened prior to the wood bands and then the band conformed to the drum. But if you know the drums where good before the wood that is just strange.
Mike.... have to agree with Bob on Texas Gulf Coast, has to be a more recent reline with little use
My experience with wood linings is with new J&M drums from the get go.
Since new drums were going in decided to use wood back in 2004.
Toured most heartedly and put thousands of miles on those wood linings, until an event of my making caused the low band to go. Ran out of oil by leaving the lower petcock open, don't do that
But motor not damaged as caught the mistake early. Had to adjust low band up about 4 turns and shreds of burnt wood fibers were in the oil screen as that wood lining went when oil wasn't there for a brief time.
Here is what the linings looked like in 2013 when I removed them to replace the wood. Decided to go with Kevlar then.
The low in middle was worn down, the reverse just some, the wide brake ('26-'27) wood lining little wear as Rocky Mtn rear brakes do the big work.
side view shows how much the low wood lining worn down over time and with the oil lost event.
And here is what those new J&M drums looked like with wood linings running on them for 9 years. You can see the 'imprint' of the oil grooves in the wood lining on the surfaces. And between those is some amount of metal wear, not a lot but some. Linings will wear on the metal drums, any kind. That is why today you find old drums with sharp edges, and worn down, the metal will go over time.
Just a bit of wear over 9 years with wood linings.
Now have Kevlar in the touring, and runs fine, the Kevlar engages same as the wood IMO.
Hardness of drum? All three are worn. Not April fools or a myth. Bands are wood Ware matches bands
It looks like someone harvested the wood from a carborundum tree!
I do not care for wood because the only time I used wood bands they turned to mush and fell apart.
Yes that's what I said. Check the hardness of the drum material. I don't think the drums would be worn where the bands don't make contact. So obviously the drums would be worn where they do make contact. Make sense ?
I have wood in one of mine (1912 Hack) and like them as well as any I have used. They are COTTON WOOD which I understand is the original wood used for the bands.
I've been using wood bands in my speedster for over 20 years now. My drums had been turned on a lathe and then smoothed some before assembly. The first set of bands finished polishing the drums (which were smooth to the touch but not shiny). A little over 20 years of fairly spirited driving I'm on my second set of bands and the same drums which look good. Have lost triple gear bushings and had some clutch issues but bands have served me well. No clue what happened for the drums in the original photo but I'm certainly happy with the wood in my car.
OK, not to be the "spelling police" but why do so many folks use "ware" for the word "wear"? "Ware" is something you sell, "wear" is what makes something worn out.
Simple Simon met a Pie Man going to the fair.
Said Simple Simon to the Pie Man, "Let me taste your ware."
"I'm where? I'm here!"
"Where's your ware?"
"What! Where's my where?"
"Your ware! your ware! let me taste it."
SPLAT! (Pie man let's pogo have it with a pie)
(From Pogo Step-Mother Goose by Walt Kelly)
Sorry for the thread drift, I just ran into the use of "Ware" for "wear" on eBay and now here!
But I too, would think that drum wear pre-dated the wooden band install.
You're yelling to the four winds David. Like the thread complaining about Mac's on eBay, trying to clean up spelling and grammar is a lost cawz.
I have the same question about people who have breaks on they're cars and barings on there would fellow weels, whitch are fitted to there chassy. Aint inglish grate?
I was always confused as a small child when folks talked about going to "Grammer School," as that's what we called Grandma Dewey; Grammer. Something her first grandchild called her, and it stuck--in fact, her tombstone just reads "Grammer."
Miss her, she once told me, "I'm an Old Lady and I can say what I want to!" Cracked her knee cap re-shingling her roof in her 80s. Hmm, us grand-kids don't seem to be that sturdy!
And Garnet, I wasn't yelling so much as mulling it over. John, that question is grate!
Now ware was I going with this?? Oh yeah, digging a hole; time to stop digging!
Those drums are the result of steel on iron not wood. The grooves that line up with oil grooves are from the locking portion of the removable ears. Even though the bands shown don't have those ears, that transmission has seen them once before and the linings were allowed to wear away running the steel band in the drum. I suspect the steel bands that did the damage weren't usable.
That's about the only explanation that comes even close. You don't buy wood tools to cut steel with.
Having no previous knowledge of this car, I have come to some possible deductions as to the cause of the wear on the drums.
We don't know the condition of the drums before the wood was installed. Maybe wood was chosen because it was thought that the wood would wear to comform to the shape of the drums.
Also since the car was intended for low mileage show car, the owner concentrated on the condition of the outside of the car and the areas which would be seen by those attending shows.
I don't think good drums would be worn by use of wood lining unless the wood wore all the way through to the steel bands.
I was wondering if perhaps something abrasive had gotten into the oil and then eventually became imbedded in the wood bands. Like maybe valve grinding compound or something, or grit from cyl. boring at time of last rebuild or something. I've never really heard any real criticism about wood bands, except that they chatter. And frankly, I think that wood bands that chatter (mine do not chatter) only chatter because the bands were "charred" and burned from abuse. I'm gonna' stick with wood bands as they seem to work well for me!
David Dewey - Yeah, the spelling thing drives me nuts too, but I try real hard not to be critical 'cause I sure make my share of "typos". What really gets me though is not so much the bad spelling thing,....heck, there are some pretty smart folks that just have a bit of a problem with spelling,....no big deal. What I see more and more of nowadays is that so many peoples speech is so bad, that society seems to be accepting poor spelling because they hear bad grammar so much that pretty soon, many people no longer recognize bad grammar. How often do you hear (and read) "I seen this", or, "I seen that"! Also, many people use "then" when they really mean "than". But it's because they hear such misuse of words so much that they no longer recognize it as a mistake, an so they unknowingly abuse the English language by writing what they hear, even when its wrong. Okay,...end of rant, it's just that it's really a shame that our language is deteriorating more and more. I guess I notice it more than some as my Japanese daughter-in-law tries so hard to improve her English and learns so much, just by what she reads, and nowadays, so much of what she reads is WRONG! Okay,....I did say "end of rant", right? ......harold
In the fourth grade, we had an in class math assignment. I was terrible in math and, as usual, was not done with the assignment by the time it was due close to the end of class. the teacher asked who was still working on it. My hand was the only one that went up. She asked "How much do you, lack?" I answered: "I don't lack any of it!" The teacher got a good laugh out of that. Jim Patrick
I become bothered by missing words, as an example: "needs restored". Is it too much trouble to type: "needs to be restored"?
I won't speak of spelling errors. No, I was not an English major.
It seems to me contradictory that we, well at least some of us, can be sticklers about precise measurements of critical mechanical components and the use of correct year parts in the assembling of a certain car, but spelling and grammar are of no importance.
I was taught long ago that rather than speaking and writing clearly, to be understood, I should strive to speak and write such that I could not possibly be misunderstood. Still workin' at it. Bill
Guys, I hate to disagree a bit here with the spelling and grammar comments above but I'll do it anyway. I have two good friends who have serious issues with both grammar and spelling, one had to quit school at the 4th grade to go work in the fields, the other is dyslexic. Both have struggled for acceptance because of their lack of skill with language. We also have a few forum contributors who are somewhat language challenged. I hate to see them put down when reading and writing skills show up. These folks are not stupid, they have other strong skills but it's too easy for some to discount them and it seems unfair. Lets keep things open and try to be understanding while we attempt to be understood. OK, end of rant.
Maybe the driver "rides" the bands. In the old 3 speed manual transmission days some drivers would ride the clutch: keep their foot on the pedal such that there was always a little slippage and wear out a clutch lining pretty quickly. In this case it looks like the drums gave up quicker than the lining.
David Dewey--You will have to excuse some of us from the South. Some of us refer to"wyor" as waar. It is all in getting into the culture.
Walt, you are absolutely correct in saying that some people have difficulty with written communication, through no fault of their own. I too recognise this in some posts.
But it just doesn't excuse the drift into things like "needs restored" as Bill pointed out. The one that gets me going, and I had a conversation with Bruce,RIP, about this, is the current trend to eliminate the past tense of the verb 'fit'. Everything fit well, regardless of whether it was fitted now or years ago.
Sometimes spelling is ignorance of the root of the word. Bailing wire is often referred to in posts. Bailing is what you do when your boat is sinking. Baling wire is that which is used to make hay bales.
Ex grade school teacher, Allan from down under.
Am I the only one that is greatly insulted when corrected for the way I use the language in speaking or writing? I have never heard a spoken word or read a posting that I did not understand. This is not third grade in school. Please do not try to impress others of your knowledge at the cost of others.
I always wondered, why wood bands? Ford used cotton and that is still available. Kevlar is similar to cotton in the way it can conform to and flex with drum and bands. Kevlar is also far more durable than either cotton or wood.So when and why did wood bands become popular and start to be used?
Well, I said I would stop digging this hole, but it seems others have joined in!
Walt, no disrespect intended, I am also dyslexic, it runs in the family, but proper grammer was drilled into me in grade school and it somehow stuck!R. S. ah yes, y'all do taulk funny down there! Of course you think we talk funny up here!
Harold, YES, I'm with you; it drive me crazy to hear actors and news-folks say, "Me and my friend. . ." so much that it's now, I suspect, considered "good English." I was taught to always put yourself last ("My friend and I . . . "). And don't get me started on "you know," "like. . "!
Now, trying to get out of this hole: It looks like we pretty much agree that something happened to those drums before the wooden bands were installed, and the bands have conformed to the drums' shapes.
I think people skip words because they are used to texting. It's a pain to text on some phones and leaving words out is easier than typing them if you can get the point across without them. I try not to do it when on the computer but I do sometimes.
I wonder if those first drums pictured had been through a fire. Maybe they had been heated enough to anneal before the cast iron ears or the steel band bands (likely not the wood lining) tore them up.
I can envision a scenario whereby someone rescued parts from a garage which had burnt and thought they were "salvageable".
If you fear that soft wood will damage your drums then how in the world can you imagine that Kevlar is an alternative. Kevlar is much more abrasive, tough, and heat resistant than wood is.
If the damage done to those drums was due to wood then you should be buying facial tissue or whipped cream to reline your drums in the future!
Looking at those drums again all three look mangled. The worst is low drum which looks like the band ears gouged out both lines. It would help us to understand what is happening here if you could tell us if those two lines are grooves or raised ribs of cast iron.
You could be a victim of the old clover in the motor oil trick.
That would do that, how is the rest of the bearing surfaces?
The two lines are raised.
It's spelled "grammar". Just sayin', we've all been there.
I wonder if this is the result of very hard linings having been used in the past?
I recall back in the 60's(?) there was a fellow who would bond automatic transmission band material to Model T bands. If I remember correctly, he used several narrow strips of lining material with spaces between each strip. Although this may be far fetched, perhaps someone with a better memory than I will recall more details.
I have the wooden bands in the last model T i bought. I had heard in the past the kevlar was the hardest on the drums on this forum. Now i am wondering when i service it this summer if i should change the bands that work great out to save the drums!! Tim
I had heard on the forum that kevlar is better but i have wood bands in the last T 26 i just bought. I wonder if i should plan on changing them when i service the car this spring. Because of this excessive wear?? It works great like it is but!! Tim
Sorry about the two posts. I could see it had posted. Tim
Tim, if the bands are good I would not replace them. Wood bands will not damage your drums.
Thanks, I knew something didn't look right, although my Grandmother's nickname was spelled "Grammer" --but, yes, the other word really is "grammar," Dyslexics Lure! Uh, Rule! (Dang, spell check didn't catch that!)
Here is another band to consider...it was advertised 30 years ago as the latest in band technology. In 1985 it cost $65.
Can't tell much about them except they are composite and the photos don't show much. Anybody want them?
Steel rivets would do that.
Right. There have been steel rivets used by mistake or by owners who didn't know.
Took a lining off and thought those rivets were a challenge to shear off with the chisel.
Yep. Steel alright
Rivet tang piece stuck to magnet!
To many people have used the wooden bands for to many years to make the claim that they aren't any good.
For some reason in this case it appears they caused excessive ware. Was it the wood material?
There have been drums that wind up in a similar condition using Kevlar or cotton. Why it happens is the question.
Studied your photo a bit more. Strange happenings. But real wear too.
"ridges" of high metal match the oil grooves in wood bands. Low metal is where the wood lining ate at the drums. It does seem like 'high ridges' there. The low band lining is about 1/2 gone compared to the reverse and brake.
In my experience the wood lining on my low band lasted 9 years, but wore faster when I had an 'out of oil' issue for a short time. The T stalled on a grade in low, low pedal gone, wood band slipping for lack of oil.
Looking close, at the wood band, the low speed in center is worn down too much for a low mileage engine, leaving no gap of the oil groove that is in the wood bands. Those bands look just like Guinn bands, same wood that I have used.
What would cause the wood to wear down that much and take the metal with it?
My guess is too tight an adjustment, or worn or no band springs, not letting the band up off the drum. Or really riding a low pedal. That and perhaps low oil, or little oil, letting the wood lining slip and the metal drum get worn.
As you stated the car was a 'trailer queen' so it got little practical road use, low oil could have been a cause. Too tight from initial assembly too, if the owner never drove much and didn't comprehend signs of tight bands. The engine could turn over to start OK, but running with such tight band would be source of wear.
My guess is the wood linings were too tight on the metal drum for what ever reason, and done wrecked havoc with the drums
I'll say it again. You don't use wood tools to cut metal.
I think the wrong conclusion is being jumped to. It would be like finding insulin in someone's refridgerator and blaming their diabetes on storing insulin in the fridge.
What if there were a combination of tight bands and grinding compound in the oil. This could have happened when the cylinders were honed and or the valves ground or even in fitting bearings, if abrasive compound were used in any of these precesses. Grinding compound would get embedded in the wood and then do a number on the drums.
At any rate, it is rare to have such drum wear with any type of band lining. The usual cause of drum scoring would be rivets or the ends of bands but not the linings. Usual problem with tight or slipping kevlar linings would be overheating. That would give the drums a blue black color.
I have wood bands in my '27 and really like them I replaced a old set of cotton bands (not that I am saying anything against them).
In my '13 I put kevlar on the brake and have cotton on the low and reverse. I have just seen toooo many wrecked reverse drums from people running kevlar just a little bit tight.
Looking at this the thought has occured to me to maybe get the drums nitrided. It would certainly improve the wear properties and it would not cost much. Yes the drums might have to be removed from the shafts (although maybe not). I may stop be the the treaters and get a cost. I'm betting less than $100.00 for the whole set.
Nitriding gets steel to about 52 Rockwell and about .003" thick.
I need to see how it might work on these cast drums. The new ones are cast ductile I believe
If abrasive contamination in the oil lodged in the wood to wear out the low drum I would expect the same wear pattern on the other drums. It should be worst on the brake drum. In addition all the bearings should be similarly contaminated.
Bearing cap removal is needed. If the crank and rod journals are not similarly trashed then the abrasive oil hypothesis fails.
Thanks Stephen, I thought more about it last night and i am going to leave the wood bands in because they work so well. I pulled the inspection cover off last night and there are no visible signs of wear.. No more than any other working T trans. Its made it this many years and i dont want to fix what isnt broken. I have other things that i need to work on!!Tim
I disagree that wood won't wear away metal. I have seen wood and plastic both run in contact with metal for extended periods and the metal goes away. This is not a short term thing, it takes time. There is a lot of missing information here though that makes a proper conclusion almost impossible to reach. What type of wood was used? Is it even wood? What was the hardness of the drums? Was the oil always free of abrasives? Was the oil always there?
As seen above with the "Custom Friction" bands shown above in John's post, there have been many attempts and the next best thing. Mike's bands may have just been that and actually turned out to be the worst.
Like Justin, have used wood lathe tools before, and the tools will wear. Most expensive hardened wood turning tools last, but you have to re-sharpen the worn cutting edges. Iron cutting tools of year ago likely worn down easily.
Lignum Vitae is a very hardwood, and we used it for lapping small diameter holes, would remove metal and polish.
The linings in Mike's case, the photos, clearly show these are typical wood linings, likely from Guinn, and are made of cottonwood.
But a spinning iron drum surface being strongly pinched against a rigid wood surface would wear down. Of course the wood wears too, as shown in the photo.
Dan, what type of rivets are you using in those wooden lined bands you showed?
Your rivets look to be steel split rivets. I would respectfully submit that you might do better with soft aluminum pop rivets. When I pop rivet mine (from the inside just like your rivets went in) I remove the ball from the spread end of the rivet and then swage the tail of the rivet flat with the outside of the band. This really works great, when the band wears out you will see wear on the aluminum rivet head with no marks on the drum.
Boy,....this whole thread seems to leave a lot of unanswered confusion to me Terry. I firmly believe what you just said,....that soft aluminum pop rivets will not wear (no marks) the drums. And yet we are led (by some) to believe that wood bands will wear cast iron. I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that. I'm sure that wood will not wear cast iron unless some other factor (like abrasive for example) is introduced. (???)
This is the first time I have opened this thread since only the two postings were there. For personal reasons, I generally avoid commenting on "wood band" threads. But I do usually read some of them occasionally. I have a bit of an issue believing it has grown so much, both in drift and original question. So MUCH that I would like to have commented upon.
On the language degradation issue. I know that I border on being a grammar-Nazi myself (even though I do make some mistakes in grammar and spelling. But I must also say, LOUDLY, that many of the best, most honest, good people I have ever known were "proper English" challenged. And a few of them post here regularly. I do NOT want these people to in any way feel unwelcome here, or anywhere. They are GOOD people that deserve better than that.
On the original subject of this thread. Something ODD has happened here. That wear is NOT usual or normal in any way. Others have already said most of what needs to be said. I don't know what the truth is about it (at least not without close personal examination), but probably it has already been touched upon. The main thing that I would want to reiterate is that those drums NEED to be replaced. Their damage is too great to chance trying to use those drums without major repair. And the one time I did put new wood linings into an engine was because of a damaged (sharply scored) drum. I knew wood was the best option to work, and there, it did.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I would like to say something here, everyone keeps talking about cotton wood but I think what you mean is poplar. As far as I know cotton wood is no good for anything structural as it is so soft and fibrous that when you saw it makes strands like cotton hence the name. Same family of trees I think but entirely two different woods. KGB
Those ARE steel rivets.....I did not place them, they were in a band got at a swap that had old lining, the picture was to alert that steel rivets can be found and are wrong!
And Harold. You can believe, its your choice.
I just have personal knowledge that my brand new J&M drums were worn by wood lined bands. That is truth. Almost no wear on the brake, and no on reverse, but low drum has lines grooved in it now, nothing but wood ran on that drum for 9 years, and thousands of miles.
Is the drum wrecked? No, but you can drag a thumbnail over that former ground smooth new cast iron drum now and feel the lines in the metal, that iron drum isn't like new anymore. Some of the metal is gone.
Not blaming wood,.. I happen to believe wood is OK, but any wear can happen, maybe metal particles embedded in the lining? I do know that the Guinn wood bands have oil grooves, those could trap stuff? Don't know. But my new low drum has wear lines in it now, and it was only exposed to wood lining.
Now has Kevlar wrapped around it, will see in another 9 years what shape that low drum is in
By the way, the wood linings that ran on the drums in my above post were set with brass rivets, as recommended by Jim Guinn.
The most worn wood low lining never had the brass exposed to the iron drum. Only wood on the drum.
While I don't think the wood linings caused THAT much drum wear, anyone who thinks wood doesn't wear on steel is mistaken.
Anyone who has been around old machinery such as threshers, line shafts, cultipackers and such knows that wood DOES wear out steel shafts.
We saw it many times.
The least resilient material always wears first and most.
Wood, being more resilient than steel, wears more slowly but it wears too.
I don't think that anybody is saying that wood cannot wear metal just that wood will not wear a drum as severely as the drums which are shown in Mikes pictures above. Any band lining material be it wood, cotton or Kevlar will wear the drums down but, it takes a very long time. Because the band shown in Mikes picture is not unusually worn but, in fact appears to still be usable and the rivets are properly installed I suspect as others have already said that the drums were already heavily worn when the wooden bands were installed. It could also be that at one point the car was driven without enough oil in the engine but, if that's the case why aren't the bands burned up? If wood bands truly were the reason why the drums are shot why isn't everybody with wood bands in their cars experiencing similar problems? On the other hand though the drum surfaces are higher where the oil grooves on the bands are which suggests that the bands DID damage the drums. This is really strange. I guess the best thing we can do is restore out transmissions with good drums, bands, springs, pedal cams, pedals shafts, etc. and drive our cars properly and we should not have such problems no matter what band lining we have.