I just had a really disturbing incident that I feel is happening all to frequently. I recently made a comment on another posters forum conversation, inquiring if he had a part I needed. A day or so later I receive a PM from another T guy out east, who says he may have the part I'm looking for and that I should contact him. I did, and even spoke with him on the phone today. I asked him to send some photos to my cell, which he did. He told me what he paid for the items and what he wanted, which I thought was a little high. But after seeing the parts, which were original, I decided I wanted them but asked him if he could include shipping in that cost (the parts aren't that big and he's not that far from me, so maybe ten bucks). He then sends me a scathing email, claiming he was highly offended by my request and since he went to all the trouble of finding the parts and photographing them how could I have the nerve to ask him to "dig into his pockets" to pay for shipping, and that he would rather keep the parts or save them for a serious buyer. I was absolutely stunned by the radical turn-about in this guys behavior! I simply asked if he could include shipping ($10 at most) and he reacts as if I've insulted his wife and mother! What's wrong with people these days? Why is everybody so angry and soooooo easily offended and ready to snap! Sorry for the rant, but it does irk me.
It's the world we live in Bill, and it doesn't seem to be getting better, unfortunately.
Itís us here in the Northeast ... the cold weather has set in and it makes some of us cranky. Seriously ... hard to say why he got so upset. He could have simply said ... well, Iíd prefer you pay the shipping. Recently I sent some front end parts to a forum member for free ... if he would pay the shipping. The parts were in my ďbone pileĒ ... and he needed them. What goes around occasionally comes around, but is not expected. Yesterday I also received a generous gift of some used 1920s seat upholstery for patching my seats ... and the postage was paid. Merry Christmas !
Guess I would assume that I would be paying shipping on anything I buy and ask what the cost would be.
Bill I think I know who you talked to and I will warn you he already has cabin fever so this will be a long winter.
I always include the shipping unless the seller of the parts volunteers to pay before hand.
Is this person in the business of selling parts on a regular basis - is he a vendor ?
If not - he is a hobbyist.
If he is a hobbyist & if he was trying to help you out - he was doing you a favor.
You donít know what he had to do to locate & photograph the parts - maybe it was a lot of work on a cold day for very little money.
If that is the case - to expect free shipping is a bit much on your part.
Everybody has a bad day occasionally - it doesnít necessitate starting a thread about it.
Bill - did you make that offer via email?
Unfortunately email eliminates personality, and intonation. Intonation counts for so much in human relations - and that is what we are talking about here.
A phone call to him would probably save the day.
Freighter Jim, I've seen threads on this forum on a vast array of different topics, so for you to say I needn't have started one just because I'm upset is awfully bold. And the parts were well over $250, which to me isn't "very little money". And as a typical T guy, asking about possibly saving a buck or two on shipping cost is not uncommon - we are all trying to pinch pennies in this hobby and he never said anything about shipping costs. And when I asked him for a photo, I received them in less than ten minutes so I seriously doubt the had to go to any greater effort than to open a box in his basement and snap a few photos. My main beef is the rudeness and a general lack of civility I've noticed lately. Kindness, both in word and deed, goes a long way. I was always taught to treat others the way I'd want to be treated, which I've tried to live by. I suppose the next time you, Jim, or I have a negative experience, we should just keep it to ourselves.
Bill, I sell a few parts and often the cost of the parts could be less than the cost of shipping them. Also I must find packaging and make a 10 mile trip just to find the cost of shipping so I can tell the buyer. Then I must make the trip again to ship them.
I must say, i assume i will pat shipping if i buy something. I dont do a lot of selling, but when i do, i believe shipping costs are the buyers responsibilty.
I guess I figured that since that parts were costly and rather small, and therefore shipping would be minimal, that maybe he would consider including the cost to ship them. I've happily done this in the past when selling items, but I guess I should't expect the same courtesy from others. All he had to say is no, but the excessively rude and inflammatory email was what bothered me the most.
Bill some people think the world is out to get them. I agree all he needed to say is no.
There's no need to wonder who was on the other side of the proposed transaction mentioned in this thread. It was me.... and here is the note I sent Bill in response to his offer:
I received your text, and quick frankly find it to be insulting.
Let's review the facts:
You post on the T forum a note stating that you are seeking 1909 -1910 headlamp forks.
I have a pair, that I am not actively offering for sale. In fact, I have no real interest in selling them. Rather, I was making them available simply to help out another fellow Model T enthusiast. With the foregoing in mind, I offer to go to the shop, locate the forks, shoot and send you pictures, represent them to be in good shape, tell you with full transparency that I bought them from Mark (Cameron) years ago at Chickasha for $250 and that I will let you have them for exactly what I paid for them. Rather than simply saying yes or no, you ask me to include shipping.
No, I don't have any interest whatsoever in digging in my pocket to cover the shipping cost for you. In fact, I am no longer interested in selling the forks. I'll toss them back in the box and save them for a serious buyer.
Sure a bunch of snarly people on the forum this morning!! Must be the weather. Been wanting to slip this one in and now seems to be a good time to do so. About a year or so ago, Rae Green from Australia had a matched set of Utah plates for 1923. I happen to live in Utah and am the proud owner of a 1923 Model T Roadster. I contacted Rae, we agreed on a price and then I realized that we had not discussed shipping, which can be substantial from that part of the world. I suggested that he flip a coin, heads he would pay the freight and tails, I would pay it. He wrote back and said he had flipped the coin, that it ended up edgeways in the mud and that we should split the cost of shipping!! What a great response!! He didnít seize up at my suggestion and we had a little fun on a transaction that I will always remember him for. Good on ya, Mate!!
I once ran an ad looking for a specific part. I received an email from myself, describing the said part. I requested pictures, which I promptly took and sent to my email address. After reviewing the pictures, I quickly contacted myself, and sent the required funds. After a few days, I received the funds. I boxed the part up, and sent it out. It arrived a few days later, and I signed for it . I opened the box and was pleasantly surprised. I sent a thank you email to myself, and installed the said part. Best transaction ever.
Ed its hard to disagree with a deal like that. Jack Daron sent top parts to me at no cost and paid the shipping. Never asked for a dime. What can you say about a guy like that.I sent him shipping plus. Ed Im glad you were not disapointed with your deal. That was funny!
I had a friend that used to say: "'No' is a complete sentence"
That's all it should have taken to stop the deal.
Note to self: Never ask Timothy to absorb shipping.
It is hard to obsorb shipping when selling for what you paid. No deal. Cant do that. Nuff said.
Just my opinion- you may feel differently.
This is petty. And you got your panties in a wad.
If you own a beautiful brass car, and if you feel the need to negotiate shipping costs, then, you may need to find a hobby that you can afford.
This feud should never have made it to our forum. We are here to help each other, not complain about each other.
With all respect to the seller, maybe he's old; as in old age and old school.
Some older people, I find especially us men, don't get that 'yard sales items' are typically negotiated.
I also find people are angry and poor mental health is on the rise for several reasons. One reason: DON'T WATCH THE NEWS OR ANYTHING POLITICAL NO MATTER WHAT SIDE OF THE ISLE YOU ARE ON. Sit in the middle of the isle with popcorn and watch the show like a tennis match! lol
When I was 26 my grandfather stopped buying coffee at McDonalds because the price went up to 50 cents. I swore I would never be that way. Now I'm 59 now and damned if I'm not just like him!!
Problem was the seller gave a price that was not negotiable therefore no wiggle room. If it was his original cost, I can see where he wanted to recover it. There is no doubt in my mind that it would cost ten bucks to ship those forks the way USPS prices things. Just an unfortunate set of circumstances.
I agree. Myself, I think the offer price was quite low for what they were.
So now we know that somewhere, there are headlight forks looking for a car to fit them on, and somewhere there is a car looking for some headlight forks...
Frankly, in hindsight, both sides of the negotiation appear to have made critical mistakes, and I'll bet 1 month from now, some lessons will be settling in...(if not already)
Bill, I'm in a good mood and don't wish to offend you or anyone else. Tim was offering you a pair of century-old parts for his cost. You asked him to throw in the shipping. Essentially you were asking him to sell you some probably-rare parts for below his cost. By the time he packs the parts - possibly having to purchase a carton, take the parts to the post office, insures them for $250, then pays the postage, he will have (at minimum wage) $20-$25 invested in time, packaging, gas, and shipping. I wouldn't have thrown in the shipping either.
Now I see both sides of the story I tend to agree with the seller. I think if I were offering rare parts at my cost to help a guy out, I'd too be offended by a nickle and dime approach.
BTW I cannot believe you can send headlamp forks anywhere for $10 bucks today.
Hasn't anyone else out there asked if someone would include shipping in the asking price? I've had a lot of folk ask me and I was never offended or insulted. And thanks for helping, John, I do have my panties in a wad! Time to change them and this post.
And never to discuss shipping costs again.
Just a case of miscommunication between parties - and both of them with a hair-trigger.
Been selling my extra stuff last few months.
Realy irks me when i strike a deal and i mention shipping price and i get "oh thought that was included in the price" or ask best offer for somthing and strike a deal and buyer backs out cause they dont wanna pay shipping
Freight costs are high, and a lot of parts are heavy or bulky. Often, the effort by the seller to package parts and get them to a shipping point is considerable. No one likes to pay for that, but the cost is real. Buyer and seller both need to be aware of it, and realistic. If you don't want to pay shipping, pick up from the seller, or buy only at swap meets.
Good one! Ron Horton!
"Flipped a coin and it landed edgeways in the mud!"
I will remember that one!
Still grinning... Thanks!
This kinda stuff really slips my bands too.
(sorry, I usually say that it really grinds my gears when Iím mad, but that doesnít work with Tís.)
As long as we are talking about "selling at cost", one might want to consider how long a vendor has held onto a particular part...
If purchased 10 years ago, those $250 headlight forks cost the equivalent of $297 in 2017 dollars.
If purchased in 1997, $250 then was the equivalent of $384 today.
From this perspective, $250 today, including packing and handling, sounds like a real bargain even without shipping included.
Apparently these headlamp forks aren't hard to come by. Otherwise it wouldn't be prudent to nickel and dime the price.
I have been selling some of my extra stuff for a while on the classifieds. I list them, the price and say plus shipping in the add, right up front so there is no question. I only charge what the USPS charges. I don't charge for packaging, materials, trips to the Post Office or my time. I think that is fair. I'm not trying to make a living at it, I've already done that.(I'm retired) If I make a few bucks, fine. I'm mainly just trying to clean out this stuff that I thought I might need some day, been collecting stuff for thirty years. I probably price some stuff too high, and some too low. If it doesn't sell I'll usually come down in price till it does, unless I'm pretty sure the price is good. I'm mainly just trying to get this stuff to someone who can use it, it's not doing me or anyone else any good setting around in boxes. JMHO Dave
And, if anyone isn't happy, I'll do what I can to make it right. So far, that hasn't been necessary. I try to describe stuff as truthfully and as best that I can in the original listing as I have no way to post pictures, other than texting them. Fortunately, I have a good friend that helps me out with them if I need them posted on the forum for which I am very grateful. Dave
There is a pair listed in the classified now for $275.00 with shipping included.
For Bill to knowingly ask Tim to sell the forks for less than he had in them, and the fact that the price was on the cheap side to start with, well I can sure see why Tim was offended. I agree with several of the posters that this kind of complaining should never have been placed on the forum.
When I sell anything, whether on ebay or personally, it is automatically understood that the buyer is responsible for shipping costs. Shipping is not just the cost the shipper charges you. Shipping also includes finding the right size box for the part, as too big a box will increase the shipping cost, bubblewrap to wrap the part with, addressing the box and in most cases, a trip to the post office or UPS store (possibly in the snow) to find out the actual cost for shipping and to ship it off. Time is a precious commodity that many of us don't have a lot of. Jim Patrick
My story is a little different. Shipping on some parts from here was in the vicinity of $70. I managed to have a friend take them to the US in his luggage and post them on from there. Saved the buyer $60 or so. So he sends me the price of the bits with $10 for postage and asked me to let him know if it was any dearer!!!!!
Allan from down under.
I'm really sorry I posted this heat-of-the moment thread and I apologize to Tim Kelly. I was really upset by his abrupt cancellation of the sale, but I respect his position on refusing to include shipping on an item he simply wanted to recoup what he had paid for. The forum is a great place to find help but it's not the place to air grievances.
If I could erase this entire post, I would but since I can't my apology to all will have to suffice.
Bill it takes a real man to say that. You have my respect.
Drive safe and often!
Jim, maybe I should start charging for the time I spent finding these parts and for storage too, those are expenses also. I don't charge anything other than what the USPS charges as I said. Also, as far as I am concerned, finding and searching for these parts is as much fun as using them. Kind of like duck hunting or mushroom hunting. Dave
Yes, I can respect that too.
As for shipping cost......It can get into a grey area. I can see what Jim says above. There truly is more to the cost than the actual shipping. On the other hand, there are lots of people (Companies and individuals) who use shipping as another source of income. You don't have to watch much TV to see it. "We are already giving you this unvbelievably low price, but since we're such great guys, we're gonna throw in another one free of charge. Just pay extra shipping" Yeah right! For a company, they already have overhead. Rent. lights. Water. Sewage. They don't charge extra for those things. It's already in the price of the goods. "Handling" should be in the price as well. I don't like "Shipping and Handling" fees. "Shipping", is just that. "Handling" can be anything they want and it is often a place to gain more money without the customer knowing it until it's too late, as the amount is usually not mentioned. Some individuals do the same. I don't think it is as bad as it once was, but a while back, Ebay was rampant with it. You buy some widget for an unbelievably low price and then pay $40 shipping. At least they did quote the shipping up front. To me though, it wreaked of underhandedness. I don't sell a lot of stuff, but when I do, it's usually in a flat rate box. I know what that costs and that's what I quote my customer. Tape, bubble wrap, wadded up newspaper, etc...well, that's usually recycled from things I've bought except the tape, of course. I absorb the cost. Guess that makes me a poor business man. I'll take that. But I doubt I ever get the reputation for cheating someone.
Ah, David beat me to it, and wasn't nearly so verbose.
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and a Prosperous New Year! Bill wants this Thread buried. Let's move forward or open a new thread on the evils of shipping.
Green John from NE Pennsylvania