Model T Ford Branch Assembly Plant numbers and markings

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2009: Model T Ford Branch Assembly Plant numbers and markings
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 10:09 pm:

I was sent an e-mail with a question from the Ford Barn Site that asked:

“Did Ford stamp assembly plant codes onto the Model T body as was done with the Model A bodies?
That would be a series of 1-3 letters followed by a grouping of numbers such as "P 2627".
I saw such a stamping on a 26-27 Tudor body once but failed to write it down."

I (Hap--again) sent an e-mail answer but I also wanted to share the information here and hopefully spark the interest of a few more 1924-1927 Model T owners to go lift up the front floor mat and look to see if their body has a Branch Assembly number or marking on it. I wrote:

1. I have been trying for several years to take Dave Sturges’ “Model A Assembly Plant and Body Number” article (last revision I have is the 8/20/06 and is located at: http://www.mafca.com/data_assembly.html ) and work backwards from. I hope to verify if the procedure used by the Assembly Plants producing the Model A Fords was used earlier with the Model T Ford assembly plants. And if so when did they begin stamping the assembly plant code onto the body?

2. So far I have been fortunate and folks have shared some information with me that has gotten us started but I do not believe it is a large enough sample size to “prove” how it was or was not done at all the assembly plants as well as at the Highland Park plant that also assembled complete Model Ts. Below is a summary of what I have collected.

3. We have the most data points on the Des Moines Assembly Plant which apparently stamped their complete name in several of the bodies assembled onto cars there. Note – we do not believe Des Moines actually assembled the bodies – as the closed car bodies were quite complex but rather that they assembled the bodies onto the chassis they assembled at the Des Moines Branch Assembly Plant. I think that is also true for the Model A Fords – I do not think the assembly plants produced the complex Fordor bodies but rather Briggs & Murray and finally Ford produced them.

The following bodies all have Des Moines stamped into them and are discussed at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/104972.html listed in order they appear in the forum listing:

Dennis Flemming’s 192? Centerdoor

Eric Hylen’s 1922 Centerdoor that he sold but that he graciously helps us out with information on Centerdoors by posting pictures etc.

Robert Kiefaber ‘s Centerdoor (has two – but one has the Des Moines).

And Tom Fritzler was mentioned in that posting, but Tom posted a photo of a friend’s 1923 Fordor body with the Des Moines stamped into the wood (ref: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/6/123.html )

Ron Dupree has a 1924 Tudor with Des Moines stamped into the wooden member under the passenger seat. (Originally posted: Date: 6/20/06 14:50 but no longer available on the web site)

Note they all had the full name (with the “s” on the end that was used back then) stamped into the wood.

4. I need to confirm that Jeremy Locke found his number LA-1752-3-27 on his 1927 Fordor and not some other body/car. I sent him an e-mail tonight asking him to confirm that. Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/91242.html?1241739619

5. Brian Lawrence has a 1927 Fordor with a number on his body sill" it is HP A 11636. It is on the driver’s side right by the parking brake lever. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/60612.html?1216380968 I sent him a note asking him to send me a photo of that area when he has a chance.

6. Kyle Augustin found the number 5227 then below that is 0C222637 on his Ford coupe body sill. We were able to correlate the OC to Oklahoma City based on the Model A (not T) Ford Club information. And the 5 2 27 would probably be May 2 1927. see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/31535.html

7 We still don’t have a clue about some of the numbers such as the 1926 Tudor one posted at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40604.html . We did eliminate some things it might have stood for but we didn’t figure out a reasonable answer for which if any branch the letters CP stand for (no it is not Chester PA see the posting for why.)

8. We still have lots to document and even more to learn. But I believe by the end of the Model T production some of the plants were using an Assembly Plant stamp of some kind. In the case of Oklahoma City and Los Angeles it appears they used the same two letter code that was used by the 1928-1931 Model A Fords. Des Moines – may have switched over but in the early 1920s they clearly used their full name.

9. Thanks to Tom for spotting the question on the Ford Barn site ( (ref: http://www.fordbarn.com/tforum/messages2/213719.html ) and putting me in touch with them. None of us have time to read all of the postings – and Tom was correct – I liked this one.

10. If anyone has a 1926-27 Fordor – please look in the wood sill area around the emergency brake area. Also others with the metal floor board channels – please check the metal on all sides of the front floor boards. Please let us know if you find anything.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 01:38 am:

Hap, I don't know if you need it or not, but the number on my '25 coupe is KC11728-6, the dash being a sideways 1. I assume that the KC stands for Kansas City. The car is from this area (N.W. MO.) from at least the early '60s that we know of. It may have spent its life not too far from home. Hope this helps put the puzzle together. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard G Goelz on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 09:32 am:

Hap, my early 24 Fordor has no numbers on the body or wood.
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 10:17 am:

Hap,

I have also seen a 25 Fordor with the HP stamp in the sill just inside the drivers door.

Everyone else, please check your coupes as well!

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Miles on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 11:33 am:

The only number I can find on my '25 Coupe is the body number on the passenger side floor board riser -- 395638B. I found nothing on the sill on the driver side. Is there someplace else I should be looking?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 11:46 am:

This is a slight tangent to this discussion but it does correspond with evidence of assembly branch identification on a Model T Ford.

My 1917 roadster had the 4" X 2.25" tag pictured below tacked to the middle top bow. I discovered it after removing the top material (not the original top material - it had been replaced in the late 1940s with green oil cloth).

The upper left hand corner says "Ford Form 2317." The top middle says "FROM." "Ford Motor Company" can be plainly seen, below it which says "MINNEAPOLIS MINN" with "MINN" pretty much obscured.

The original owner of my car resided in Cokato, Minnesota which is 50 miles west of Minneapolis.

Has anyone seen a similar tag which indicates an assembly branch? Mine was affixed to the top of the bow, obscured by the top material, indicating (at least to me) that the top bows may have been delivered to the Minneapolis branch sans top material and the top material was attached to the bows at the branch - not in Detroit.

Erik Johnson
tag


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph W. Rudzik on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 12:19 pm:

David,
Where did you find the number on your '25 coupe?
I have looked for one on my '25 coupe and cannot seem to locate one.
The coupe came out of Springfield, Missouri, but I have long suspected that all my T's have been Kansas City cars. Would like to find out.
By the way, the plant still stands down on Winchester Ave. in KC.

Joe R.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dave rudy on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 11:20 pm:

Hap, Checked the numbers on my roadster. # on the engine and number on the frame near passenger door match.(C647234). Number on the firewall, Just under the rad brace bracket is W 3106. I was told this was a '26 canadian roadster. Have no Idea what the number on the firewall means. Any idea? Dave.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 11:29 pm:

Dave,

The C in the engine number would signify a Canadian car. It most likely would use Robertson head screws in the body.

Since your car is Canadian, my guess is that the W signifies the Walkerville branch in Ontario.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 01:04 am:

Joe, mine was stamped in the wood on the drivers side just inside of the door. Some are stamped in the steel floorboard riser on the passenger side. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 02:08 am:

1. None of us has as much information by ourselves as we have together. Thanks to everyone for taking a look – even if you didn’t/don’t find a number – I still really appreciate the support. On my 1931 Model A Ford Slant Windshield Town Sedan, I have never been able to find a Branch Assembly number either. So it appears that sometimes they skipped a car or two – and even more often with the Model Ts.

2. Reference the item 7 above – which said, “We still don’t have a clue about some of the numbers such as the 1926 Tudor one posted at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40604.html . We did eliminate some things it might have stood for but we didn’t figure out a reasonable answer for which if any branch the letters CP stand for (no it is not Chester PA see the posting for why.) “ That picture is shown below:



While CP is not listed TC was listed as TWIN CITY, ST. PAUL, MINNESOTA on the Model A Ford assembly plant codes. Now why they would have the person strike twice with the cold chisel to make a “T” when they could provide him with a “T” letter stamp I do not know. Also what about the left over “P” that is not listed on the Model A listing? For the additional “P” some of the plants used an extra letter some of the time. See/download the Model A listing at: http://www.mafca.com/data_assembly.html .

3. For David Stroud –

Yes, KC could easily stand for Kansas City. Of course it might not – but Dave Sturges’ article (same Model A link in para 2 above) stated, “Note that most of the letter codes are from one to five letters and there is a systematic way most of the letters were derived from the city location of the assembly plant. When assembly plant location cities have a single word, the letter code is generally the first and last letters (i.e. Buffalo - BO, Charlotte - CE, Chester - CR, etc.) Assembly plant locations having two words generally use the initial letter from each word (i.e. New Orleans - NO, Oklahoma City - OC, Twin City - TC and so forth).” But for some reason they did NOT list KC next to Kansas City – instead they left that one blank. Any other KC numbers?

4. For Scott Miles –

There have been several folks that found a similar number that ends in “B.” Both Dave Sosnoski and myself are still trying to figure out what the “B” stands for. I would love to “crowbar it” and say that it stands for Buffalo –but I don’t think I have enough evidence to support that at the moment. There was an assembly plant at Buffalo during the Model A period and it used “BO” as their mark. I checked and Buffalo is listed as an Assembly plant for Model T Fords in the 1926 Ford Industries Pamphlet

5. For Dave Rudy

Reference your CANADIAN roadster. One advantage of working on this late at night/early in the morning I am willing to take a “leap of faith” as it sounds very likely at the moment. Hopefully it will still sound good when I read it again tomorrow. You posted “Just under the rad brace bracket is W 3106. I was told this was a '26 canadian roadster. “ Again reference Dave Sturges’ “Model A Assembly Plant and Body Number” article located at: http://www.mafca.com/data_assembly.html which says, “The letter ’W” was used by “WINNIPEG, MANITOBA “—Note the Assembly Branch markings have not been documented on the firewall before – but that could be as simple as we have not asked the owners of Canadian Model Ts to look on their firewalls before. So if you have or know of someone who has a Canadian Model T ask them to check on their metal firewall near the radiator rod. Dave – please confirm that the “W” is on the engine side of the firewall near the radiator rod. Dave I plan to send you a copy of the “Vintage Ford” article about the Canadian cars. It looks at the 1920-21 but many of the features are similar on the later cars – square drive Robertson screws in some places, the horn button on top of the steering wheel etc. If you don’t see something in your e-mail drop me a reminder. For other Canadian Model T owners or those who know of a Canadian T please look for:

M for MONTREAL, QUEBEC
T for Toronto, Ontario
W for Winneipeg, Manitoba
V for Vancouver, British Columbia
And please check the metal channel around the front floor board area also – just in case.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 02:49 am:

For Erik Johnson,

1. Actually your posting is very helpful. It along with the e-mail from John who lives in Australia added several more important puzzle pieces to our search. John sent the following from Lorin Sorenson’s book “FORD FACTORY”:

“While a new Ford building was constructed in Des Moines in 1916, it wasn’t until September, 1920, that car assembly began there. Up to that time the facility had been used as a branch sales and service operation.

Along with the Model T assembly, this plant also began a body-finishing operation in 1920. By 1922 this department was turning out 165 coupe and sedan bodies, while the assembly lines were completing 160 cars and 100 Fordson tractors a day. Excess Model T bodies were being shipped to Ford plants in southern and western states and as far east as Cleveland.

At the height of body-building activity, in 1926 the Des Moines plant had 1,000 workers and was producing both open and closed bodies.”

2. (Back to Hap) – That information brings up several more questions. When it says “body-finishing operation” does it mean the upholstering and painting of the body or something else? It appears by 1926 they were clearly actively “body-building” both open and closed car bodies. That combined with the several closed cars that have “Des Moines” stamped into their wood body – may indicate the “Des Moines” was stamped to indicate where the body was assembled rather than where the car was assembled. I would have never guessed that a branch assembly plant was putting together the complex wood framed closed cars. That surprised me. We could use help in verifying any and all of that. Does anyone have or know of a “Des Moines” stamped car that has a verified history? I.e. we know which assembly plant the car came from. (From memory – I think you (Eric) may have shared that in the past -- if so – please let us know again or remind me and I will go look for the information. It sounds like there is a possibility of cars being assembled at other assembly plants but using a body that was assembled at Des Moines and it may have the Des Moines stamp in it. If that is true, then it would support that the Des Moines full name was more body related than assembly plant related.

3. The name Des Moines on the open car top fits well with the description “body-finishing operation” thank you for posting that. I wonder if there are any local records or information on what they did at the Des Moines plant?

4. Minor correction – earlier I thought that the “s” at the end of Des Moines was only used for a few years. I checked and it looks like Des Moines has always been spelled that way. So there is another Ford related city out there that changed the spelling of the city’s name around the first part of the 1900s (or I remembered it wrong).

5. Again, thanks to everyone for helping me with this and helping other folks with their questions. Thank you.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 01:40 pm:

Brian and Nate sent the photo below of the number HP A 11636 from the driver’s side of their 1927 Model T Ford Fordor.



Thank you for the great photo. Thank you also for including the ruler and nickel in the photo to help give us the size of the letters. You can see a picture of the car on their profile at: http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=thewiz-users .

Note the HP and how it intertwined. Do any of the other folks with an HP number stamped onto their car have a similar designed HP? Brian originally posted his information under the title “Body Number” [ located at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/111721.html?1256400793 ] but at the moment, I think that HP number may be more related to a Highland Park assembly number than a body number. But as others add information – we hopefully will be able to confirm or correct that assumption.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

PS Please keep those cards and letters coming (ok -- e-mails, pictures, and postings)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brian c lawrence on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 02:06 pm:

Hap,

Thanks a lot for posting that picture for us. I'm tellin ya I REALLY need some practice and or training on computers. Anyway, don't you think that it's weird how the H and the P in those letters are connected? Do you think that the number is a factory Ford number? Or could it be that the Fordorbodies were made by a coach builder because they were still wooded bodies, and it is their number? My car is totally complete and mostly original (mostly) The frame and engine # match 14679976, what month it was made I do not know. Again thanks.


Brian & Nate


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 02:41 pm:

Brian & Nate,

Again thank you for taking the time to send in the photo and information. Yes, I think the HP is designed that way. I am hoping that some other folks with an HP stamp will share if theirs is the same or different. If we can find some touring or roadsters with that same HP style stamp, then we can reasonably conclude it is not an independent body maker stamp, as Ford Motor Company was producing the roadster and touring bodies and that was not contracted out. That should also be the case for the Coupe & Tudor. And I don’t know if Ford produced their own Model T Fordor bodies or not. It is well documented that Briggs and Murray produced the Fordor (standard, deluxe, and Town Sedan) for the 1928-1931 Model A Fords and that in addition to Briggs and Murray, Ford Motor Company also produced the 1931 Slant Windshield 160 series bodies. But I don’t recall ever reading or hearing who produced the 1923 to 1927 Model T Fordor bodies. There is a picture of a Ford Motor Company display at the 1923 Michigan State Fair that shows how the logs were cut, rough lumber cut, body lumber pieces cut, and a Fordor wood skeleton assembled from the wood grown in the Ford company forest. If someone has information on who and where the Fordor bodies were produced -- please let us know or hints on where to look would also be appreciated. Note as mentioned above at the posting at:-- http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/6/123.html Tom Fritzler has a friend who is rewooding a 1923 Fordor that has the DesMoine stamp on the wood sill. That along with the information above that John sent from the “Ford Factory” book seems to point towards Ford assembling all the bodies – including the Fordor. But I hope someone can verify that one way or the other rather than we just make our best conclusion about it.

Your engine number 14,679,xxx falls on the Jan 24, 1927 engine daily log books ref page501 & 535 of Bruce’s out of print book but it is also in his CD. That is the date the engine and transmission were assembled or the date the serial number was sent to another branch for assembly plant for them to use on an engine they assembled. Note that the Model T engine assembly had already moved to the River Rouge Plant ant the engines were moved from there to the Highland Park plant or other assembly plant. Since the frame and engine numbers match it – that indicates they belong together. And they would have been assembled some time near the Jan 24, 1927 date. Sooner if at the Highland Park plant and a little later if the engine number had been shipped and stamped onto an engine assembled at a branch plant. Note regardless of where the engine was assembled, if it was for the assembly line, once it was a completely assembly it was stamped with a serial number. One the engine was place into the frame, then the same number was stamped into the frame.

Again, thank you for your help.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 05:29 pm:

26 Tudor Michigan HP2424, Build date 26 May 1926, located on the drivers side steel cross floor bracket.
David


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dave rudy on Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 11:54 pm:

Hap. Winnipeg is probably correct As I live in Manitoba. about 100miles from Winnipeg. It appears the car did not stray too far. Yes the W 3106 is on the engine side of the firewall, about 2" below the rad bracket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dave rudy on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 08:27 pm:

Hap, Checked two more Canadian cars. Both(w1205&w1116) have the numbers stamped just below the rad bracket on the engine side. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 08:00 am:

For David Dare,

Thank you so much! Would you please let us know if the “HP” is that same style as shown below or if it looks quite a bit different? And is it about the same size? I.e. somewhere around 3/4 inch high by 1 1/16 inch wide? On Brians Fordor they were stamped into the wood on the drivers side sill area. Ruler cut from the original picture and turned sideways.



For Dave Rudy,

Thank you so much! If you have a chance would you please let us know approximately how high and wide the letters and numbers are? And if you have a chance to take a picture that would be great also. You don’t need to shrink it down for the forum – I’ll gladly do that. You can e-mail a photo by clicking on my name at the beginning of this posting and my e-mail address is the third line down.

For other Canadian owners,

For any 1926-1927 and also earlier years --- would you please check to see if you have a letter and number on the engine side of your firewall just under the radiator rod. If you do or do not find anything please let us know. And if you have any history on your car – I know there are a few fortunate folks that know where their car was originally sold – that would be very helpful also.

For everyone,

Thank you all for your help and support.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave_Sosnoski on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 07:27 pm:

Some interesting information here - not sure I agree with all of it.

1. I'm not sure how your getting that the W signifies Winnipeg? In Bruce's production totals up through 1927 there is not even a branch listed in Winnipeg. The only branch which starts with a W is Walkerville - and it happens to be in Ontario Canada. The W may signify Winnipeg for the Model A, but I don't see how it could for the Model T. I still think the W is Walkerville.

2. Interesting that the Des Moines plant was turning out coupe bodies in 1922 - 1923. I thought the coupe bodies at this time were built by either Fisher or Briggs. If you look in the parts list they list different hinges (among other parts) for the Fisher or Briggs bodies. Which style did the Ford bodies use?

Same holds for the Centerdoor Sedan. I thought they were produced by Fisher and Wadsworth. The parts listing is very clear in that there are different part numbers for the Fisher and Wadsworth bodies, and where there are not different part numbers it says to specify the body make. If Des Moines was also building bodies, were they Ford bodies, Fisher or Wadsworth and if they were Ford, why are there no Ford part numbers?

3. The 1924 Ford Industries has a chapter on body building where it states that all of the bodies except for the Coupe were being built in the River Rouge plant.

4. I agree that the 26 Coupe bodies were built in-house. I read somewhere about these bodies being shipped as sub-assemblies and that each branch had fixtures for assembling the body (don't remember right now where I got that from). The difference is that the 26-27 bodies were an all-steel body, not a composite body like the earlier ones were.

I think (but can't prove) that the branch identifications were the location where the car was assembled, not necessarily where the body was actually constructed.

It would be interesting to go back and look at the primary source for some of this information.

Respectfully submitted,
Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 10:26 pm:

Dave,

You have some excellent comments and those are the types of questions we need to run down before we can say for sure we think we know what the letters stand for etc. And having access to the original sources and other primary documents would help us better understand how things were really done.

You are correct that Bruce McCalley’s listing of Model T Production only shows Walkerville listed on pages 463 to 470 of his book. But on page 22 of James C Mays book “Ford and Canada – 100 Years Together” May’s has, “Mar 14, 1915. Ford announces a new assembly and service plant to be guilt in Toronto at the corner of Christi and Dupont Streets. The five-storey building will house a large showroom and a garage with more than 12,000 square foot of space.” On page 23 he notes it opened on Feb 22, 1915. On page 28 he notes that on Nov 8, 1916, the first Ford rolled out of the new assembly plant in Toronto. On page 29 he shares, “Nov 18, 1916 – assembly begins in Ford’s newest plant – in Montreal. Same page 29, Dec 31, 1916 a new assembly plan has come on line in Winnipeg.

So I believe there was one in Winnipeg at least in Dec 31, 1916. Ford Canada followed Ford USA’s policy of shipping parts as well as knocked down cars. The freight bill was reduced that way. I believe by the late 1920s there would have been several Canadian Branch Assembly locations. I will have to do addition research to confirm there was still one in Winnipeg in the late 1920s – but I think there is a good chance there was. At http://www.rosietheriveter.org/nps/FordBldg/Chapter2.pdf it has, “In 1925, Ford opened an assembly plant in a suburb of Paris and the following year a plant in Berlin. Meanwhile, Ford of Canada paralleled the growth of its parent in the U.S., adopting the five-dollar day and expanding across the country, opening branches in Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Regina, Calgary, and Vancouver. Farther south, the Ford Motor Company opened assembly plants in Brazil and Mexico. Ford entered the Asian market in 1922, building an assembly plant at Yokohama, Japan.17 [17The Ford Industries: Facts About the Ford Motor Company and Its Subsidiaries (Detroit:
Ford Motor Company, 1924), 135, 141; Nevins, Ford: The Times, The Man, The Company, 355-
360, 371-378.]

I need to quit for now – but your comments and questions are excellent. Also the way the “Ford Factory” worded their sentence it might mean they finished the upholstery and paint – so we still need to clarify what really happened.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dave rudy on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 08:12 pm:

Hap, the letter "W" is 3/8" high, while the numbers are 1/4" I'll try and get a photo, Dave R.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 08:35 pm:

Dave,

Thank you so much!

Does anyone else know if any other Canadian Model T's 1924 to 1927 have a letter and a number on the engine side of the firewall just below the radiator rod? I wonder if any of the Australian or New Zealand etc. firewalls may have a stamped letter even though the body was usually produced locally by then?

Note at this point we have too small a sample size to say "We know the answer." But it appears plausible that the letter on the firewall of a Canadian car may correlate to what the 1928-1931 Model A Fords used.

M for MONTREAL, QUEBEC
T for Toronto, Ontario
W for Winnipeg, Manitoba
V for Vancouver, British Columbia

But the above makes us wonder what if anything did Windsor -- the main Canadian Ford plant put on the firewall? Also the Model A Ford letters were probably on the metal sills around the front floor boards. Still lots to discover and then we need to figure out what if anything it means.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 11:43 pm:

CP = Copenhagen? But how on earth should a danish assembled Ford end up in the US? The traffic goes more in ythe opposit direction :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 10:18 pm:

Michael,

Thank you for the humor. In the picture much earlier in this posting I am still hoping that the TCP is for Twin Cities. But we have not found other information to support that yet.

Below is a paragraph from the 1926 "Ford Industries" about Copenhagen -- it appears it was a major assembly plant for the Model T.



A big thank you to Dave Rudy who sent me the following picture of the W 3106 stamped into the firewall of his 1926 Canadian Roadster. Has anyone else seen similar markings and if so is it likely that your car was produced at the Winnipeg, Manitoba Ford Branch Assembly plant? If you have other markings – do you have any feel for where it may have been assembled? And also please let us know what markings or “no markings” on the Canadian 1925-1927 or so cars.



Anyone find any Australian markings?

I'm behind on answering some questions -- but I am working on them.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l915 Model T Ford Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 12:54 am:

Hi Hap,
I don't believe there are any special New Zealand assembly markings used for Ts. I have not seen any in my limited travels - maybe another NZ member can confirm?
Certainly no special markings on Albert (1926 NZ assembled Canadian built), or on my spare firewalls.
Cheers
Adrian


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 05:23 am:

Adrian,

Thank you so much for posting. That is good news. If the firewalls were stamped with a W in New Zealand -- then it would be highly unlikely that the car or truck had been assembled in Winnipeg. There might be one or two that had been imported sometime over the years -- but there should not be many since New Zealand opened its on assembly plant.

And thank you to Allen Peters for checking a friend’s 1926 roadster. It has W 1666 on the firewall just under the radiator support rod. That car is located in Carman, Manitoba so if it never went to far from the assembly plant that produced it -- that seems to make sense (at least early this morning).

Respectfully Submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman on Friday, October 30, 2009 - 06:27 am:

Hap, after some more enquiries, while there were three (I believe) assembly plants in NZ, none used any special markings, so we only have the engine numbers to go on.
Cheers
Adrian


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Friday, October 30, 2009 - 07:03 am:

Adrain,

Thanks so much for the update. I remember reading about the Ford Assembly plant in Wellington that is mentioned with photos in Roger Gardner's book "Ford Ahead - A History of the Colonial Motor Company Limited" pages 36 - 41. When you have a chance please let me know if you find anything else about additional assembly plants in New Zealand. I only have the one documented at the moment and if there were others I would like to make a note of them and where they were located also. There should be a nice photo of the Wellington Ford Assembly plant at the Alexander Turnbull library [ http://www.natlib.govt.nz/services/researchers ] but when I try to select “search” or “photographs” it is not working for me this morning. It should be photo PA1-q-144-057 shown on page 37 of Roger Garner’s book. Perhaps the link has change or they are doing maintenance.

I may need to start a second posting asking for Canadian owners of the 1925-1927 cars to check their firewall just below the hood rod on the engine side. I'm sure there are additional forum readers who have a Canadian car or access to one but they may not be reading this thread.

M for MONTREAL, QUEBEC
T for Toronto, Ontario
V for Vancouver, British Columbia

If we could find cars with the other letters it would indicate Ford of Canada did use the letters at their Canadian assembly branches during the last part of the Model Ts. Or if "W" is on everyone of the cars -- then "W" must mean something other than Winnipeg, Manitoba Ford Branch Assembly plant. And of course some of the other Canadian branches may have stamped their letter on the metal sills holding up the front floor board as the USA production did.

Again thank you for your help.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Saturday, October 31, 2009 - 04:28 pm:

Hap, Charles Sorensen (or Sørensen) was a native dane (as was the later William Knudsen), and Charles is suspected to have had a big finger in the play when the first European assembly plants was planned.
Ford Motor Company A/S was formed June 25 1919 and had a smaller assemblyline in an industral area in nothern part of Copenhagen.
My cars chassis was assembled there in 1921 or early 1922.
In 1924 a new assembly plant was opened in the southern end of the Copenhagen habour:
Copenhagen assembly plant
Paint, clothing and other things was of local origin while the cars came by ship CKD (knocked down)from Detroit. At some point some cars also came from Manchester as it is evident the the 3" lower deep frame chassis from UK was sold in Denmark in 1925.
This plant was active until the 1960's where it was closed. The building served various purposes until around 2000 where it was teared down as a result of developing this part of the habour to new office buildings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Saturday, October 31, 2009 - 09:06 pm:

Michael,

Thanks for the update. I did a search to find out more about your unique Fordor. I remember reading the thread where the picture on your profile is in front of the same building that you have a much earlier photo of the car in front of. But I am not having much success in finding that or other threads where you may have discussed your car. (The link to the timing gear problem was fun but I didn’t figure out how to display the captions in English.)

When you have a chance would you please point me to the thread(s) where you described your car? Were most of the cars which were assembled at the Copenhagen plant fitted with the standard USA body or UK body in the case of the Dropped Chassis? Do you know if there were any identifying markings to indicate they were assembled at Copenhagen? Sven Jakobsson at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/68610.html scroll down 10 posting to his posting which has a photo of a friend’s 1926 touring that he thinks might have been assembled at Copenhagen. I wonder if the tag on the firewall was added in the last 30 years of if it was from back in 1926?

And for a limited time only – until I eat up the left over Halloween candy, anyone sending in a body number or assembly branch plant number or related information will receive one free piece of left over Halloween candy. (Disclaimer – most of the chocolate is already gone / going – limited to USA and Canada due to the high cost of shipping verses value.)

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Saturday, October 31, 2009 - 11:51 pm:

I believe this is it:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/103466.html?1251696303#POST184538


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 12:25 am:

The first assemblyplant in Copenhagen was quite small. I have a picture of it from the era:
FMC 1919 - 1924
Last year I found the spot - now with new living houses (note the building in the background is the same)

As far as I have been able so far to dig up, all Model T bodies was knocked down US bodies, except when Manchester got up in speed it is obvius that some must have made it to Copenhagen. The proof for it being so is the 1930 spare parts catalog, where the special parts for "deep frame" suffixed DF is to be found for 1925.
Copenhagen may have had the tags shown on Svens pictures. I have never noticed it, but I know later in the 30's when the build the small european Fords, model Y & C, the used a tag like this with the model and serial number:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Clarke on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 02:36 am:

Hi Hap; I have serial # F1396 on the firewall of my Canadian T Coupe. It was purchased new in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, Can. Sincerely Gary


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 08:32 am:

Gary,

Thank you so much for letting us know that your 1926 Coupe has the number # F1396 on the firewall. Another puzzle piece! On Dave Sturges’ listing of 1928-1931 Model A Ford Assembly Plants he has “F” listed for Ford Detroit (Rouge). And he only listed letters for the four Canadian Assembly Plants as:

M for MONTREAL, QUEBEC
T for Toronto, Ontario
W for Winnipeg, Manitoba
V for Vancouver, British Columbia

Which leads me to believe that “F” on the firewall of a 1926-27 and perhaps earlier Ford produced in Canada would mean the main Ford of Canada plant at Walkerville (later became part of Windsor). I

But Winnipeg was closer so I wonder why they didn’t ship a “W” marked coupe to Prince Albert instead of one possibly from the main Canadian Ford plant. Some today’s driving distances are shown below.

Winnipeg Canada to Prince Albert – 842 km 9 hours 19 min

Windsor to Prince Albert : Driving directions to Prince Albert, SK, Canada
2,683 km – about 1 day 3 hours

Perhaps in 1926 it was less expensive to ship from Windsor to Prince Albert? I know when the first motor car to cross Canada an early 1926 Model T that was driven across in Sep 1925 it used the rail road tracks with flanged wheels for part of the trip because the roads did not go all the way (or decent roads anyway). But at any rate it is very helpful to know that “W” was not stamped on all the bodies. Now we just need a few more reference points and hopefully it will make more sense.

Again, thank you for your help.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 08:44 am:

I have seen several examples mentioned here where Model T's was driven along the ralway tracks - even through a tunnel.
One must have a damned certain copy of the schedule I must say - and hope for no extra trains being squezzed in......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 10:02 pm:

Gary sent me a photo of his number # F1396 located on the engine side of his 1926 Canadian coupe's firewall just below the radiator rod.



Again if you look and do not find anything -- please let us know that also. If you do not want to post the information -- that is ok -- just click on my name at the beginning of this post and send me a Private Message or the 3rd line down is my e-mail address.

For Canadian cars (trucks also?) it appears the letter and number are on the firewall about an inch below where the radiator rod connects to the firewall. For USA cars (trucks also?) the number has been found on the metal (wood for the Fordor) channels that hold up the front floor boards. Either on one of the side channels or the channel in front of the front seat.

Gary -- thank you so much for taking time to send the photo.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 09:07 am:

I just received an e-mail from another owner of a 1926 Canadian Coupe. On his firewall he has F5840 just under the radiator support rod. He was not able to share where the car was originally sold but it still shows that the letter "F" was used on some of the Canadian cars. My “theory” (guess) is that the main Ford Canada Plant used the letter “F.” I’m hoping we can find some additional information to confirm or correct that theory.

If any other Canadian owners or folks that know of a Canadian 1925-1927 car could check that area, it would be appreciated.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Stinson on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 05:34 pm:

I have A 5863 stamped on the firewall of my 1926 Ford model T Roadster pick-up(Cut-off touring).This car was built in Canada in May 1926.The car was Canadian built for export to Austrilia so it is RHD (Right Hand Drive).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ernie Stepney on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 01:20 am:

I emailed Hap with the info for our 26 touring. Strange thing is if V is for Vancouver the car now lives less than 2 miles from where it was born. The car was brought to Vancouver from Saskatchewan 25 years ago.

Ernie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 09:46 am:

For Thomas,

1. Thank you so much for your input. An "A" on the firewall. Something new to track down. A couple of questions:

2. Is your 1926 touring (cut off) a Canadian or an Australian bodied car? Both used the Canadian chassis parts but the Australian assembled cars used an Australian body that used the Canadian touring/roadster body sheet metal but had local body builders in Australia tack those panels onto a wooden structural frame just like the earlier 1915-1925 USA and Canadian roadsters and touring bodies. But the Canadian (also USA) 1926-27 touring and roadster bodies had wood only for the upholstery purposes -- none of it was structural any more. Do you know which you have? See the following link http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/68831.html for an explanation with pictures of the additional wood the Australian bodied 1926-27 cars had:

3. Note looking for information I ran across where someone (I don’t remember who at the moment) sent me the picture below of an Australian cowl with the “A” number. Is this similar to what yours looks like also? I would suspect (guess) that your car parts were manufactured in Canada, exported to Australia and assembled there with a body produced by Australian workers using the Canadian body panels over their own wooden skeleton/frame. I like this part of the research when the “puzzle pieces from a few years ago” appear to fit with the “puzzle pieces” we just received. If a few more folks with known Australian 1926-27 cars (also the 1925s that were produced at the Geelong Ford Plant in Australia please check to see if they only have an “A” with a number and not some other letter or a blank -- that could help confirm that “A” stands for Australia – at least in this case.



For Ernie,

1. Thank you for letting us know your car has a “V.” Saskatchewan is about 1682 km from Vancouver by car today. I’m not sure what it was by rail etc. back then. But I believe there is a good chance your car was assembled in Van Cover. If you can check with some of the other 1926-27 cars there – especially if there is one that is known to have been manufactured in Vancouver it could help confirm or correct our assumptions.

2. I’m sorry – but I didn’t find the e-mail – would you please resend it? My spam filter or even Me may have misplaced it.

3. So much more still for all of us to understand. Thank you all for looking and letting us know what you found or didn’t find.

Respectfully,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring car cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 11:02 am:

Hap,
you have lighten some curioucity with me. I begin wonder what they might have done in Copenhagen.
The initial assembly plant was pretty provisoric so their routines may have been the same.
From 1924 though, the assembly plant was clearly designed by Ford in Dearborn and build after american norms. Ford assembly plant was the only building I know of with a big watertank above the roof for the sprinklers.
What exactly did knocked down meaned? Was it that all the sheets came pressed and bended from Dearborn (and Manchester) and then local wood pieces was made and the bodies build here - or did Ford also pay expensive freight rates for getting pieces of wood sailed across the Atlantic?
And did they at some point marked the bodies as we now know they did in the US and Canada?
If Neil Tuckett of UK is reading here - could you eventual enlighten us if your research have revealed anything about this regarding Manchester and Dagenham?
(And this gives me an opportunity to post a new picture of the first assembly plant in Copenhagen :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan Gingles on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 10:46 am:

I just checked my '26 Touring firewall. It has W3311 stamped on it. If the W is indeed for Winnipeg, then the car is only 110 miles from where it was assembled.
http://www.northwestcoin.ca/7693.JPG


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 09:40 pm:

Alan,

Thank you so much for checking and sharing. I would give it better than 80% that the “W” is for Winnipeg as that was what was used for the 1928-1931 Model A Ford production. I’ll try to do some additional research to bring that confidence level higher. Alan’s “W” on the firewall is shown below:

Alan

If anyone has a known 1926-27 Canadian Model T Ford that they know where it was produced that could help confirm the Model T Branch plant markings. Here in Sumter, SC we have one 1928-1931 (I forget the year) Model A Tudor Sedan that the original owner had a friend drive him up to the Charlotte NC Ford Plant. He was allowed to watch his Tudor roll off the assembly line so we know where that car was produced. Or if a car was in the same town all its life – then it probably came from the assembly plant nearest there.

Again thank you so much for your help.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan Gingles on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 11:15 pm:

My pleasure, Hap!
One question about the 4-digit number after the "W". Would that be the body serial number for that particular plant, with each body having a unique number?
Thanks!

Alan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 07:06 am:

For Alan -- That is an excellent question. Those often times lead to additional research and discoveries. Currently I don’t know what the numbers actually are. My theory is they are for production from the given assembly plant. And that regardless of what type of body was on the chassis or even if it was a T or a TT that it would get the next higher number as it rolled down the assembly line. But I will need to check additional numbers and hopefully contact the Model A Folks to ask what they have discovered about the 1928-1931 numbers. Of course if we find multiple numbers that are the same then that theory will need to be revised etc. I’ll keep checking and post back any additional information.

For Dennis Hocking – thank you so much for e-mailing me that your 1927 Canadian Tudor has the number T 11343 stamped on its firewall. If you find out more about the history of the car please let me know. The “T” should indicate that it was assembled in Toronto, Ontario. You purchased it in Montreal, Quebec. That would mean one or more of the previous owners helped move the car towards Montreal, or that for some reason a Toronto assembled car was sold near Montreal to begin with and if that is the case – we would wonder why, this lettering on the firewall for the assembly plants is off, or some other reason. I still enjoy this sort of thing much more than the crossword puzzles. And like the crossword puzzles as we add more information it helps give us clues for the missing information.

And if anyone has information and is having troubles posting it or a picture etc. please click on my name at the beginning of any of my postings and it brings up my profile, my e-mail address is the third line down, and send me an e-mail. Please put “Model T” or something like that so I know it is not spam.

Thanks to everyone for your help. And don’t go out in the cold to gather the information – but please take a look when you have a chance and let me know what you do or do not find.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Keefer on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 05:52 pm:

FWIW,
The Fred Jones Ford bldg in OKC was used to assemble the T's.

It still stands and was used by Fred Jones as a warewhouse until a few years ago. It is in great condition. The current plans may make it an OU law school bldg. The Jones family want the bldg to serve as public bldg. They have been approached to sell for condos, etc.
Lets hope it will survive as a Ford memento.

Noel


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