I tried the electrolysis deal for de-rusting parts several years ago, back when I first heard about it. I could not find washing soda, but the instructions I had at the time said you could use baking soda if you couldn't find washing soda, so I did. They also said to use stainless steel for the anode, so I did, although I have seen instructions since then that say specifically to NOT use stainless steel. At any rate, I gave it a shot, but was less than impressed. The instructions said you could remove the black residue with a wire brush, so I did. My thoughts, at the time, were "I can remove rust with a wire brush on a grinder. If I still have to wire brush this black crap off of my part, I may as well just wire brush the dang rust." So I did, for the next 10 years.

But I kept seeing folks sing its praises. I had to wonder what was going on. Seems like every time the subject came up, there were dozens of folks that absolutely LOVED electrolysis. So I decided to give it another whirl. I used these instructions that someone posted a few days ago.

http://www.wag-society.org/Electrolysis/rust_redct_elect_setup.php

I used a five gallon bucket, a coffee can for an anode, sodium CARBONATE this time, and my only battery charger, a 25 year old 10 amp Monkey Wards special. I put a nasty, rusty, greasy Model A water pump in there and left it for about 24 hours reading about 6 amps. A quick rinse in warm water and blown dry with an air hose and it is practically ready for paint. I have another one in there now.

Questions:

1) Why did I have such better results this time? Sodium CARBONATE rather than sodium BIcarbonate? A coffee can rather than stainless steel (Although THESE instructions said SS was preferred)? Was I overestimating the trouble of removing the black crap the first time around? Maybe it would have come of with warm water that time too?

2) Why does it have to be done in a non conductive container? What would be wrong with using a steel 55 gallon drum and hang your parts from a piece of PVC pipe and let the drum be it's own anode? Would the process eventually eat a hole in the drum or something?

3) What are your thoughts on the stainless anode? It is confusing to me that some say to use SS and other specifically say to NOT use it.

1. Sodium carbonate is far more alkaline than sodium bicarbonate.

2. Two reasons, I think. A. Yes, the alkaline solution would eventually eat a hole in the container, and B. You'll have better control of preventing the part to be cleaned from coming in contact (shorting out) with the anode if the anode is a separate piece.

3. Guessing here that because stainless steel is so full of chromium, that some may fear the chromium being leached out and getting in the waste solution.

You get more electrcial transfer with washing soda. Stainless rod does not deteriorate away as fast as normal steel. Non conductive is because you want them electrically insulated but as close as possible without touching.

Hal I use a plastic barrel with a stainless steel liner. Iron or steel can be used for the anode, but it doesn't last very long. Stainless does not get a buildup on it as most of the crud falls to the bottom. PH balance as used in swiming pools works also.

Hal,

I have been screwing with the same thing. My friend Bob Frink has quit Ts and gave me his crab tote 48x48x 24 deep with a lid. Stuck some real dirty axle housings in and tried them with a 10 amp battery charger---kind of slow for me and does not work well for grease. This was using scrap iron. Changed to a stainless chimney cap and a garage quality charger much more action and the cap did not collect crap like the steel scrap. I wont tell you what I did next but took the amps way higher, lots of action.
Decided from now on the grease will be removed first then the tank will be used for rust. I will collect junk stainless pans at G sales so they can be hung around the tote without touching a part, did that a few times and blew the reset on the charger.

Don't do it:

Why you should not use stainless steel electrodes for electrolysis
Many people using the electrolysis method for rust reduction swear by stainless steel, stating (incorrectly) that it's not consumed, stays clean and seems safe.
Stainless steel is indeed consumed when used in the electrolysis process, although slowly. The main problem with using it is the hazardous waste it produces. Stainless steel contains chromium. The electrodes, and thus the chromium is consumed, and you end up with poisonous chromates in your electrolyte. Dumping these on the ground or down the drain is illegal. The compounds can cause severe skin problems and ultimately, cancer. Hexavalent chromate is poisonous. These compounds are not excused from hazardous waste regulations where household wastes are.
These compounds are bad enough that government regulations mandate "elimination of hexavalent chromate by 2007 for corrosion protection."

Does your electrolyte turn yellow? That's a sign of chromates.

If you have been using stainless steel for the anodes (positive electrodes), wear rubber gloves when working with or near the liquids. If you need to dispose of it, allow it to evaporate into powders and dispose of the powders in sealed containers during your local "hazardous waste clean-up days".

Best bet - don't use stainless steel no matter how tempting it is.

Check out this link. http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp

Another question:

I understand that hydrogen gas is what is being released and that is why they say not to do this indoors. However, would you ever really get a concentration high enough to cause a problem? Granted, don't put the outfit in a small closet with gas water heater, but my shop has a 4' x 24' opening into the loft and a full length ridge vent at the peak of the roof. Wouldn't the hydrogen go immediately to the ceiling, find the huge hole into the loft and immediately go out the ridge vent? Somehow I doubt it will ever reach the LEL (Lower explosive limit) and be dangerous. Does anyone do this inside their shop?

Brown's gas is being released - a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen.

Brown's gas sounds like something that happens after too many beers and beans! :0 Sorry Seth just could not resist!
We were talking about this today, how much gas would need to be produced to blow the doors off the shop if not vented. I would stick with using re-bar and having it setup out side.

I use rebar and it is always outside. I sometimes am tempted to bring it inside, but it would be just my luck.

I do it inside with ventilation...used a tester about 4' above the tank at full 30 amps and got a reading. Anything more than 4' away from the tank was fine. With ventilation there is little to worry about. If you could make enough hydrogen like this to blow the roof off, we'd be running it in our cars by now. Yeah there are naysayers but I'm tired of listening to the babble of most that chime in to be heard. Some people listen to everything the self-proclaimed experts say and still think butter will kill you.

You have plenty of ventilation Hal, or I should say if I had what you describe I wouldn't think twice about it. Stan is correct in every word, I agree 100%. SS isn't the way to go, and re-bar is a waste of time, use thin sheetmetal like the can you used and had the better results. The ones who have results that are just "ok" are the ones using re-bar and it just doesn't conduct enough. Tin cans work good and retain the conductivity because the oxidized metal is constantly shedding and exposing conductive metal. Some think that it is a problem when their anodes get eaten up, but that is the point! The more it is oxidized, the more rust will be removed from the cathode (the part you are cleaning)

Also, someone mentioned that it doesn't do good on grease. If anyone told you it would clean grease, they lied! This ain't a bath, it's de-rusting and a totally different animal. Grease on the metal works as an insulator and if you don't wash the parts first you won't have good results. Hot soapy water bath first, then electrloysis. If you want an area to be left alone by the current, smear grease on it.

Baking soda is a poor eletrolyte and a waste of time. Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) will deteriorate into sodium carbonate when baked at 175 degrees for a period that I cannot recall off the top of my head. I can get my notes at my shop and relay that info if necessary, but just buy the pool chemical or washing soda and you don't have to worry about that anyway. Save the baking soda for media blasting (and NO you don't have to buy different blasting equipment like the salesmen try to trick you into thinking...and some believe that too).

No disrespect meant to anyone (other than the spreaders of urban legends), but I've had phenomenal results with this. There is a way to do it and get good results and there is a way to waste a lot of time and go whining about why it didn't work and turning folks off to a good way to clean parts.

I should point out that I copied that from a website about old tractors. I didn't write that warning although I believe it. I have a tank for electrolysis and use a 36 volt golf cart battery charger for power. It works great.

Thanks Ray. I hesitated to write that question. I figured I would be crucified by by some safety nut that felt ANY amount of hydrogen would be dangerous. I knew that it would take an accumulation to be dangerous.

I'm still wondering about using a metal container for the anode. I really don't see why it wouldn't work, assuming the inside was bare metal. Use a piece of wood or platic pipe accross the top of the container to hang your part from. That will take care of the electrical insulation problem. I just don't have a feel for how long it would last. What's the worst thing that could happen? Eat a hole in it and all your electrolyte run out? If you are outdoors, that would be OK, assuming a small enough quantity (5 gallons rather than 55 gallons). The advantage I am theorizing is that you have a large surface area and your part is completely surrounded. If the process is line of sight, having the part completely surrounded sounds like the way to go.

An alternative might be a piece of pipe slightly smaller than your container. Only problem is, most pipe like I'm thinking of is galvanized. Would zinc hurt the process, or the environment, or pose a safety hazard?

Thanks Ray, Stan

Its seems every tool is a learning process. Question-- I am currently setting parts to be cleaned on the bottom of the tank, would it be a better idea to use a non conductive grate to hold the part slightly above the bottom? If I were to use sheet metal would it be better for several movable scraps used around the tank? Last, The formula mentioned for washing soda is about a table spoon to a gallon, enough?

Hal, everything you say is correct. It is line of sight. The metal container will just fine, but you will create pin holes.

Hi All

The Anode (scrap rebar or tin etc) is sacrificed in the process,
so while a metal container will work for a while, using a plastic
container saves worrying about if or when your metal pail is
going to spring a leak. Perhaps you could cut the bottom out
of a metal pail and use it for the anode in a bigger plastic pail.
I have had good luck with a rebar grid doing smaller items in
a plastic pail using a wood support for the chain to support the
part. The depth is easily adjustable with a bolt thru the chain link
and the chain is kept clean by the process. If one feels the need
to occasionally clean the rebar grid, just hang a piece of scrap
from the support board and reverse the power leads.



Regards
Art

Hi Art. Can you post details concerning the power supply you're using?

Hi Gary

It’s an Astron 12 volt 15 amp power supply that I
picked up for $10 at an auction. No meter, but a
friend who is a ham radio operator claims they are
very good quality. Seems to work well.
I have also used battery chargers and even a battery
with good results,

Regards
Art

Good discussion, guys! Thanks to everyone. Let me bring up my last question again, though.

What do you think about using galvanized steel for an anode? Will the zinc hurt anything? Give off any noxious fumes? Create any hazardous waste?

What I am thinking of doing is getting a piece of duct work about 10" in diameter and placing it inside my 5 gallon bucket for an anode.

I think the galvanize would act as a insolator.
A peice of 18 gauge sheet metal worked real well for me cleaning parts from a model 92 maytag a while back.

Thank you, Art!

I know where I can pick up an old Astron that's not being used.... and the price is right!! Yup, they are very good power supplies. How long do you normally have to run the unit for 'average' rust? I'm just looking for a ball park on what to expect, I know there are variables....

Don't use zinc. The process is a conversion of iron oxide to iron ferrite and as such, requires iron for the anode(s). This is why the end result leaves a black smut on the part. It's nearly pure iron ferrite. The zinc would just interrupt the process until the zinc is burned off. It could also make for a lousy zinc plating on your part. Also important for better than good results is use distilled or rain water to make your mix. City and/or well water contains minerals and most likely chlorine. Chlorine can be changed to Bromine with the process and neither is good for you or the steel/iron part.

Gary - There's way too many variable to fix a time. The best thing to do is leave it over night. What's good about this process is you can't go too long. Once the oxide conversion is complete, no further ion exchange takes place--It's self limiting.

Hi Gary

The first item or two you tend to check every couple of hours,
but the time will depend on a few variables. Size and complexity
of the item, heavy or lightly rusted, electrolyte strength and amp
draw etc. A small antique vice that nothing would move on took
2 days to get freed up internally, a lightly rusted wrench an hour.
I just leave the items I’m in no hurry for sit for a day or two.

Regards
Art

When I first set mine up I did a few small pieces to see how it worked and then did my Pasco wire wheels. They had been painted with Imron with hardener in the 70's and I wanted the paint off them. It was almost impossible to sand blast off and I was afraid I was going to stretch the spokes. I put one in the electrolysis tank and within an hour had paint coming off. I took it out several times and hosed the loose paint off but it only took a couple days to do all five of them. No ruined spokes and no standing there sandblasting for two days. I did rinse them off well and left them in the sun to dry after blowing them off with the air hose. Then I lightly bead blasted them in the cabinet and sprayed them with Gibbs. They have been in my storage rack for about 5 years waiting for me to get my speedster done.

I use Arm and Hammer baking soda, a box in 100 gallon tank, a couple cups of salt and whatever I have for iron. I fooled around with rebar and it works fine but I have to buy it so I just hung some scrap iron in there and it works great. My tank froze up last fall and ruined it. Gotta get a new one this year. I've also built a couple boxes and lined them with plastic. Works fine. One thing you have to watch is hooking it up right. I have one box set up for driveshafts. I ruined a driveshaft housing last summer, hooked the power up wrong and went to breakfast. Amazing how bad it was by the time I got home and checked it. The piece of angle iron I had in there for the sacrificial piece sure was nice, tho.

This may interest you guys also. I was talking with a motorcycle retorer who had a 1918 Harley in his shop. The owner didn't want it restored. It was a barn fresh original that looked great and that was the way the owner wanted it to stay (good idea).

The restorer had to fabricate a small item that was missing and wanted to make it look like the rest of the bike. So he performed "reverse" electrolysis using a piece of rusty steel to transfer the necessary patina to the newly fabricated part. He showed me the part and it DID look as old as the Harley.

Thanks Ken, Art and Stan!

I like the idea of kicking it off and letting it sit overnight without worry... nice and convenient! I've got some rebar scraps hanging around and a couple of those square plastic buckets; I think I'll put one of these together in the next week or two and try it out. I know I can find plenty of rusted parts to play with!! I didn't know it would help with paint removal, that's good to know.

Warren, doing the reverse will also give copper a patina in a few minutes that takes years to get any other way!

Ken, I agree that treated "city" water is probably not a good idea, but well or even pond water is fine. Distilled water is for batteries where you do NOT want conductivity. With electrolysis, minerals in the water only make it more conductive which, as you know, is what we want in the water.

If you prefer to use heavy steel and iron pieces, such as re-bar, you are defeating the purpose and the process will take much longer than it has to. I know some are dead set on it, but I'm just sharing from experience and not meaning to offend anyone. Large anodes will coat over with oxidation and you can watch the amp draw drop in just a few minutes. There is little or no cleaning going on when the amp draw gets low, and you have to take re-bar out and clean it every couple hours if you want real results. You have to understand that trying to save your anode is futile...it is the sacrificial lamb in the process. Using thin bare steel sheet will do much better as it sheds the oxidation during the process and provides good continuity (without the necessity and mess of trying to clean the anode) until the end of the cycle. I have found that a single quart can will do more in 24 hours than six 24" pieces of re-bar can do in 48 hours (with the re-bar needing to be cleaned every 2-4 hours).

Yep, it works on paint too. The high alkalinity softens the paint and the electrolysis pushes it loose by forming hydrogen bubbles underneath it. Sort of like the freeze/thaw process breaks apart concrete. I've found that scratching paint with a course sanding disc will make it come off much faster since exposing a bit of metal here and there lets the bubbles start forming.

Again, not trying to argue or make anyone mad, only trying to share what I have learned.

By the way...to answer your qustion Paul; It seems to work better with the part suspended with wire (I use the wire that is supplying current), but I suppose if you sat the part on something it would be fine. The only drawback I can think of would be blocking your line of sight to the anodes and the part that is on the bottom won't get cleaned.

Thanks Ray. Ive got some old coffee cans, I can experiment.

Thanks Ray, Learning line of sight is important. My tank nets 36X45X24. Used an old coil of 1/4 copper tubing and ran it around the inside top of the tank, folded 8" flashing strips over the copper to the bottom of the tank so any one can be removed for any reason 8 total. Using 30 amps there is lots of action but still learning. Have a fair amount of space to set parts, and the tank has a lid to keep the critters out. Now if I could pick up a steam cleaner with good coils for cheap!

I am wondering if anyone has used this for body panels? Something like a kids swimming pool to hold the solution then rotating the body so each rusted panel is immersed for rust removal. I have an original speedster body cowl and seat all rivited together. Making a tank to hold it would be a challenge.
thanks
Bill

To k.mowle: I have a friend in Memphis in the plastic business who made a large tank for another friend. Friend #2 uses it for large items like doors, etc. He also drops an electrode inside the door where the window hides and can remove rust on the inside.Works just like the smaller containers. Check around---some companies have these large plastic tanks they might let you have.

I usually take my parts straight from the bath, and hit it with a small electric pressure washer, takes off the black coating really easily, as long as you don't let it dry. also, I have read that you can use a carbon anode, and it will not pick up any crud.

Oh, and I use a stock tank for big projects.

Bill Mowle, building a tank with 2x4s and plywood isn't hard to do. I saw one built for a roadster body, lined with a cheap blue tarp (to prevent splinters from being exposed) then with a sheet of clear plastic. He used a log chain and boomers around it to keep the weight of the water from breaking the box. Lay the center of the plastic in the middle and allow the water to push it to the sides. If you put the plastic in the box and over the sides it will stretch and tear, so the water needs to seat it against the sides as it rises. You just have to be careful and not bump the sides and punch a hole in the plastic. Another alternative, if you have access to the ground, is dig a hole and use the removed dirt to form a levee around it (so the hole don't have to be near as deep) and line it with plastic. Makes a nice temporary tank. Saw pictures of one done like that, fella rolled a complete farm wagon into it and de-rusted it. Sounds like a nice way to start a restoration...put the whole car in there and do a preliminary de-rusting!

Bill Schaller, I've heard many comments about the carbon rods and all were positive. I've never had easy access to any so I can't say, but I'd like to try it! I've collected a lot of data and information and would like to write a booklet with pictures of some of the tank configurations and other useful tips, but the carbon rods will have to be experimented with before I do that.