how do i figure a value for this one? was built special for edsel by henry. 6 cyl. boat. was in ford museum from 1930's to 1982. only one ever made. was a racer driven by frank kulik ? whoever that is.
Is it just me or does that tailight not look out of place?I dont understand everything I see about that car.
pix of papers. nice car for jay leno ??
Man I really like the lines at the back. If you can get more pictures let us know, I would love to have a bit of a picture archive on this one just incase shaping steel is in my future...
heres a picture she gave me. came from the museum in 30 40's.it was lt. yellow with black trim, gray top.dave repainted it black. as he agreed with henry..''you can paint it any color,as long as its black''
From Wiki:
"Ford maintained an interest in auto racing from 1901 to 1913 and began his involvement in the sport as both a builder and a driver, later turning the wheel over to hired drivers. He entered stripped-down Model Ts in races, finishing first (although later disqualified) in an "ocean-to-ocean" (across the United States) race in 1909, and setting a one-mile (1.6 km) oval speed record at Detroit Fairgrounds in 1911 with driver Frank Kulick. In 1913, Ford attempted to enter a reworked Model T in the Indianapolis 500 but was told rules required the addition of another 1,000 pounds (450 kg) to the car before it could qualify. Ford dropped out of the race and soon thereafter dropped out of racing permanently, citing dissatisfaction with the sport's rules, demands on his time by the booming production of the Model Ts, and his low opinion of racing as a worthwhile activity."
Sorry, I don't see anything on that car other than the headlights that could be 1913 or earlier.
rdr
on another piece of paper from long island auto museum research states...this is a very special machine created for edsel ford. the radiator is of the early brass type, although nickel plated and much higher than standard ones. engine is a 6 cyl. one of the model T type, with planetary transmission.there are c.m. hall gas/electric head lamps and english lucas oil side lamps. it is estimated the car was constructed in the very early 20's. there is no proper yardstick for appraising a car of this type as it is a ford family heirloom. dated february 24,1978
Wow...what an intersting find and an interesting imponderable for the back porch crowd to consider!
Think I would tend to agree with Ralph based on what has been revealed. Looks like a collage of many years, a nicely styled body more in the vein of after WW1. Certainly certain of the apparent Ford parts are from after this era!
Not to be discouraged though...not trying to rain on a parade...may be a hidden diamond. What really has my mind in a tizzy is the mention of a 6-cylinder. That is quite far from being considered in the realm based on conventional wisdom history of Henry attitude, and for a moment thought it perhaps came out of the Lincoln stable after 17, but to the best of my knowledge [and could be wrong] recollection, early Lincolns were all 8's and 12's?
Further pictures would help the comments Dave. I see you are new to this forum and one thing to learn quickly, one thing this group is great at is the 'in the details'. Motor pix, tranny pix, closer of the rear as it looks almost close but not quite in the pic supplied. Many are capable of commenting even if it is not Ford and tell you exactly what is is from!
We're a bunch of back porch guys, the teasers on the Henry Ford memo could be interesting if further revealed, but you have to decide what to share.
If there is a firm provenance on the vehicle, then it will be above this group for sure, but we sure can offer comments...and you should contact one of the big auction appraisers, paying their appraisal fee if you must.
OK, you have my curiosity peaked...now I'm hungry!
David, you posted while I was typing....
More, more..........
"engine is a 6 cyl. one of the model T type, with planetary transmission."
That is indeed mysterious, as Ford reportedly never built another six in Henry's lifetime after the Model K he disliked so much.
The body is great, but the top is a real afterthought, which Edsel would likely have disliked.
rdr
last two pics i have on my phone.
this paper im holding in pic says...accession sheet number 00.240.2 negative number a-2672 from the henry ford museum and greenfield village. date and period c.1912ford motor company. a 2 passenger ford model T with special body and special built 6 cylinder motor. pale yellow body with black trim. black metal fendersand gear. wire wheels. tires 32x4. black leather divided seat. windshield. leather covers between bodyand fenders and running boards. cm hall lamp co. headlights. detroit mi.usa. model 186 in diamond. side lamps marked lucas/ king of the road/jos.lucas ltd. b'ham [england] tail lamp marked ford. wheelbase 108'' tread 58''
x
Somewhere in my stash of old pictures, I have a couple of shots of a 6 cylinder 'T' engine that was at the Henry Ford Museum. My folks took me there in '64 and I took several pictures. The 6 cylinder engine was mounted on a stand and as I recall, looked just like an extended 4 cylinder T engine. It was painted a kind of copper color as I recall and had some nickel plated parts and bolts. The sign with it said it was an experimental engine. Anybody else see it or know if it is still there? Dave
Here's a 6 cylinder OHV T engine at Speedy Bill Smith's Museum.
I apologize for the thread drift.
Seth
could the six cylinder be a model K engine?
Not drift, Seth; is that one Ford built?
Looking at the hood shape in the front-on pic makes me wonder if it was designed for a rounded top radiator, rather than the coffin top it has.
Ralph,
Google "Speedy Bill Smith's Museum". There isn't much info on it, but apparently there is some bad info - it says the bore is 3.75", stroke is 4.00" and displacement is 177 cubic inches. Not true since it's a six.
Isn't the 108" wheel base mentioned above off for a Model T frame? I thought it was 100"?
Extended frame for the extra 2 cylinders?
Rob,
Nothing like a K. I've seen the 6 at Bill Smith's museum in Lincoln, and it is obviously based on a T block/transmission (shown above in Seth's photo).
another Rob
Packard build a nice six could be that...
Then again we are all just guessing unless they can send you a picture of the engine...
There is a period photo of Edsel standing next to a car very similar to the one shown. I think the car is about 1913 era, when Edsel was a teenager. Quite a significant car if it is indeed the original item.
According to Les Henry there were at least two 6 cly engines built based on the the Model T. Henry built them in the 20,s trying to save the Model T will Edsel was working on the Model A. One of them was at Hershey in the 70's maybe early 80's. I think Cecil Church bought it but later sold it at his auction. At that time the other one was still in the Dearborn Museum.
There were two experimental engines in the Ford museum prior to the big auction. One had two addition cylinders at standard Model T Ford size, while the other had 6 tiny cylinders with the engine at standard Model T engine length. Cecil Church also purchased one of the experimental Fordsons at the big auction, did some restoration and later sold it for around $4000.
It was listed on the Ford auction list as "Old Fordson". My memory of a conversation with Cecil.
In Tin Lizzie by Stern there are two pictures of custom built cars for Edsel and the floor looks right for the Museum but why has it been hidden so long??Bud.
Here is a link to a Hemming’s “Auto Blog” with a photo of one
of Edsel’s early "T" speedsters.
Click on each small page twice to fully expand them for viewing.
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2008/02/24/sia-flashback-edsel-fords-hot-rods/
This ones a little O/T but very nice.
I’m no longer sure where I found this photo,
but had it filed as “Edsel_ Early 30s Speedster”
going to get more pix. what should i get???
Engine for one, sides front and firewall, rear axle, front axle (would like o see how it was dropped). interior of trunk (would like to see the skeletal structure). If you can do high resolution pictures even better. I am sure there are a lot of T folks that would like to archive this car for a future build! Lastly a 360 of the body.
Thanks for doing this for us!
Detail shots of the engine, both sides. We want to see if this is two "T" engines put together, or an entirely new design. The trans & rear axle assemblies too. Crawl under it if you can. Pics of the front cowl may answer a few questions too.
Hal-Scott built a few 6 cylinder T engines but the project was dropped about the time the A came out.
I have seen pictures some place of the Hal Scott 6 engine in a T. Except for the two extra cylinders it looked like a T engine but I don't think it had the same bore size.
I first visited the "Ford Museum" in 1956. Less Henry gave me a personal tour of the auto collection. There was a 6 cylinder "Model T" there at that time that was listed a being built for Edsel Ford. As I remember, that date listed for the racer was 1912. I believe it was still there in 1976 when I again toured the collection.
that is true. this is that car. the car has things that some say didnt exist in that year. plans were in the works i guess. you have any pix from those tours??
When my Dad owned a service station I could get a free grease jobs and oil changes for my car any time I wanted. In the case of Edsel Ford, his Dad’s Highland Park shop was a lot more extensive than my Dad’s service station. And he had access to all sorts of help. On page 112 of Philip Van Doren Stern’s “Tin Lizzie” [The first T book I ever read and one I really still love – lots of fun information – great photos – and of course a lot of additional information has been discovered since 1955. It is out of print but available from book sellers and some libraries (such as Bossier City, LA – and you could request it by interlibrary loan from your library – for free in most cases.)] The author of "Tin Lizzie" titles page 112: “Some of Edsel’s Special Model T’s” and the caption reads: “Henry Ford’s son and heir, Edsel Ford, had many cars rebuilt or altered to suit his own personal taste. He is shown here in three different versions of sports or racing cars made from Model T Ford chassis.” Below are those three photos.
Any of those three or may not be related to the current car that is being discussed. Note that on those three pictures the radiators appear to the standard or close to the standard width and close to the standard top tank size (yes – super V sticks out much further but it appears to take a standard Model T hood. But that the car being reviewed appears to have slimmer radiator for one reason or another (perhaps the camera angle? Or perhaps it really is a narrow radiator.) Note also the fender lines of the last photo compared to car being discussed. Also that both of them have similar looking wire wheels. Both have the front axle further forward – i.e. regular frame mount is behind the front spring rather than the front spring being held by the motor mount and in the normal front frame channel. Note also how both picture number 3 above and the car in question have the radiator end approximately where the cross bar reinforcement normally goes. I.e. the nice brass bottom trim of the radiator is about level with the top of the frame rather than a two to three inches below the top of the frame. Below is a photo of the car being discussed for comparison.
Note also how the rear fender of Car # 3 appears to possibly have a reverse curve back towards the front of the car. That could be similar to the rear fenders of the car being considered. Also note how Car # 2 has front and rear fenders that appear to be very similar in shape. Almost like they used the same basic fender on the right front and left rear and left front and right rear. And if you look at the car in question you will see that it also has the similar right front and left rear along with left front and right rear shape. Different from Car #2 -- but Edsel may have liked that approach or perhaps it was easier to fabricate? And the hub caps on the wire wheels appear similar – but so would many other wire wheel hub caps look similar.
Note also the hood on Car # 3 appears longer than normal to me. It could be an optical illusion or perhaps a torpedo hood. No mention of the type of engine is made in Stern’s “Tin Lizzie.” Also, while many photos in the book do show the 1950s wood style floor underneath the cars (page 37, 38, 39, 41, 44 and probably a few others) I did not see that wood style museum floor under Edsel’s speedsters. I could have missed them or perhaps those photos are in anther book?
Yes there are some later parts – i.e. the dash switch, dash switch plate, amp meter, 1916 or later rear axle (I could not see the filler plug location – but he center section appears 1915 or later and it looked like it has ribs on the lower part of the rear wheel backing plate), 1919 or later front spring perches with the associated wishbone under the axle, the 1926-27 accessory stop and tail light (see: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/tl16.htm )
But it was not unusual for Henry Ford to update his personal cars. For example Henry’s personal coupe is in the garage at Fair Lane in Dearborn, Michigan. At http://www.henryfordestate.org/mfmodelt.htm they discuss his personal Model T Coupe and note that “it was a rolling test bed for new parts, including a later model nickel-plated radiator [shell]. You can also see the wire wheels that have been fitted to the car. On page page 11 of the Mar-Apr 1970 another picture of that coupe is shown (called a 1919 in that article). You can also tell that in addition to the wire wheels it was fitted with the 1924 style front fenders with the lip. So I would think if Edsel wanted to upgrade the body or chassis or to upgrade both on one of his cars – he could easily do so. And of course his Dad could give him an entirely different car built to his desires just as easily.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.
You've hit it, Hap. It looks to me like #3 with a body added.
That's a real collectible.
Assuming the running boards are the same, the prospective buyer could look under the driver's side running board for holes to attach the tool box in Hap's picture #3. Great sluthing, my Hap's off to you!
went to her house, took these pix tonight.hope this tells all you ford peoples more info. WONT LET ME PUT PIX. SAYS.. One or more of the images or attachments you uploaded exceeded the maximum allowable upload size (which is 200 kilobytes). These images or attachments have been removed from your post. If you would like to include images or attachments, upload new files after you make sure that the size is not greater than 200 kilobytes. WHAT DO I DO????
david....email to yourself first....when it asks to compact, say yes, then post those as received.
usually that is enough.
If not go to google, download something called pixresizer pretty much self explains once loaded. you need to actually be at about 190k or so in order to not bump the limit.
or, email to me, one per email if they are big, and I'll size and post for you.
I would look here for a compatable operating system and then use the available software in windows to resize. Maybe someone else will chime in to help.
http://www.google.com/search?q=resizing+photos+in+windows&rls=com.microsoft:en-u s:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADRA_en
Thanks Hap for posting the 1912 pictures of Edsel in this car and confirming what I said - the car is very likely the real one. Some serious examination needs to be done by a qualified individual.
If it is real it should be extraordinarily valuable to the right person.
trying this one ? please work. yes. well how do you like the engine?
here is Daves picture for under the hood
danged David....looks like you figured it out yourself...good going
and...
its real...for sure. museum 30's to 80's. went to auction 1982. dealer in florida bought it. in 1985 dealer traded this, and a abbott-detroit and a issotta for a 63 merc sl. then car completely taken apart,gone over and painted. many many pix of whole resto. car was real nice anyways as it sat in museum aprox. 50 years. has sat where you see it since.owner passed recently.
AND THE LAST 2 I TOOK.
David,
I myself would probably not have any difficulty with the use of 'evolutionary' parts on such a machine.
To me it went with the territory back then, they didn't want old, they didn't know what old was! Henry's cars were constantly updated rather than just taking out a new one, and I would imagine same would hold true for Edsel. Imagine the thrill, "Hey Mr. Edsel, what say you bring that in and we'll get you one of them new fangled electric tail-lights for it!" Think...same as having the latest cell phone today, even though the old one still works
Now for a purely selfish technical question...that is a 3x3 straight 6, just as is the photo from Seth. No, can't ask you to pull the cover....but would eventually be really curious as to how the crank is hung!
WOW! What a piece of history! Dave
David...
Another thought....I think that paper you are holding says, "Mr. Liebold said,,,' in the middle of the Remarks line,but really can't make it out. Liebold was Henry's personal assistant in the late teens, and then went on to do other big things for the various Ford enterprises! Should it be 'Liebold', he would have 'been there'
Interesting in that we're talking 1912-1913 here with the museum photo of the 6 cyl. engine that Seth posted, and also the 6 cyl. engine in the car, and they both have what Seth likes to refer to as a "dizzy" instead of a timer and 6 coils. Also, speaking of coils, the car photos show a single coil that appears to be mounted on the top of the generator. You can bet that ignition system wasn't Henry's idea!
Actually, the more I look at it, the generator, coil and distributor almost look like one unit. Something makes me think along the lines of Hall-Scott, aircraft equipment maybe,......(???)
The FORD Museum in Dearborn may have information regarding the car. Send them a note. I have a '28 Roadster pickup that was sold at one of the auctions. When I researched the truck the records showed that a Ford plant used it and had it in the plant garage. The factory manager shipped it to the museum in 1954 unsolicited! Good luck
jon
PS: There were some real hard feelings about the auctions. The museum director sold some very valuable goods. I recollect and issue about selling original Edison memoribilia under questionable terms.
jon
george. heres what it says in the remarks.. THIS CAR WAS BUILT FOR EDSEL B. FORD... MR.LIEBOLD SAYS THIS CAR WAS ORIGINALLY A RACER DRIVEN BY FRANK KULIK.
Two sediment bulbs, 1 carb. Does it have a spare fuel tank?
Nice car Dave.
Thank you for showing it to us.
The oilpan appears to be cast aluminum.
Herb - And with a removable access plate under the low, reverse and brake drums,.....(???)
any ideas on how we should market this car?
I would suggest one of the big name auctions, Pebble Beach, Meadowbrook, or even Hershey.
RM Auctions would be the appropriate auctioneer. They have several high end auto auctions a year, including Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, Scottsdale, and Meadowbrook.
Contact them and they will help you.
David,
May never know who Mr. Kulik is...but...Mr. Liebold was Henry's Personal Assitant, later ran the Ford Hospital, and also The Dearborn Independent [Henry's Newspaper] so it just all add's to the package and the credibility.
Auction with RM might do well. I know Jay Leno likes to buy cars with historical value (race history mostly) and he does have a fine collection of the rare and unusual. I have no clue how you could get in contact with him but he might be a buyer.
Just a thought
anybody in cali ?? tell jay to look at this. i can be e-mailed via this site. thanks to all who look at this and seem to like this car. its a cool car. im in to vettes. never really looked at these in a way to appreciate them. i sat in it. you can see and feel the history. pretty neat. theres a abbott-detroit also to be sold.am told it was wyatt erp ? or someones car. still trying to verify its history as this T has taken some time.
I think I might be able to contact someone that knows Jay Leno. Let me try. I will give them your contact number...
Are those canvis splash aprons? That idea could be implemented on a "speedster" built nowadays.
I must say when i first saw the pictures it looked like something put together in the 50's.But now that it is found to be real,wow,what a peice of history.
Get it running and drive it before you turn loose of it.May be your one and only chance.
Corvettes,allthough cool on their own,wouldnt hold a candle to driveing that car.
Hap,could you email me a printable copy of that middle picture of Edsels car with the pointed radiator?I would appreciate it.I would like to put that up on the shop wall.
x
Speaking from the museum field, the auctions were, IMHO, poorly thought out, and too few knowledgeable people were involved in the deaccessioning process. This car is one example that should still be in the museum! I think a number of experimental engines left the museum too. All this stuff tells the story of Ford, when Henry was at the head, and when the company was THE CAR company of the world.
Also, it probably shouldn't have been restored either or the restorer should have kept to the original paint scheme!
But what do I know?
T'
David D.
(Curator for City of Oroville)
true. but. as nice as this car is, a nice wetsand and a couple quarts of light yellow paint is not to much money. and if you want to have original type of quality paintjob on this car, i think.$2000. - $2500. would cover that. compared to the value of the car,thats nothing.
David,The value of that car is proably yet to be determend? Bud.
The obvious questions is: Have you contacted the Henry Ford Museum to see if they are interested in purchasing it???
Is there any proof of it's validity? It could be some body's attempt at a clever copy?? It's value rests in the would be purchaser's hands.
The first step is going to be to document that this is indeed the exact same car. That should not be too difficult with the help of the Henry Ford Museum. The next step is to document the history of the car, particularly with all of the differences between this and the 1912 version in the photograph. Obviously, there are lots of newer parts on the car, and even the headlights do not match the 1912 headlights as shown in that photo. Perhaps the car is the original 1912 car, but was extensively modified in later years and used as a test mule for a possible 6 cylinder engine. That would certainly explain the need for a top.
The last issue is that even it it is the same car, and fully documented, that makes it interesting, but not necessarily highly valuable. It certainly lacks the sophisticated styling that Edsel was known for. For a value, compare this with the 5 millionth Model T from 1921 that sold recently. That car was a Ford Motor Company milestone, and was delivered new to Edsel Ford.
well. lol - lol. based on those issues. ill see if i can get you a carfax.
The Ford Motor Company records at the Bensen Research Center are quite extensive. They may indeed be able to give you a lot of information on it if you care to ask them.
did anybody figure out where this 6 cylinder originated from? and how early it was invented?
The manifold set on whatever it is look's strange if only to me and in this configeration i wonder if it ran/run's?? Could it be something grafted on a T pan?? Who actually ownes this car and how did they get it?? Bud.
read the posts.it tells the story about this car.
David,I've always understood the seller has the obligation to provide authenticity of his product. It's not she said,he said ,but real written proof that they will need. If it is indeed the real thing,it will be well worth it.
I agree with Jack, documented authentication will bring buyers out of the woodwork. And greatly help in assessing the market value of the car.
If it was Edsel Fords car then it will widen the field of people who might want to own it not just to people interested in Ford but to collectors representing other fields of interest.
If a person with automotive historical interest bought it, they might send it to rehab which, in that respect, it is sorely in need of.
That's the facination with this car. What's going to be the outcome?
My main question is whether, as is, it's a high end car or not. I don't think so because of the lack of a body on the original Edsel car, if that's what it is. The body might be worth something in its own right. Is it from the same period? Is it an unknown builder? Probably not the same period and probably an unknown builder. See my point about the value. On the other hand, there are the fenders aprons and running boards. Luckily thats about all you needed to make it what it closest to what Edsel drove. I wonder if its like parting aout a model T and getting more than its worth as a complete car. Could you lose the body and sell it for a higher price. Is that possible here? But I guess the sellor wants to market it "as is" and that is understandable given the situation of the owner.
Usually authentication a slow, painful process, maybe not with this car since it is so unique and as most people say it is from the HFM.
Terrific thread, David, thanks for posting.
David,
I hope you don't think I'm challenging the authenticity of the car by saying you need to document the history. My personal opinion is that it is indeed the car from the Ford Museum and is an interesting car.
I noticed in one of your photos that it shows the rear license plate bracket and there is a small reference number painted on the bracket. I believe that is the same item reference number on the paper work that you have from the Ford Museum to identify the car. The Ford Museum (as do most other museums) applies a reference number to all of their artifacts, and I have seen similar numbers on their other vehicles in the Henry Ford Museum auto collection. I have also seen a references number added to items that I have donated to the Wisconsin State Historical Society over the years, so it is a common museum practice for identifying and taking inventory of collections.
I'm not seeing anything that is too inconsistent with the photo of the car when it was in the museum, and I do think there is a good chance that it started out as the 1912 car and was extensively modified by Ford as a test vehicle. The steering column looks to be the one that was on the 1912 car, for example.
Given the information you have on it, you should directly contact the Benson Ford Research center and see what additional history they may be able to supply.
Once you have done that, you will be in a much better position to assess the value of the car.
Dave
I believe this car has a 6 cylinder engine that was developed while Henry and Clara Ford were on vacation in Europe around 1913.
A prototype touring car was built using the new engine and chassis. The story is that when Henry came back and saw the prototype he took a sledge hammer and started beating the car to pieces as the engineers stood by and suffered silently in shame.
wow. i wonder if that really happened.
Read about it in Tin Lizzie by Stern! Bud.
where can i find the book?
David,Any one of the used book sites on the web.Should cost 10.00 to 15.00 in nice shape. Printed in 1955 Tin Lizzie by Stern.Bud.