Im building a car that I know I will need a water pump. What was the best accessory pump for volume?
I am anti water pump. Why do you need a pump? A good radiator will save a pile of problems, where a pump can cause a pile. I have a few pumps that I'll never use (again).
The best water pump is in a box on the shelf. IMO.
Before I reply please tell me why you "(I) know I(t) will need a water pump"?
I find it a bit ironic that a lot of people here on the forum are so anti water pump, we all admire all the other accessories posted on a daily bases by Jay, and we think that they are very cool, (me included). Iím sure that the majority of those accessories are just as useless, if not more useless than a water pump would be, lots of people say ďHenry did not put a water pump in because it was not necessaryĒ well, he also did not put Chevy Valve, Aluminum Pistons, Rocky Mountain Brakes, Ruckstell Rear End, Warford Transmission, Exterior Oil Lines, Fatman Steering Wheels, Bumpers, Hassler Shock Absorbers, and many other accessories on the cars either.
If Tyrone is asking for help on what would be a good water pump for him to use on his car, I donít see what information he will get out of some one denigrating the use of a pump, I use a water pump on both my cars because to me they work, plain and simple, I also have Rocky Mountains on one of my cars, that car also has blinkers and a distributor, a voltage regulator from fun projects not a cut out, my point is, not everything on that car is as Henry intended it.
Tyrone unfortunately I canít tell you the name of either one of the water pumps I have on my car because I donít know the brand name, I could however take pictures of the two pumps that I have and send them to you if you want to see them, I should tell you that to me they both work just as good, I try to make sure that I keep them lubricated (just like many other parts of my car) and that is all.
Come on here. The man asked a simple question. He didn't want personal opinions as to whether or not water pumps were a good idea.
Tyrone, I don't believe anyone knows the answer to your question because volume has to do with the size and shape of the impeller and the size of the pulley and even the shape of the chamber.
A good guess for maximum volume would be to install one with a small pulley, about 1 1/2" in diameter. I have tried a number of them, both original and reproduction, and the best I found in terms of cooling capacity was either a Climax or Impeller brand. These are the same style and do not have a small pulley but do cool better than the others I tried.
I suppose you are thinking about the racer you mention on your profile. In that case I think you may be right about the water pump requirement. I think the best water pump in that case is one that feeds the water in through the 3 core plug holes on the RH side of the engine. If you look at the old true race cars they typically ran this type. I will installing one on my 5 main flathead engine. For a flathead I particularly like this design as it puts the cold water in by the exhaust valves where you need it the most. Particularly when you consider that #4 exhaust valve is the one that burns on a flathead T. #4 cylinder is also the one that will score if the clearance is marginal. I would plan to use a thermostat.
I have the patterns for and have a cast a few pump bodies for this style. I do not have the patterns for the bracket however which also carried a magneto.
Tyrone I use Berg pumps with a thermostat on everything. They give great service and no problems. These anti water pump guys always tell you how bad they are and all the problems, but no statistics. If you think it will help if you have a problem run one.
A couple of the T people I know are running the sealed one with thermostat; I believe itís from Texas T Ben Hardman. They have no problems
I also stopped using a rod for the throttle through the block; now use the berg for a base to support a cable (as on lawn mower). Instant adjustments when changing carbs
Here's how it was on the first 2500(?) Model T:
Hal, I do not have my car assembled or close to running yet. Here is why I believe i will need one. Im using a souped up T engine, a 1923 plymouth radiator which is huge and the radiator will be about 6-8 inches away from the from of the engine. Im afraid the water will not circulate correctly on the thermo system only.
Otherwise I am not a pump person either.
I am using a Texas T water pump. It has sealed bearings and does not leak. I ended up making a larger pulley to slow down the flow. Even with a brass works rad. it would push coolant out the over flow. I do not run a thermostat which may have fixed my previous flow problem. My 13 block is bored .080" oversize which may be the source for my past heating problems.
The Texas T water pump is Aluminum which will corrode like the Z heads. Since using a water pump I have not had any more heating problems.
By going to a larger pulley, possibly the water pump bearing will last longer.
What I do not like about the old water pumps is that most leak coolant because they use the old style packing and require maintance. The plus side is you do not have a dis-similar metal problem with cast iron.
If you do not have heating problems then I would not add a water pump.
Im sorry all, I should have given details. It is kind of hit to give advice without all the details.
Everyone approach's questions posed here from a different point of view. I have learned to understand the questioners' perspective before giving absolute answers. This is why I asked Tyrone why he believed his Model T MUST have a water pump?
A stock Model T operating as originally designed does NOT need a water pump....period!
A Model T with a improperly operating engine or a radiator that has long since ceased to be a heat exchanger may operate better with a water pump, but that pump is only masking the real problem.
A modified Model T may require a water pump because the engine heat generated is beyond that a 80 year old or new radiator can deal with.
All I asked is where is Tyrone coming from so he can make an informed decision.
Ron the Coilman
The problem with any of the available water pumps for a Model T is they make the car unreliable and more prone to overheating, leaking water, and causing the rest of the group to have to stop and fix the stupid things.
Any time I go on a tour with ten or more Model T's there will be one of them with a leaky or seized water pump that causes overheating in the affected car. It makes the whole group real grumpy when they are late for the ice cream stop.
Tyrone -- Since your engine will be set back from the radiator, you might need to use a pump on this one. When I built the "Marrigage Carriage" a couple of years ago, I stretched the frame and the engine was set back 12" farther than normal from the radiator. I tried it first using the thermo-syphon system, but it would not circulate enough to cool the engine. The upper water pipe was nearly horizontal because of the engine's setback, rather than being at an angle as on a normal T. I had to use a water pump for that situation.
p.s. -- The pump I used is the one available from Texas T Parts. It has been only a couple of years, but so far it has been trouble-free.
Which ever one works best might be in question but they still make nice wall art in the shop. Bob
Hey Ralph, do you have a picture that shows where the water enters the pump on the early Ts?
Hey Bob, how does that one at the lower right work? Those four tubes must be for when it's boiling and blowing off a little steam!! =)
They do make good wall art. I should get some of mine cleaned up and hung up on the wall. They are in a pile on a shelf. I've probably got a dozen or so of them, some the same as these and some different. Maybe we should start a "Water pump of the Day," thread. Maybe after Chickasha.
The early T's had water pumps. Henry realized that the engine did not need one, and that the water pump made the car less reliable. So Henry completely redesigned the T engine block assembly and cylinder head in order to remove the water pump from the next 15 million + cars that he built.
Here are some pictures of a 1909 touring, serial number 9XX. In the top picture you can see where the water enters the engine block from the pump.
The water pump is removed and the car not driveable because the water pump was leaking. You can see the water pump sitting on the running board.
Here is a picture showing the outlet on top of the early 1909 cylinder head. Note that the carburetor is a later Holley, Model H1, circa late 1911 - mid 1912.
Sorry, Richard, I don't have another pic. Maybe Kim will supply some. You can see the water inlet below the shaft, if you study the pic a little.
Henry did a lot more than just remove the waterpump; he redesigned the entire cooling system to improve cooling circulation.
Look at the height of the head, and the small holes for water. It's no wonder the rear cyls overheated, while the front ones ran too cool.
Henry improved the cooling balance, but not enough. Here are a couple of examples of more balanced cooling:
First one is a 1913 Huppmobile.
I have used water pumps on Model T's over the years and always remove them when I get the radiator re-cored in order to have good cooling. Water pumps were sold to folks who had bad radiators, But if you must run one, I like the kind that are designed so that water will still thermosyphon past the impellor when the water pump bearing fails or the fan belt breaks and the pump is not turning.
I am building another Speedster type vehicle at this time and I am putting a four row radiator with no water pump on it and it has overhead valves.
Our number 22 Speedster used to run hot until I discovered that it had only a two row radiator on it in order to make the car lighter. We ran a water pump and always over heated at speed while climbing in the mountains. We had to carry extra water and it was a pain. I had a three row modern core put in the radiator and installed an over flow bottle with a pressure cap. We removed the water pump and the problem was solved and no more overheating.
Our son Bill is just finishing up his 1913 Speedster that he has posted pictures of on this web site. It has a brand new radiator with fins attached to the vertical tubes and it cools well. He has run it for over a half hour at idle on several occasions in order to break it in and then shuts it off. It only bubbled once and that was when the engine was very tight after a half hour at a good fast idle with occasional throttle adjustment to break it in properly.
In Bob Scherze collection of water pumps hanging on the wall the top right hand one is I believe an Atlas Water Pump. I believe that it may be a very good pump. Bill Heidenreich is one of the best Model T Mechanics that I know of. He was having trouble with his very fast and powerful TT heating. He found what I believe is an Atlas water pump at a swap meet and installed it. Bill stated that it has helped a lot. I posted some picture of an Atlas Water Pump a couple of weeks ago but can't find it now.
When installing a waterpimp, it's a good idea to mark a position on the pulley where the impellers are aligned to allow thermobarf if the belt breaks.
I had a speedster with a fresh engine and new radiator that overheated in the daytime when the sunwas out and it was warm. In fact even at night if I drove by a house where they had all the lights turned on at night my car would get hot!
I put on a good rubber Gates fan belt and was amazed at how normal the car's temp. was even on 90 degree days after that.
Before I had a slippery leather belt.
It never overheated or lost water after putting on the good belt.
I'll bet that if Tyrone uses that Plymouth radiator with a fan shroud he will not need a water pump.
One nice thing about a water pump is that when you see water running out under the front of your car there is no need for panic. It's probably just the waterpump leaking.
If you don't do parades or badly congested traffic, you don't need a fan..
I think another aspect with water pumps that might compound the problem, is most people use automotive grease to lubricate them and you end up with little grease balls plugging your radiator core. the regular water pump grease is tallow (animal fat) based and when it gets into your cooling system it flows with the water like oil on broth. I learned this with with old farm tractors.