Wanted photos and information on late 1924 to 1925 year 30 x 3 1/2 Demountable Clincher rims and wheels

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: Wanted photos and information on late 1924 to 1925 year 30 x 3 1/2 Demountable Clincher rims and wheels
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 08:43 am:

Steve Boothroyd sent me a picture of his 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher demountable rim with fixed lugs. He shared it looks almost exactly the same as one of his Hayes fixed lug rims. It has "Ford K" on one of the fixed lugs. And he was wondering when they were used.





First who produced the rim? I suspect it was Kelsey but if someone can confirm or correct that it would be greatly appreciated. Rationale: The “K” marking is very similar to the “K” used on the Nov 19, 1923 (year model 1924) Touring in the Nov – Dec 1979 “Vintage Ford” article [used by permission to promote our club and hobby] about mostly original car that had been restored. In the article on page 31, they showed the following photos of the Kelsey “lose lug” rims that were on the car.





The article stated, “The rims were stamped on the inside,
“No. 88, 30 x 3%, Manufactured by Kelsey Wheel Company,
Detroit, Michigan. K Pat. 7-6-9, g-27-10, and
7-24-17, other patents pending.” Also, all five rims were
stamped “10-23” which I presume indicated they were
made in October 1923 - consistent with the November
1923 manufacture of the car. Lugs were stamped “88
Rim, Pat. 7-6-09.” “

Below is an expanded view of that known Kelsey 88 rim with the “K” inside the circle.



Note the similarities in the “K” with the picture of Steve’s lug shown below:




So when was a “Fixed Lug” Hayes style rim produced by Kelsey used by Ford Motor Company? That would have started shortly after Mar 7, 1924 (Ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels ) where an excerpt from a letter to the Ford Branches says:

“The necessary changes have been made in the Kelsey wheel and rims also the Firestone and Cleveland rims so that with the exception of a few Kelsey wheels which are still to be shipped, we will have but one wheel and one rim for production, even though they are being shipped from three different sources. The felloe band on the Kelsey wheel has been changed so that it is exactly the same dimension as the Ford, Hayes, or Motor wheel and a car could be built with one wheel of each make. The rims have been changed to the ‘attached lug’ type and a car could be built using one rim of each Hayes, Kelsey, Motor Wheel, and Firestone.
“This arrangement will make it possible to report front demountable wheels as one item, rear demountable wheels as one item and T-8774 rims as one item. The bolts and nuts are also interchangeable…This arrangement will eliminate the necessity of carrying the stocks in your plant separately, i.e., when you receive a carload from Kelsey you can unload it and put material in the same pile with Hayes or Ford wheels and the rims with Hayes, Cleveland or Firestone rims.”

And always a few more questions. Does anyone have access to a rim without a tire that has a “Ford K” stamped on the lug? If so, would you please check on the inside of the rim and see if it says Kelsey and if it has any sort of date shown.

What about the Firestone, Cleveland, and perhaps Motor brand of rims? Does anyone have any of those with the Fixed lugs? According to the letter the Firestone and Cleveland for sure produced them. And perhaps Motor Wheel also? Firestone also marked some of their rims with their name on the inside of the clincher. Did they also mark any of their fixed lugs? And has anyone seen any stamping that would indicate they have a wheel or rim produced by Cleveland?

Again thank you Steve for sending the photos and to all of you for helping us add a little bit more to our understanding about the wheels and rims used by Ford.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Boothroyd on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 01:27 am:

Hap, if I get time this weekend, I will pull the tire and let you know if I find a makers mark inside the rim.

Regards,

Steve Boothroyd


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 07:05 am:

Steve,

I really appreciate your offer to remove the clincher tire to check the inside of the rim for markings. But I would NEVER ask anyone to do that for me. I have only changed a few clinchers and I haven’t tried the trash bag method (I plan to give it a try the next clincher tire I change). But unless you have a real easy method for changing a clincher (I wanted a strong, smart, teenage son for things like that but God blessed me with daughters instead) I would not change a clincher just for possibly of finding some marking. My Dad grew up around Ts back in the twenties. And every time he told a story about him, or his Dad, or someone else changing a clincher he would add “That would make a Preacher cuss.” Implying it was an aggravating job. Additionally I don’t want you to take the chance of pinching the tube. When done correctly they seldom get pinched – but it can happen.

So hopefully someone out there will have a rim with the “Ford K” on the lug that does NOT have a tire on it and they will be able to check for the “Kelsey” name stamped on the inside. The best time to check is when they are cleaned up for painting. And for us folks with the trifocals, it doesn’t hurt to ask someone with better eyes to take a look for us. It is amazing what my wife can see that I have to get just at the right distance with more light, and look through the correct part of the glasses or I can easily miss it.

I’ll also try to keep an eye out for any articles that may have more information about a rim with “Ford K” stamped on the lug. And the next time you have a flat or after you have driven the tread of the clinchers and put on the new tires – drop me and Steve Shelton [see his profile at: http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profil e=steve_s2-users ] a note with what you find. We are both working on documenting the different Rims, Felloes, lugs, and lug nuts, that Ford used on the cars.

Anyone have a “Ford K” stamped on a lug of their 30 x 3 1/2 demountable clincher rim? And is the tire already off?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 07:55 am:

Hap, please do the 21 inch rims next. They are not all the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 09:07 am:

Hap,

I am new to the forum and find some of the stuff fascinating. Clincher rims are a special interest of mine too, but for different reasons.

From personal observations over 40 years,it would seem likely that here in Australia, as soon as demountable rims were available, they became the standard. Being sourced from Canada all were 30 x 3.5" and until 1925 I believe all were the loose lug and flanged nut type as posted by you.We had two main makers, Kelsey and Hayes. Kelsey rims had a flat base to the rim, with a continuous solid bead around the rim to engage on the felloe, whereas the Hayes rims had a rolled in bead to engage the felloe and a corresponding groove on the inside of the rim.

The felloes had a land punched into them for the longer leg of the loose lug to engage on.Hayes rims had a land machined into the rolled bead, like the one in your photo, to engage the short leg of the loose lug. On Kelsey rims the short leg simply engaged on the continuous solid bead. Both types were wedged onto the outer edge of the felloe by the pressure exerted by the loose lug and flanged nut.

Steve's Ford K lug rim has the solid bead like the Kelsey rims we have. I looked through my stocks of rims and found 4 Kelsey rims without lugs and none have the K on the inside either. Ours were made in Windsor, Ontario, by the way.

My lugged rims show differences also. None of the Kelsey type with the solid bead have a brand on the lug. These lugs are welded/rivetted to the rim like the Ford K lug in Steve's photo. On the Hayes rims there is a foot on the lug which protrudes half way across the rim.

When looking for felloes to build into a pair of Hayes 30 x 3.5" wire wheels I discovered that the loose lug type rims have a larger diameter felloe than the fixed lug ones, about 3/16" in diameter.The Kelsey type lugged rims will go noto these, but the Hayes type with the foot on the lug will not.

Further, while loose lug rims wedge onto the outside edge of the felloe, lugged rims engage on a wider inner land on the felloe. Unless the rim has been loose and has worn the felloe, the fixed lugs will not meet the felloe.

I discovered all this after welding up and grinding back all the wooden spoke holes and punched lands in some loose lug felloes to use them in Hayes wire wheels, when I should have been using the smaller diameter fixed lug type.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 09:53 am:

Hap

Here are pictures of 2 styles of fixed lug rims, they are most likely the 2845B style, the only thing different is the 'bead' thickness that goes around the rim and contacts the outer felloe edge.




These fixed lug rims have the 'thin' line bead.


Close up view of thin bead


Inside rim showing the lug prongs welded in place.
No markings in the rim or outer lug face, of course some rust over the years may have removed the markings if any.

Here is the other common style of fixed lug clincher


This pair show the same lug, but the bead is more square in shape, with a tapered side and larger bead.


Close up view of the 'thicker' bead.


Inside view of rim, lug fastened the same way, no markings in these rims.

Hope these help, would like to know maybe which mfg made these different 'bead' rims, otherwise these clincher rims are identical in most respects.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 10:19 pm:

For James -- We are also collecting the information on the 21 inch split rims, felloes, lugs, and lug nuts. Funny that Ford made all the wheel suppliers produce interchangeable parts starting around Mar 1924 but when the balloon tires were introduced Ford allowed a lose lug Kelsey as well as the fixed lug Hayes style split rim. Ford of Canada used a slightly different split rim with some extra holes in the side of the rim for a rim spreader. And of course the latch mechanisms on the split rims also varied. If you already have some information or questions about the 21 inch split rims, please drop me an e-mail or start a new thread, so we don’t hi-jack this one.

For Allan – thank you for joining us. Although you haven’t posted many times before, from your profile and your posting it appears you have been working with Ts for quite a while. Welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your experience with the felloes and rims. Just as Ford Motor Company USA established a branch plant in Canada to avoid tariffs, so did Kelsey Wheel (sometime between Mar 1912 and mid-1913 ref: page 100 “In the Shadow of Detroit.”). And they provided the Kelsey 88 lose lug rim to Ford of Canada until approximately the 1925 model year began. The Jan 1, 1925 Canadian Ford price list of parts does not show the fixed lug rim yet. But from memory, I’m 90% sure that it was during the 1925 model year that Ford Canada started using the fixed lug 30 x 3 1/2 clincher rims (i.e. the 4845B Ford style ). No rush, but if you have time, would you please send some photos and/or post them showing the different rims and felloes? And if you could include a ruler or something with a known size so we can judge the size of the flanges etc. Again thank you for posting.

For Dan – thank you for posting the photos. I sure wish you had been able to find some sort of manufacture marking. I agree with you that they appear to be a 2845B Ford style rim. Note I believe that both Firestone and Cleveland produced the 2845B Ford style rim for Ford. (So did Kelsey – but they apparently stamped the lug with a “Ford K.”) Firestone often marked their rims on the inside of the rim. Shown below is an ACCESSORY Firestone rim provided by Layden Butler which shows the FIRESTONE in all capital letters (with some other letters before and after FIRESTONE.).



As you mentioned, the rust may have gotten any name that was lightly stamped on the rim. But since it does not have a “Ford K” on the lug and it does not have Firestone on the inside of the rim, I would guess it might be a Cleveland produced rim or perhaps Motor Wheel produced rim. So far we have not hear or seen any marking for either of those two manufactures of Ford wheel parts.

Thank you all for taking a look. Hopefully one or more of you will run across sine rims and felloes with clear markings. Including someone finding a rim without a tire that has the “Ford K” on the lug and who can check the inside of the rim. [Note for felloes – the marking maybe on the outside of the felloe – so it can be seen even when the rim is mounted on the felloe. From memory – and that is dangerous – I think the marking may also be found on the inside of some felloes.]

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


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