List of Canadian Serial Numbers

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: List of Canadian Serial Numbers
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Kramer on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 07:41 pm:

Does anyone have a monthly list of the Canadian serial numbers they could post? The only list I have been able to find just gives a range of numbers for the entire year which makes it difficult to determine the month in which the car was made.

Chris


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 08:11 pm:

These are the only records available.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Kramer on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 08:29 pm:

So using these numbers would it be correct to assume that a Canadian 14 T should have a serial number somewhere between C1500 and C16500?

Chris


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 10:10 pm:

The listing below has been posted in the past and from memory I believe it agrees with the hand written listing that apparently was copied from it.





Note according to page 539 of Bruce McCalley's book (information also available on his "Comprehensive Model T Ford Encyclopedia" the date and numbers for 1909-1920 were based on fiscal years and NOT calendar year and NOT model year. What does that mean -- for the USA production the approximate date of the model year (i.e. just as today, the 2011 cars will be introduced in the Fall of 2010 -- normally the new Model T model year in the USA started in the previous year.) One exception to that was the 1915 model year for open cars -- probably started in Jan but the 1914 models were still being produced by the USA branch assembly plants.

Bruce also has an additional listing based on information individuals sent in. But it does not tie the engine number to the model year of the car -- only to the casting dates and/or to the list above or some other source of dating when it was provided.

For Canadian production -- I do not know of an authoritative listing of when their model years began. I would suggest looking at the Frontenac site at: http://www.modelt.ca/ and looking at some of the Canadian cars along with the information they share. In some cases you can easily take an engine that is from a transition time and build an authentic car for the previous or the following year. I.e a Feb 1915 USA engine could have been placed in a 1915 style body at the Highland park plant or a 1914 style body at one of the branch plants. But those transition months are not as easily found for the Canadian production.

Good luck with your project. While not requested the following is offered for free and may not be worth that much. If you are just starting out -- I would recommend purchasing as complete a car as possible that is in running shape. If your budget won't allow purchasing a driver 1913, a good 1920's running car will usually provide most folks more fun than building up a 1913 over a ten year period. And you can always build up a car while you are enjoying the one that already runs.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 10:18 pm:

Christopher

Bruce's big book on page 540 lists about 20 serial #'s from shipping records.

That list places these:
C12,109 Jan 23 1914

C23,488 Nov 4, 1914

Not sure on the Ford Canada Fiscal year, that could be July to July ? Don't know if the model year in Canada was same as US, probably not.

If you extrapolate the list that Royce posted, you get Jul-1913 to Jul-1914 (13mo) there is total of 15,000 cars, or 1,153 per month.

Then Jul-1914 to Jul-1915 (13mo) there is total of 21,000 cars, or 1,615 per month.

So you could use the month figures to est. the date of any serial # and have a reasonable method of dating the Canadian T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Norton on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 12:34 am:

Some of above at http://modelt.ca/canada-fs.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 01:27 am:

Hi Hap and other members, there are a few things wrong here, first off the Ford motor company of Canada and Ford Motor Co. Australia did not have or did have very little information on their early cars as they destroyed it pre 1950s and club members where asked out here by the Ford Company to help and provide information to both company's which I sent loads of photo copies to both and some extra books that I had to both companys and from what memory I have left after smelling to much exhaust smoke from the T, the Victorian club members where asked to supply the same to rebuild the records also the ford fiscal year was or is the 1st September to 31 August and as for the numbers in Bruce's book.
"Quote" Bruce also has an additional listing based on information individuals sent in.
In answer to this, Peter Kable and I are the individuals who chased down hundreds of engines to get casting dates from as many years as possible and the engine numbers from over half of Australia and New Zealand that was requested by Bruce so as to build the records from there which are are more correct to what was made than a jotting from some production office that claimed not to have any records in the 1970s to 80s.
I would also add that Mr Smith is wrong on his colours for the cars as there is a copy of a the ford bulletin floating around (which I will see if I still have a copy to send if required)which lists two colours for 1911 to 1914 and not just blue.
On the early cars (1910 to 12)I have seen the production plate listing Walkerville Ont.as the ford production or assembly but the first 1913s had to be built else where as my car carries a plate stating it came from Ford Ont. which was a small town out side walkerville where ford made its brass ware and Radiators (Google for details) as opposed to ones made in Detroit USA which I have seen on the early Canadian Fords. (my cars has engine C323 and casting date of 3-18-13 and made in usa)
Another point to remember which applies to Canadian export vehicles was that there would have been no shipments while the lakes where frozen over or closed so there is a build up and mixed bag of casting dates in April and may of each year.
"Quote" PRODUCTION OF MOTORS STARTED IN CANADA STARTED MAY 20 1913. This seems to be another miss statement as the engine blocks sent out here up to mid 1914 as of information sent via emails to me as of today where still cast with MADE IN USA on them which was roughly ground off but still quite readable, so as far as I can see there where no Canadian blocks till mid or late 1914 which becomes 1915 production which there are examples around in cars for that year even through much of the Canadian production for 1915 seems to be sent to the war effort for use in the western front and England..thanking You... Ray Green


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 02:28 am:

Adding to Rays comments the only available Printed records that we found came from 2 sources. They were the Canadian edition of "Ford Factory Bullitins" of which I have a neally complete copy.

In them were printed from time to time updates on the production giving the engine numbers. There was also a "Ford Fordex book" printed in 1924 -25 which had the exact same numbers. (I'm assuming they got them from the bullitins or Ford themselves at that time. the numbers month for month always ended in a neat rounded of figure such as 293000 or 275000. Which seemed a bit unreasonable. Thats why the engine and casting dates were sought.

What we found was there was no obvious pattern and it became clear why when it was noted that the Canadian factory changed production processes in the winter. The workers were put to work in the warm areas of the factory so casting of blocks was done and they stocked up for spring.

When you think about it they would put in the first block followed by the later until they were done. So the first blocks out to get machined when they went back to normal were the last ones made. Often its months before they get to the back of the pile so we see blocks made in April with a low number and one cast back in November with a number a lot higher as it was probably June before they got to it.

Something that came about also was the letter casting system. As no one up to this time had been looking at Canada production much it hadn't clicked that the casting date was changed and they stopped using years and used a letter from the alpherbet staring with A in 1923, Once we got a list going it was right there looking at us. The years dissapeared and sudenly we get a letter instead as the engine numbers went higher.

Herb Smiths letter dated January 1987 is in answer to Bruce's inquiry at that time. As we had been told previously no records existed I think he made one up using the original printed list from the 1920"s and fiddled them a bit adding the last 3 numbers to make it look a bit better than the exact cut off each month at 000.
You will note that the numbers start in 1924 ( when the Ford bullitins started printing the lists)

Seems Canada was not that great at bookkeeping comparer to Detroit. I'm surprised Henry didn't insist on them being better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 07:58 am:

Royce, Ray, Peter, David, Dan and others,

Thank you all for the work you have done in the past and that you are continuing to do to help document what Ford of Canada did or at least what we can observe or speculate that they did.

For Dan – the listing on page 540 of Bruce’s book I believe is the one Peter, Ray and others supplied engine serial numbers and casting dates (when available). It does follow a few pages after the USA shipping documents summary, but it is a listing that people like Ray and Peter sent in with the information they found on the surviving engine blocks. And as Bruce notes in his book and his “Comprehensive Model T Encyclopedia” CD [ http://mtfca.com/encyclo/mccalley.htm ] sometimes a serial number is earlier than the casting date. It is generally believed that in those cases the block was replaced but the original serial number was stamped onto the replacement block by the Ford dealer (ref page 539 Bruce’s book and it is also mentioned in his CD.)

For Ray – you mentioned “"Quote" PRODUCTION OF MOTORS STARTED IN CANADA STARTED MAY 20 1913. This seems to be another miss statement as the engine blocks sent out here up to mid 1914 as of information sent via emails to me as of today where still cast with MADE IN USA on them which was roughly ground off…” I looked but I didn’t see where that was stated. But from Bruce’s book page 539, his CD, and other sources, I believe it is referring to Ford Canada “assembling” the motor/engine. According to Bruce’s book pg 540 both the “June 1922 issue of “Ford Owner & Dealer” and the Ford Service Bulletins of Canada list engine C1 being manufactured on May 1, 1913. But the Ford Archives Canada listed the same engine C1 being manufactured on May 20, 1913. But most of the sources I have seen agree that in May 1913, Ford of Canada began grinding off the “Made in USA” on the blocks and began assembling the engines in Canada. There are several sources that all agree that Ford of Canada began assembling the engines using USA blocks in May 1913. As with most other items, I’m sure there was some overlap when both USA produced engines with USA serial numbers and Ford of Canada assembled engines with C-serial numbers would have been used. I don’t know if that overlap was hours, days, weeks or a month or more. According to Bruce (page 539) “Judging from existing Canadian engines, the cylinder block castings were supplied from Highland Park until about Dec 1919. The “Made in USA” was ground off, and there is no “Made in Canada.” Beginning about number C230,000 the Canadian plant began their own casting, and the “Made in Canada” began to appear on the side of the cylinder block. As usual, there is some overlapping, with U.S and Canadian blocks being used for a time.”

Note, while I don’t own a Canadian T, I am very interested in helping to capture any documentation or other information about them. I want to provide that data to Bruce McCalley for inclusion in his excellent “Comprehensive Model T Encyclopedia.” That would include the Canadian cars and chassis sent to Australia, New Zealand, etc. I don’t think we will ever have as much detailed information about the Canadian cars as we do about the USA cars, I do think we can add more details that will be helpful. I am currently making very little progress on my hopes and dreams of ensuring Bruce’s Encyclopedia continues to be updated and helpful to restorers and researchers in the future. But it is one of my top projects for the future. As soon as I get the last daughter out of college, the garage built, and all the stuff moved (I still have at least one more u-haul truck of stuff to relocated) that is one of the projects I plan to devote a lot of time and effort to. And the information you and others are providing will be very helpful to that effort. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/111749.html for a summary of that dream. And I’m sure that several of you will be very helpful in making that a reality – some have already expressed a desire to help. And I thank each of you for that.

So much still to rediscover about all the T’s especially the ones produced by Ford of Canada.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 08:12 am:

A most interesting thread. In about 1960, I wrote to Leslie R Henry who was the curator of the Henry Ford Museum at the time and asked for Canadian numbers. I received a letter back with numbers listed but can't remember if it came directly from him or not. He did say that all of the Canadian early records had been handed to a book publishing company, and that I should inquire through them for more information.

I will search through my files and hope that I can locate that letter, and if successful, I'll post it here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 09:46 am:

Hi Hap, I have looked at the Frontenac site but it is a private business site and only reflects what is all ready known and Bruces book would be the Bible to work from.
As to the quote production of may 1913 please read the extract that you posted on from memory in the paragraph under T and TT production. The plant in Canada assembled engines from parts sent over from the US in 1913 and it was assemble only which I will agree with what you said, "assembly" not production.
The production of engines did not start till late 1914 as we all knew from surviving blocks when their own plant made the blocks and associated parts with made in canada on them for those engines but as always after one has all the facts and history is written some one comes along and has the one item which disproves all said here by contributors.
I received a phone call tonight in response to a search for early Canadian Blocks and what I now believe and is yet to be sighted is that a member of the club has a block produced in Canada with Made in Canada on the side and a casting date of 9-24-13 with a start of January 1914 C number stamped on it. Never have any been sighted in all the engines Peter or I have looked at before 1915. This is one for Peter to confirm that it is correct and we will all start over again... Ray`


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 05:54 pm:

Hello All,

Just a few comments to help clarify. I am not currently armed with my research material so this is going from memory (but I can check later if required).

Ford of Canada
During the period we are discussing, Ford of Canada was not owned by Ford USA. While Henry Ford was on the Ford of Canada board, he attended very few board meetings, and Canaada operated the business quite seperately.

Between 1910 and 1914, Ford of Canada increased their floor area by a massive 600,000 square feet. Albert Kahn (who had already designed Highland Park, and later The Rouge) was also involved in the design of the Candaian plant. Unlike the original wagon works, the Canadian Ford factory was now purpose-built and, I would suggest, took account of heating.

Ford of Canada Location and Export Routes
Windsor Ontario is seperated from Detroit only by the Detroit River. While there is nothing in it, Windsor is in actual fact further south than Detroit.
Usually, the Ford of Canada production was loaded onto ships at Windsor. The ships then sailed eastward, via the lakes and the St Lawrence Seaway to the Atlantic and on to the Pacific (no doubt through the Panama Canal, after it opened in 1914).
The point made about the lakes freezing over is a good one. This would also have affected Ford in Detroit - how did they deal with it? Henry, in Detroit, had supply and delivery ships coming and going daily.
I have seen photos of Ford of Canada production being sent by rail to Montreal, and loaded there onto the ships. Perhaps this was when the lakes had frozen?



Engine Manufacture
The popular belief is that Ford of Canada was supplied completed engines (Made in USA) up to May, 1913. After that, they assembled the Detroit-manufactured raw components in Canada - the process included gringing off the Made in USA, probably for tariff-reasons. Then, in December, 1919 Ford of Canada began casting their own.
Detroit accounted for the first period engine production but, when Canada began assembling them in 1913, Canada accounted for them, using the prefix C.

Ford of Canada History
So little is known, compared to that of Ford - USA. However, when I set out on my research a few years ago, I learned of someone called Sandy Notorelli (surname may be incorrectly spelt). I understand Sandy was the full time and knowledgable Ford of Canada historian. I understand that Ford of Canada had kept very good records. Unfortunately Sandy N was let go (approx 2004) and all the Ford of Canada records were sent to Highland Park for safe keeping. Incidentally, many of the records from Dagenham were also sent to Highland Park at the same time. When I was last talking with the historians at Highland Park, much or most of these records were yet to be sorted.

There's not a lot of detail above, I am sorry, because it comes from memory. However, I can elaborate at a later time if required - or it may trigger other thoughts. It is a fascinating subject.

John Stokes
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 06:11 pm:

Peter (and Ray),
You mentioned above (post 12 May 2.28am)... "the Canadian factory changed production processes in the winter. The workers were put to work in the warm areas of the factory so casting of blocks was done and they stocked up for spring."
Have you read or seen something to this effect? This would be interesting as, while Ford of Canada's domestic sales reduced during the northern winter, this was largely replaced by the export demand from the south.
John Stokes
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 06:47 pm:

Ray, another 5 engine details are on the way, more emails sent to other owners...Dave C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 07:18 pm:

Hi again, well John you said (Then, in December, 1919 Ford of Canada began casting their own) if this motor that turned up last night is correct, the your above production is incorrect and they where casting in late 1913 but I have seen blocks with made in Canada on them for 1915 so the plant was well under way by 1919 with the war effort.
At this time we now have four if not five stiles of blocks turning up for 1913.
1) Number above water outlet, casting date near outlet Made in USA but ground off.
2) Number same place, casting date same place but Ford script and no made in USA
3) Number same Place, casting date same place but Made in Canada on the skirt.
4) Number same place, no cast date, no made in Canada or USA and it seems there is no Ford script which I can not under stand why?.
As to the Warm area, Peter should be able to give you better details that I on that but the best fiscal evidence of that is when you have all the engine numbers laid out in front of you on a spread sheet then look at the casting dates, there is a strange mix match for the post winter months and a slow progression for the winter months....Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 04:50 am:

Ray, you can add another one
6) Number above water outlet, cast date lower back of block (behind starter it was to be fitted later) No Ford or made in - but not ground off (smooth casting) casting date 1917.

John, definately put in print. Not sure exactly where but I think it was in "Canadian Notes" from Ford Owner dealer magazine. Learnt a long time ago not to take a comment as being true unless there is backup proof (that goes for me saying that also)

Its been over 30 years since we did the survey. I should have the reference somewhere but one collects a lot of paper in 40 years so it may take a while. If my memory is right someone else may come across the note about the winter slow down as well.

When doing research the contact man was Herman Smith. In those days there was only Air/sea mail to correspond between parties. Herm must have been either old and cranky or a slacker as one always got little information or a denial he could help.

When I asked for a copy of the French Report A nasty letter arrived stating that it was only available to himself or officers in Ford Canada.
(I think I still have that letter)

I was given a copy later on by Ford Australia who said they were told initially it didn't exist any more. Somehow it magically appeared for me to research "The History of Ford in Australia" which Norm Darwin and myself wrote.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 06:24 am:

@John Stokes
Do you have any information about other Ford archivalia from the offices and companies abroad that was received in Dearborn for safe keeping?
Ford Motor Company A/S was formed June 25th 1919 and immidiately started assembly in an existing factory in Copenhagen. Later in 1924 the Ford factory in the South habour was moved to and assembly took place until the factory was closed in 1968 (or there about). I assume Ford had their offices and maybe archives at the factory. Today Ford Motor Company A/S resides in an ordinary and relatively small 2 store office builfing in a suburb of Copenhagen (Next to one of IBM's Datacenter and office sites btw :-). I have asked them - they have only what they need to fulfil danish law (5 years).
I am interested in Model T history of course, but also some time in the 1936-37 period where they began assembling Ford Eifels from Germany (I have one of them as well).
I know that Sam Roberts from Ford Model Y&C Register in the UK have spent a lot of time in Dearborn researching for his book about Model Y. I just wonder if there can be as many interesting artifacts regarding Ford in Denmark.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 06:31 am:

Here's what we mean by the "Made in USA" ground off on some of the early Canadian assembled engines. From what I have seen there appears to be no pattern, some 1912/13/14's do have it ground off, some don't, some only ever had a "Ford" script. This early 1914 motor is C12280 cast 12-30-13. Dave C.
C12880 cast 12-30-13


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 05:27 pm:

David

Thinking about the reasoning why the 'Made in USA' was ground off may explain the lack of an early pattern to the grinding?

I am speculating, but I do think grinding off the 'Made in USA' was a way to avoid the tariff that existed on goods imported into Canada from the US. It may have been a self-imposed requirement, to avoid drawing attention to the fact that the castings came from the US. It may have been a way of avoiding questions from Customs officers at the Commonwealth sea ports at which the exported Canadian Ts were arriving, which had tariffs on US-made products.

But there may be another reason too. It was about this time that Ford's UK-based competitors, faced with the success of the Ford, began making noises that Commonwealth member nations should be showing more loyalty to British-made products! The Ford campaign that "Fords are British" started, and staements such as "Fords are made at the Canadian Ford factory" in articles were now appearing.

John Stokes
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 05:41 pm:

Ray
It will be superb if it is possible to verify the engine that has just surfaced.

Peter,
What you say about Herman Smith is really funny! Did you have any dealings with Sandy Notorelli (again, surname may be incorrectly spelt).

You are quite right about the need to make only supportable statements. One of my great mentors in this regard has been young Hap Tucker, who has assisted my research enormously and help me develop good habits!!

I did not realise you were involved with the production of the Norm Darwin book! That must've been a massive effort - I have referred to it a lot. I only have a soft-cover version of this book, but want to get the hard cover one for my library. I already had the Geoff Easdown (spelling?) book, and recently purchased "True Blue", which I think is very good too.

John Stokes
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 05:53 pm:

Michael,

I am sorry but I do not know what has happened to any other archival material belonging to Ford. Mind you, I have had no reason to ask for European material - I think Australia has there's retained in Geelong, and much is retained in the UK too.

This almost requires a seperate thread!

I am reminded of a Henry Ford story that I think was Copenhagen (or possibly Germany). Henry turned up there as guest of honour to open the new Ford assembly factory. However, one of his requirements was that such a plant be located by a sea port, and this one was not. Once he discovered that, he turned around, walked away and refused to open it!

Does this story sound familiar to you?

The Ford history right thorough this period - the Model Y, the Eifel and Matford, etc - is all really interesting - I can't get enough of it!

John Stokes
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 06:03 pm:

John, Canadian tariffs at the time made shipping completed vehicles into Canada cost prohibitive. For Henry Ford, with his cheap reliable transportation, it must have driven him insane to think that a country as small as Canada could interfere with his business. However, you were allowed to ship in components, and assemble them in plants manned by Canadian workers. And you are quite correct in the grinding off of the Made in USA was to avoid the customs inspectors!!! It was simply a way for the Canadian government at the time to "keep jobs at home" Seems that this isnt a new problem after all for politicians!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 06:35 pm:

I don't want to wade too deep into this debate as it has been discussed for decades by people far more knowledgable than me.

I feel the best description of our Canadian cars, particulalrly to WW1 is something like "...assembled in Canada from local and US parts". Keeping this in mind, grinding off the "Made in USA" makes sense; Canada simply used imported parts with the offending markings removed to avoid Commonwealth importing tarrifs to support being "Made in Canada". This only became an issue on the engine block when "Made in USA" appeared under the Ford script. Before that it was fine.

John's statement bears merit in my view as being promoted as "Made in Canada" was important around this time particluarly with the fervour of the war and volunteering to fight for "King and Country". On my friends original 1915 it still has "Made in USA" stamped on the face plate of the radiator and on the running boards! Clearly not everything got the "removal" treatment. The engine would not escape as the engine numbers would have been viewed by HM Customs at landing for checking against relevant documentation and lists. The dealer would of checked the engine number upon delivery, the dealer would off rechecked the engine number for the receipt at purchase, the engine number would of been used again for registration purposes etc.etc. The engine number was the first port of call so to speak for so many reasons. It therefore makes sense that efforts were made to remove the "Made in USA" in such a highly visible place.

Perhaps the blocks were ground off in the USA as a requirement for shipment over the border? Who knows? The radaitors are another item that makes great discussion. The 1915 mentioned above has "Made in USA" on the face plate but "Ford Motor Co. Canada" and a serial number on the badge mounted on the rear tank! Canadian 'T's are so interesting...whether we like it or not they are just different. Dave C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 08:09 pm:

Hi All, The grinding was really only a tariff issue to break into the British Commonwealth country's as the Bureaucratic process here even tried to hit people bring cars in that they had taken out and returned with a duty ( Frances Birtles and the Bean would be a high profile case) and as for Australia as most people know, we even stopped ford body's to protect the home market and made our own. I was in the motor trade in the early 1960s and the import tariff on parts from the US was up to 85% and the cars was up to 125% duty and it was a left over from that time but from Empire country's is was a lot cheaper. The duty on left over war time vehicles under lend lease was that high so that's why many where destroyed here and never returned to the US... Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 08:26 pm:

Gaaaawd Ray,
Please don't start on the post-war tariffs thing! That is a fascinating tale too. John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 11:19 pm:

John – thank you for the kind words. Like the story of the blind men looking at the elephant each of them has part of the picture (it’s a tree, it’s a rope etc.). So most of us only have a small part of the historical documentation or the fossil remains of cars or car parts. And we most often don’t know the complete history of the car or parts. But as we pool and gather the “bits and pieces” each of us has or can find, we begin to see more and more of how Ford of Canada probably produced the cars and parts. The great news, the internet allows us to share information -- both accurate information and probably some that may be off a little or even a lot. But we should be able to correct the information much more easily than just 20 years ago. And some of us – such as myself – have to remind ourselves that just because it was in print doesn’t mean it was necessarily accurate. Many things have been discovered and are still being discovered (or rediscovered). In the 1950s the fossil record showed that many original looking 1915 USA cars didn’t have a horn button and apparently never had an electric horn button but instead they had a hand klaxon. And the Ford books of that era [“Henry’s Wonderful Model T Ford” etc. and as late as 1971 [page 147 “From Here to Obscurity”] shared that the 1915 Fords came from the factory with a hand klaxon as a result of that “fossil evidence.” But additional research of at the Ford Archives [details on the metal dash shields clearly show they were made to accept the bulb horn tube see John Regan’s details at: http://www.funprojects.com/search.cfm?querystr=dash+shield&querytype=all ; and other archive information see: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/F-H.htm#horn ] as well as further research and relooking at some of those original 1915s showed that they actually were fitted with bulb horns [screw holes were found in the wood horn mounting block etc.] and not hand klaxons. And so the information was updated when it was published in Bruce’s “Model T Ford” book.

So if we can document where things are coming from, i.e. fossil record, documentation from the archives, documentation from a book and which book and when was it published etc. we should be able to help formulate a better picture of what happened or at least several possibilities of what happened.

Work – it gets in the way of the research and driving – but it pays for all those things we need. I am hoping that book “In the Shadow of Detroit” will have some additional information about the castings and machining etc. See: http://books.google.com/books?id=THOyZ5JwkEQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=In+the+shad ow+of+detroit+roberts&source=bl&ots=89W4RWsuaa&sig=rUCwxEEr3dS079SpXPlOfBdDNA8&h l=en&ei=677sS5zZAYWglAeY-dy2CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6 AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false and scroll down to page 64-65 where they discuss the machining of the blocks with pictures from the Dec 1913 issue of Canadian Machinery. I’m 80% sure it discusses the foundary for casting the blocks being opened around 1919 somewhere in that book. But I haven’t found the reference yet. And of course the reference may be inaccurate. But if so, we would like to document that for future folks so they won’t get trapped by it.

I hope to look for some more references over the weekend. Note the Ford of Canada archives went to The University of Windsor and NOT to the Benson Ford Archives. The University of Windsor has been very helpful to some other early Ford researchers. You can contact them via their web site at: http://web4.uwindsor.ca/units/archive/ford.nsf

Again thank you to everyone who is looking as well as those that are able to find something to contribute. I think we will have a much better feel for when Ford of Canada began casting their own engine blocks as this thread continues to encourage folks to look, ask questions, and share what they have discovered.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 08:20 am:

Again reference Roberts book “In The Shadow of Detroit” see:
http://books.google.com/books?id=THOyZ5JwkEQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=In+the+shad ow+of+detroit+roberts&source=bl&ots=89W4RWsuaa&sig=rUCwxEEr3dS079SpXPlOfBdDNA8&h l=en&ei=677sS5zZAYWglAeY-dy2CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6 AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Search on “castings” or go to page 88 near the bottom of the first paragraph where the author shares, “In May 1913, for instance, the plant began machining and assembling its own engines (the castings themselves came from Michigan until 1919). In September [1913] the Canadian company terminated it supply arrangements with the Dodge brothers in order to begin making its own transmissions and other engine parts.” His footnote for that is from chapter 3 footnote #67 can be found on page 277 and reads in part, “…That only the machining of engines (rather than full casting) began in 1913 is suggested by the company’s acquisition that year of a 15-spindle, fixed-center drilling machine and vertical drilling machines. See University of Windsor Archives (UWA) , Ford Motor Company Canada (FMCC) collection box 6, file 73).

So clearly starting in 1913 Ford Motor Company Canada did much more than assemble the engine from the parts shipped from Ford in Detroit. They were machining the blocks And on page 66 the caption under the picture reads “Ford Motor Company of Canada factory, heat-treatment department. The parts in the foreground are engine crankshafts. Canadian Machinery, 25 Dec 1913. Photo by Mark Coatsworth.”

Still lots more to confirm, but Roberts used McCalley and several other references on his conclusion that the cylinder blocks were machined from 1913 up until approximately 1919 when they he [and several others] believe the actual casting of engine blocks by Ford of Canada began.

And a side note for Ray -- while looking for this information I also ran across on page 87 of the same book, second paragraph “Other good news came that month [Dec 1912] when, under an Essex County bylaw, the area around the Ford plant was carved out of the Township of Sandwich East and erected as a separate village, to provide municipal services to the Ford-based community. It was appropriately named Ford City. With industry booming, its population doubled within the next eight months. To avoid a confusion of name and location, the company’s designation as Ford Walkerville continued for many more years.” So it may be a case that the same area was referred to by more than one name depending on what time frame and who was referring to it. This would also be another good item to document – the ID patent plates on the Canadian cars. A very quick look at some of the images I have saved show all have Ford Motor Company and then in smaller print “OF CANADA LIMITED” but some have WALKERVILLE, ONT[not sure if it is spelled out or only a few letters] while others have FORD, ONT.

This probably is not that fascinating to someone with a USA car, but I think it is great that we can gather some additional information – even if it is in conflict – to help us better understand what Ford of Canada may have likely done.

For those who like to read – I would recommend the book “In the Shadow of Detroit.” Not nearly as many details about the cars as I would like, but many details woven in the story which is primarily about Mr. Gordon McGregor the president and founder of Ford of Canada.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 10:47 am:

Well Hap, after reading your post of Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 11:19 pm I took it that you wished to finish this thread but I am glad you wish to keep it going as we will get more facts yet but one thing I would ask is that, do you have a lot of Ford books on Canada and do you have a lot of time on your hands or you are not married to read all these books to find facts about Ford Canada.
I never get much time these days to read any books and my supply is limited to what I could purchase on my one visit to Hershey Swap meet.
What I know of Ford City is that it was a community in the Canadian province of Ontario,
Although the Ford Motor Car Company was established in Windsor as early as 1904 to gain the benefit of Imperial trade preferences, it was the period during and following World War I which saw the auto industry assume predominance in the City. An area known as “Ford City” was developed around the industrial complex.
The last remaining building of Ford is the engine plant which was there that Ford had casting and Machine shops to make parts for the plant in Walkerville.. In 1935 Ford City merged with the City of Windsor, along with the towns of Sandwich and Walkerville from the guide book. I did spend a week in the area in 1993 chasing up things to see and have a few Ford Times from Ford Canada for 1915 which I purchased from a book shop in the city.
The books you are quoting, I have never seen or heard of so I can not look up the pages that you talk about but I do like this comment that you made ". And some of us – such as myself – have to remind ourselves that just because it was in print doesn’t mean it was necessarily accurate" I try to use the item that I can touch and work from there and in the last few days the knowledge has changed in leaps and bounds and will go on.... Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 11:49 am:

That tariff situation could also be the reason that Made in USA was removed from the 1926 engine block and head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 07:12 pm:

In 1913 there are at least 4 different blocks that we have found so far; cleanskins with not Ford script at all, Ford - Made in USA that got through unmolested, Ford - Made in USA that has been ground off and Ford - Made in USA that has been purposely blanked out in the casting process. We haven't even discussed with and without any casting dates.

I have to go to Oakdale Netball with my daughter now...but I will try later and dig up some pictures to show the differences. Dave C


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Manuel Voyages on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 08:10 pm:

I'm with u John. Ford history is fascinating. I have been following it for a long time and reading whatever I can find. The more I read the more I seem to want to find out.
I started with Ford Aus, then USA and now I am interested in Canada and the whole [Commonwealth] export scene.
Cheers,
Manuel in Oz


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 10:41 pm:

Manuel - you are quire right about the Ford history... the more we learn, the less we know! It's the same as any study, I guess.
For me, there are some examples of Ford production that have very real meaning in the Ford history. The Model T is right up there. So is the V-8. But also the Model Y - many Americans won't know this car, but it represents Ford's break away from a worldwide single model policy. The Model Y story is a great one - it was released in 1932, and looks remarkably like the 1933-34 V-8....

Model Y

Another example is the Zephyr - first seen at the 1950 Earls Court Motor Show, it took it's name from the pre-war Lincoln... the first monocoque and, following the end of the horsepower tax, it came with an oversquare motor built for performance! They look remarkably like the "Forty-niner".

There are more too, but these are the four that really do it for me in terms of Ford history-making!

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 10:42 pm:

Ray,

I admit, I enjoy reading and researching the early cars more than many folks do. Part of that has to do with two kids in college and wondering if my job was going to continue or not. Reading about the early cars is a lot less expensive than purchasing the cars or in my own case purchasing the parts and hiring the rebuilding of things I cannot do myself (reboring cylinders, grinding cranks etc.). I am very fortunate that my Dad gave me several good cars. Not necessarily tour ready, but clearly worth restoring and/or getting them back on the road. He also left me a couple of projects that would really make more sense to turn into a speedster or to part out – but we will have to see what happens with those. Since I would like to make the cars as reasonably accurate as practical, I have tried to research the ones we have. That has led to questions by others and so I have tried to research some of those questions. Which led to even more questions of my own that I try to research. Just recently I have been blessed by my oldest daughter graduating and she should be getting married this fall. And our job was renewed for several more years. And I’m very blessed to be happily married to a wonderful wife (I don’t know how she made that mistake – but I’m so thankful she married me and puts up with me.).
My wife has allowed – actually encouraged me to purchase a tour ready speedster (I had to give up several projects – but that is ok). I anticipate the car will cut into the research and reading especially during the spring and fall when it is just so nice to drive around in a T.

For the past few years I have always asked my family to purchase old car books for me for Christmas and my birthday. I look them up and give them a list of several books, pamphlets, and CDs ranging from $1 [Lang’s “Hassler Shock Absorber General Instructions”] up to asking them to pool their money and let the book count for Christmas and Birthday from all of them [The Ford Road Series – I received one of those one year]. And of course I also borrow books from the library – they have an inter-library book loan service and for free [technically my property taxes support the local library that ordered it for me] I was able to read the “Ford Factories.” That is how I obtained the books. I have a couple with information about Ford Canada. The one I quoted from “In the Shadow of Detroit” by David Roberts. You can actually read all 265 pages but the pictures are missing at the link I posted: http://books.google.com/books?id=THOyZ5JwkEQC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_ summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false Or go to Google books and type in “In the Shadow of Detroit” David Roberts and it will bring it up. So if you find time you can scroll down to those pages. I also have “Ford and Canada 100 Years Together” by James C. Mays. Not many car details in that one but if someone is interested in Ford of Canada history – it has some good points. I also have “The History of Ford in Australia” which Peter Kable – who researched and wrote the Model T chapters of that excellent book. And I have “Ford Ahead a History of ‘The Colonial Motor Company Limited’” [New Zealand]. And David Chantrell’s excellent book “Duncan & Fraser Ltd. “Legacies Left Untold”[see: http://www.duncanandfraser.com/ ] that discusses many of the Duncan & Fraser bodied Model T Fords as well as other items. I also have James C. May’s e-book which is primarily photos of Fords. Several are actually USA but many are the Canadian produced cars. And each of these can help add a little more information or puzzle pieces to our understanding. And I forgot to mention that our local Model T Ford club has a library that allows us to check out books and CDs between meetings. That is something that can be very helpful to any of the local clubs. Most of us will only watch the “How to rebuild the x,y,z” a few times and then we have rebuilt the item and the video or CD will not be watched again unless we need to rebuild that area of the car again. One of our long time members donated his Model T library to the club and it has been a real blessing to many of us. And I’ve been very fortunate that different people have sent me items over the years. And don’t forget the MTFCI Digital Library. It contains several Ford of Canada Service bulletins, price lists of parts, and owner’s manuals. As well as some great shots of a 1926 Canadian coupe.

Note in the instance of the hand klaxon the fossil information led to research in the archives that proved that the hand klaxon was not original equipment on the 1915 Model T Fords. But there have also been other cases where the fossil record has prompted research that confirmed the fossil or original car actually was built by Ford the way it was found. John Regan did that with the “pointy” 1916 front springs. The fossil record had one so he started looking and found the documentation in the archives.

And the archives can also help us find things in the fossil record. Trent Boggess posted the information below back in Dec 2007:

++++++++++++++++++ from Dec 2007++++++++++++
By Trent Boggess on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 09:35 pm:
Folks,

I feel the need to step up to defend John Regan and to put some perspective into this thread.

Like John, I have spent some hours studying the Model T engineering records, and he is correct that for the most part the engineers kept very careful and detailed records on each part. When a change in a part was made, it was documented what was being changed, who authorized the change and when the change took place. Sometimes these changes occurred in rapid succession. In my experience, I have found them to be remarkably accurate.

But still I have found parts on cars that I have never found a record for. One car in particular has a transmission cover that I simply cannot find any indication in the records that it was ever produced or used. Nevertheless, it appears to be original to the car. Does this mean that the transmission cover is wrong and should be changed? Not necessarily, it just means that there is no documentation in the engineering records at this time to support that it was used.

The same can be said of the fuel pipe. The Ford engineers kept detailed records, and yet nowhere in the records do they indicate that any material other than brass was used for the pipe. Does this mean that a steel pipe was never used? Again, not necessarily, but what can be said is that there is no documentation at this time to support the use of steel in this part.

But there is one other point that makes me trust the records more: I am continually amazed at the many variations of parts that were used for only a short time during production that we can find surviving examples of. Here are a few examples:

The records indicate that for a few months in the spring of 1916 Ford replaced the malleable iron frame to dash brackets with some made from steel straps. They only used it for one or two months, but I have found cars with the straps still intact, and I eventually found one NOS steel strap frame to dash bracket for my modest collection.

The records indicate that for a few months in the late spring or early summer of 1918 the bronze horseshoe riveted to the clutch lever shaft was changed to a steel forging. This only lasted a few months but again several have been found on cars manufactured during those months.

In early 1919 the Ford engineers were having trouble keeping the face of the clutch disc drum from being scored by the heat and pressure it receives whenever the clutch pedal is in the neutral or low speed positions. For several months they tried using a clutch disc drum with a spiral groove cut in the face that rides up against the bronze top hat bushing in the brake drum. It turns out it didn’t do any good, but they produced them, used them, and I have since found several examples.

Did you know that at one time the Ford engineers tried to make the clutch disc fingers out of pressed steel instead of forgings? They did, the change was documented in the records and I have an output shaft plate that has them. When the pressed steel firewall first appeared in 1923 Ford did not yet have new dash to frame brackets in production to match the steel firewalls. The engineering documents records indicate that for about six weeks Ford used the same brackets as it had used with the wood firewall, but used four aluminum spacer pillars about ½ inch tall to make up the difference between the thickness of the wood and steel firewalls. I am still looking for a surviving example of these and if someone has seen them, please let me know.

The point of the examples above is that we found out about the variation first by reading about them in the records. Then later we stumbled upon surviving examples and were able to identify them for what they were. This is why both John and I have a healthy respect for the accuracy of those records. When we are presented with a claim that a part was used that we can find no reference to in the records, the only response we can make is that we cannot find any evidence in the records to document that claim. If you have a part that you believe to be original to your car but which is not supported by the documentation, then by all means leave it alone. The day may come when we may find documentation that shows that that variation was actually used. But that day is not here yet.

Fred Houston’s example of changing the amount of steel content in Model T touring bodies during WWI is another example of when we have learned something that changes our views. When Model T authorities reached the conclusion that bodies were made using less steel during the WWI it seemed reasonable and at that time we did not know how many different outside vendors were supplying touring car bodies to Ford during those years. When Ford ordered bodies from a vendor they provided the vendor with a set of “package” drawings – these specified the basic dimensions the body was to be built to, but did not specify precisely how each body was to be made. Some vendors chose to meet the overall specifications by using more steel than wood, while others did the opposite. So it was not due to the war itself that the amount of steel changed, but instead the amount of wood versus steel depends on who the manufacturer was. The first explanation was quite reasonable until we learned more about who was building Model T bodies, and then it became apparent that a better explanation came from who was the body manufacturer.

There are no “experts” on the Model T alive today. They are all long gone. All we have today are students who study what are sometimes incomplete records, then look for original cars to see what matches the records. But at this time, both John and I agree that the best information we have to go on now is the Ford engineering records.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess
+++++++++++++ end of Dec 2007 insert +++++++++++++++

So again, please keep that fossil information, archive information, and other information coming. It all contributes to a better understanding about the cars and how they were most likely constructed.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Manuel Voyages on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 02:12 am:

John, I am familiar with Y's, C's, Dagenhams, Thames, Pilots and most of the pommy jobs.
Would love to find out more about Matfords, Eifels and Kolns.
I have been told the first Zephyr 6 was quite a car when introduced.
I suppose the Y was the beginning of the UK/European Ford variations.
I have often wondered if the colonies received any UK Model T's?
We got their repair manuals here.
Manuel in Oz


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 02:57 am:

For those interested in the small European Fords, who are ancesters somehow to all small Fords since, I would like to point out two books, that tells a lot about Ford History outside the US.
To keep it Model T related there is the relatively new book about "The English Model T": http://tuckettbrothers.co.uk/Model%20Ts/Model_T_index.htm
Hap, if you haven't got that already this is a must have for next Birthday/Christmas. That book revealed explanation for a specifically low 1925 Model T touring that drive around on the island Fionia: It is an english Touring - they where 3" lower than the US tourings.
Then there is another UK book: Sam Roberts book about how Ford started up in UK (Niel have a lot about that too) and how Henry was persuaded that Europe needed smaller cars (engine) than the US models. It is mentioned here on the Ford Y&C Model register how to get it:
http://www.fordyandcmodelregister.co.uk/pages/Book_Offer.htm

Finally we where lucky, that the ultimate Eifel expert, German Wolfram Düster managed to do a "braindump" before he passed away. The challenge when researching Ford in Germany is, that some airplanes dropped a lot of things that destroyed the Ford Werke in Cologne (with the rest of the country) so all archives are lost. However - many dealers had material of various kind and Wolfram had collected a lot of automobilia over the years.
The book is in German, but there are lot of pictures.
http://www.fordyandcmodelregister.co.uk/pages/Book%20Review%20Eifel.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 04:22 am:

To Manuel, if thats what you want to be called, yes there are a few early English fords out here and there is one in Victoria that I know of and seen photos only and it is reputed to have the very early Canadian C number on it. We received many English repair books/manuals for the Ts and A's and a lot of other cars as it was a hub for manuals and printing but I have never seen a English Model T hand book/owners manual as I had 2 or 3 for each year from 1912 till I started selling off my items but I did have a French one and a Japanese one but the photos where the same but could not read them so I sold them. We did not need the English fords out here till after the war as Ford had a plant in Victoria in 1926 and New South Wales in 1932 or 33 if my memory serves me correctly and for South Australia, David can fill in those details as he wrote the book on that state. I remember the English ford and other cars after 1950 and they where not the best on the market when one could have a Pilot, Custom and Customline which was built on the Canadian model and the range of Chevrolet vehicles that where really an Australian only design then there was the General Motors Holden on the scene. I remember the 1951 model dad purchased and waited 6 or 7 months to get and stacked it 10 minutes later through our front fence but we have gotten well away from what this thread was about so I think we should move back and find more early T info.... Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 04:32 am:

To John, New Zealand did end up with some vehicles that we did not and I never understood why but it came down to the government of the day here and there and owners kept their cars going much longer than the Company's expected of us which was a reason that so many old cars have survived between us. ... Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 08:41 am:

Ray,

English Model T Fords did not have engines made in Canada. If you find such a thing it means the engine was swapped out some time in the past.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 09:29 am:

Ok Royce, if that what is to be but we should ask a member of the club in Victoria if they know the car and can check the engine in it as I was told it was engine C23 or close to that as they sit and watch this forum... Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 10:19 am:

Hey there Royce, I have never taken time to inspect the engines in the English cars while I was there and many of them were US imports at the rallies I was at but I will take your word that they are but I did say....
"and it is REPUTED to have the very early Canadian C number on it"
not that I really worry whats in the English cars but next time I am in England I will look and come back to you on it as my interest is the vehicles shipped out to here and where they came from..Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 04:11 pm:

Ray,
Ford of Canada supplied the Model T to the domestic (Canada) market, and all of the British Commonwealth, except Britain. Ford of England (later to become Ford of Britain) was a business in it's own right, and was a subsidiary of Ford - US, not Canada.
Over time, Britain manufactured more and more of their own content. Quite possibly examples of odd bits and pieces have probably been mixed up and from these evolve new questions. But these mix ups are not the norm.
Thankfully there is some very well-researched reading available now, such as the English Model T book. And, as Hap quite correctly points out, the open availability of the internet offers an extraordinarily opportunity to exchange ideas and questions and, thankfully, knowledge.
John Stokes
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 04:25 pm:

Here is a little more monthly detail on Canadian Ford numbers, at least for 1919. Appears to list the numbers in 'model year' sequence. So a '1918' Canadian Ford, for example, would have engine numbers from C-170001 to C-208500.



Source: Ford Owner and Dealer, page 29, June, 1920


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 05:04 pm:

INFORMED KNOWLEDGE?

Maybe this should be a new thread?

While on the subject of sharing 'informed knowledge' I actually believe all those who are given the opportunity to write or document history have a responsibility to 'get it right'.

As Henry Ford himself said "If you must tell all that you know, be sure that you know all that you tell."

I am reminded of an article that appeared around 18 months ago here in New Zealand, in the Vintage Car Club magazine 'Beaded Wheels'. This magazine is a quality publication, but relies on good-will contributors. It is distributed to VCC members and to the public via book stores.

"Beaded Wheels" published a feature on the centenary of the Model T. Amongst the feature was a substantial item said to have been reproduced from a science magazine of 1908 - the reporter, Clark Kent, was sent off to the New York Ford distributor, "Peabody and Company" to check out the new car from Ford. The reproduced report talked about Peabodys and reviewed the brand new Model T.

This caused a minor panic with me!

In one New Zealand publication on the early Ford subject, it had been erroneously stated that Peadbodys was the New York Ford dealer that supplied the New Zealand market with Fords, up until The Colonial Motor Company took over in 1911. However, there was nothing to confirm Peabodys was a Ford agent in New York, or anywhere else. There had already been some discussion, including on this forum and amongst Model T club members in NZ, about what role Peabodys played in Ford's history.

As it turned out, Peabodys was an export agent, based in New York. That company still exists as an export agent - and it has never sold cars.

And then the article appeared in "Beaded Wheels", written in language that was appropriate for the time, and it all looked very authentic. Except for one thing - the name Clark Kent.

When I questioned the author, he was quick to admit that he had invented the item.

In my view, the creation of that article for publication in a magazine of "Beaded Wheels" quality was nothing but irresponsible.

I say that because it may easily be used at a future time as evidence to support an erronious argument.

To my knowledge, "Beaded Wheels" has not printed a clarification in a subsequent edition. Of course it is easy to correct a mistake in a magazine by printing something in the next edition. But it is not so easy in a book!

And who was Clark Kent? He was 'Superman'!

At the opening of my manuscript are Henry's words... "If you must tell all that you know, be sure that you know all that you tell."

John Stokes
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 05:52 pm:

Well said mr. Stokes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Manuel Voyages on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 07:48 pm:

Good morning folks,
Ray, my name is Manuel and I live in the ACT.
Dan, do u have any further listings of Canadian Fords?
John, I'm with u. I have seen one or 2 of those NZ car mags over here. They advertise in Restored Cars mag [that's the Aussie old car mag].
U would think they should have clearly labelled the story as Fiction.
Have a good day boys.
Manuel in Oz


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 08:01 pm:

Dan's list is well publicised and well used down here...and has the same age old problem. We all date cars on a calendar year (January - December), not fiscal. If a 1910 model was built in 1909 it would be dated as a 1909, just ask the owners of these cars.

A 1918 Canadian Ford dated by calendar year would more accurately be from about C95,700 -C141,400. The fiscal numbers are useless for calendar dating so I made a calendar table, admittedly with lots of assupmtions like actual production days per month etc., but I have found it far more user friendly than the widely published fiscal numbers. Dave C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 08:35 pm:

David

Tend to agree on the 'dating' of a Ford, but have to express my thinking is that Ford and the buying public wanted a 'new' car each year, as did all other auto mfg. Even the big car shows of the time announced the new 1909...or the "new for 1910" in publications and announcements.

So to date a Ford, I really use the 'model year' method, that Ford bought out the new model year to match the start of each fiscal year....so a new 1926 Improved Ford, was first delivered, sold, and titled as a 1926 as of Aug 1, 1925. There would be no one back then who would have purchased a Ford in Sept, Oct, Nov, or Dec of 1925 and called or titled their Ford as a 1925....it would and should be a 1926, even if mfg in 1925 calendar year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Manuel Voyages on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 10:26 pm:

That's always confused me [and lots of other people]. If something {eg a car} is made in 2010 then its a 2010 model. That is its DOB.
I know that in some parts of the world with severe winters, spring brings all the new models, but here if its made in 2010 u are not allowed to advertise or title it as a 2011. It could be seen as false advertising etc.
I would also like to thank Michael for those T, Y and Eifel links which I haven't had a chance to look at yet.
Cheers,
Manuel in Oz


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, May 16, 2010 - 12:43 am:

Manuel,

If you go to a Ford dealer today, they are having final closeout sales of 2010 Fords. The 2011 Fords start arriving at dealers in June or July.

This is eaxactly what has been the case since 1908. The Fords made in fall of 1908 were 1909 model year cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Sunday, May 16, 2010 - 06:06 am:

Royce,
That is true in the US, but not down under! Or in Britain. Those markets were/are just too small to keep up the annual model changes that go on in the 'States. So one year typically runs into the next and quite often - correctly or incorrectly - cars are dated by the year of first registration (and they may be identical to the year before and/or the year after).
John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Sunday, May 16, 2010 - 06:22 am:

Hi Royce, reading this last entry is where all American thinking fall out with the rest of the world, what happens in the Detroit USA dose not mean that it will happen here as June, July and August, it is winter here and really we are not interested in new cars, spring is September, October and November and when the car sales start and as David said using the 1929 model A built in December and the same car built in January 1930 as a example, under the rules set down by the Vintage car movement here, the same car built in January 1930 is not a vintage car even through it is the same as 1929, the only saving grace for the 1930 model is that the Model A club would be the only ones to accept it as it is what is known as 30-40 era. and in no mans land.
Even using Manuals statement, if its made in 2010 you are not allowed to advertise or call it as a 2011. It would be seen as false advertising and the transport Departments have the finial say.
One Finial thing that I have to say is that due to things happening in my family and the lengthy travel involved and a major Tour I have entered in six days time, I will not be part of any other discussions unless I am near a Computer and that is unlikely, bye for now... Ray
PS to David, I will be in touch to explain why.. Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Sunday, May 16, 2010 - 03:15 pm:

My Volkswagen Lupo 3L is definately a 2004 model (can be determined from the serial number) but was bought in September 2003.
So when I eventually sels it to a used car dealer, it will be a year 2003 so the price will be low. Once I'll see it on display it wiull be a 2004 model and hence more expensive :-)
But Denmark is also on the northern hemisphere as Detraoit :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Sunday, May 16, 2010 - 04:40 pm:

Michael,

Thank you so much for the recommendations for additional books. That is one way I find out about them.

And if folks have Canadian engine blocks -- please let us know the data they have -- serial number (last 3 can be xxx), casting date, type of freeze plugs, what is cast into the side (Made in ???) etc.

Respectfully,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ronald Bolser on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 05:37 pm:

My engine serial number in my 1925 Huckster wagon is C-952526
Other Castings on drivers side of block:
To left of water outlet (upside down R 17)
To right of water outlet a small circle pattern with a 6 on top and 21 21 on bottom of circle.

Bottom of Block drivers side: Ford
Made in USA

Passenger side ( upside down R).

Anyone have an idea of the year of manufacture on this one?
The huckster was assembled in 1998.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 05:57 pm:

Dear Ron,

The obvious issue is Canadian production stopped around C715,000 with spare engines and blocks being made to about C748,000 (give or take few). Your number falls outside of the well publicised numbers range and appears to be not original. Your casting date is 21st June 1921 so in theory your engine should be around the C300,000 (mid 1921) - C323,000 range. Dave C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ronald Bolser on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 11:22 pm:

Dave,
I just took some pics and the number is definatly C-952526.
It appears that the serial number area has never been ground down and restamped.
I am a 3 week old T owner newbie and don't know why someone would go to all the trouble to fake an engine serial number that you have shown never existed. I'll try to get you a picture tomorrow.

Ron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 04:29 am:

Dear Ron,

Thanks for the email. I don't think it is Canadian, the font and spacing is incorrect. Upon closer inspection of your photo I think your block is a rebuild of USA 1915 engine #952,526 and they have stamped on the original number, as was the practice of the day when the blcok was replaced. Ford supplied blcoks without any engine numbers for this purpose. I am thinking that the C is a prefix for "conditioned" or "reconditioned" etc. Dave C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 08:14 am:

Hi John Stokes and anyone else interested.

Found a printed reference- in the June 1921 Ford Owner and dealer. Page 50.

Don't think its the exact one I was thinking ofas it doesn't mention the heated area of the factory but as it basically says what I thought it will do. By the way I started looking at Jan 1921 and found it when I got to June. I was settling down to a long search. Normally Its in the last book you look at. (think I might buy a lottery ticket.) I'll look further.

The list adds to Dan Trease's list by adding
Aug 1919 to July 1929 .........C208501 to C262500
April 1921 ..........C291500.

It then says!

"While we at first intended to give a monthly list of Canadian Ford motor numbers we found this to be impractical and thought it might be misleading. Canadian Ford Motor numbers are not turned out exactly in numerical order, due to the fact that at certain seasons of the year large numbers of the motors are manufactured and stored. and then the motors that were manufactured and stored last are used first. However by taking the yearly figure the results are practically accurate as few motors are stored around August of each year."

This article is a follow up from Dan's 1920 one and it appears that extra research was done at the time to varify the records. Its seems that Canada even then only kept loose records so Herm Smiths version probably was fabricated a bit.

John I never came in contact with Sandy Notorelli he must have taken over when Herm retired.

One more thing I saw today a 1918 cast Canadian block with Ford made in Canada on it so we may be able to push the date back a little. I have photo's and when I work out again how to post them I will pass them on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Long on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 08:57 am:

Hi,

My '27 has C726099 stamped with casting mark 7 1 E(7th Jan '27?)
I don't know if this will help,but according to the list above it seems accurate'ish'

The motor is not from my '27 originally.I found it in SA a few years back and it had the speedo worm wheel installed on the transmission,which I hadn't seen before.I've never seen another with an 'E' on the cast-mark before either.

Anyway,I hope this helps the record-keeping in some small way.

Regards,

Gavin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ronald Bolser on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 09:01 am:

Dave,
Thanks for the info on that it may be a 1915 rebuild theory, but I thought you said it had a June 21,'21 (6 / 21 / 21) casting date on it. I am still confused, but I am a newbie to this.

I now understand what you are saying that there is the possibility that a new factory block (with a
June 21,'21 casting date) was used to rebuild a 1915 engine and that the 1915 serial number was stamped on the new unstamped block. Makes sense to me now.
Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 07:49 pm:

Gavin your motor is a 27 the E is the code for 27.

The lettering started in 1923 with A so it goes
A -23
B-24
C-25
D-26
E-27

Ronald if your engine was treated as advised by the Ford Motor Co it would have had its new motor restamped with the old engine number.

The first half of the article I was quoting from goes into great detail at to why this should be done. Ford did not issue extra numbers so if you did not put on the old number the car became a problem.

Mou may not be able to sell or register it without an engine number and if you made up another number it would be of someone elses car so it would be fraud. So it was advised to keep the original number. Obviously this meant that you now had a later made motor block but that could mean you had a new good block not a worn out old one so it wasn't really seen as being bad.

Now it might be as owners want the original motor and everything to be as old as possible as the older it is the more value it may be.

What we are seeing in Australia is cars being faked into older brass cars when they are not.

Only this week a car dealer is advertising a so called 1913 which has a 1922-22 body on it check out the comments he has made on questions about it. And the price is way out there!!
Australia ebay number 320531218930


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Elenbaas on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 10:13 pm:

I have a block cast 1-20-17. It does not anything cast below the Ford logo. What I find interesting is the last digit of the serial # is stamped far below the rest of the digits and almost off the area designed for it to be stamped.
1917 Candian


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Manuel Voyages on Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - 10:10 pm:

If any one is interested there is an English Model T manual on Aus ebay at the moment.

Item number: 200473438641

Cheers
Manuel in Oz


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