There have been a number of threads on this forum that centered around the value of a particular T. My question: is there a "standard" source to estimate value based on make, model, year, condition, etc. for old cars like the Kelly Blue Book is for modern cars? If so, where can it be found?

Henry
I think it was Old Cars Weekly?? that published an "Old Cars Price Guide" and had a 1-5 rating system for condition with explanation for each number. As you can well imagine the rating system was subject to the owner and buyers evaluation of the car.
Ron the Coilman

I have found the Old Cars Price Guide to be highly inaccurate, especially for the early brass Ts. The last time I looked, it was listing an early, two lever-two petal, 1909 Touring in #5 condition at $1800. I've been looking for that car ever since.

(Originally posted in 2003 by David Grant Stewart)

Model T Price List

Ignoring the impossibility of such a request, I submit my observations in the hope that they may provide some orientation to some uninitiated soul who would like some
guidance without having to become an expert.

Model T Values - Thumbnail sketch, in United States 48 contiguous states as of Monday 10 March 2003:

Cars and original depot hacks and pie wagons 1917-27:
Parts car only, not restorable: <$1000 (Steve Braymen)
Not complete, restorable with a lot of work, engine may or may not run: $1,000 (Steve Braymen)
Mostly complete, correct, disassembled, restorable: $2,000.
Mostly complete, correct, recently assembled, restorable: $2,500.
Complete, correct, never disassembled, restorable: $3,500.
Runs, drives, correct, needs total restoration $4,500 (Steve Braymen)
Runs and drives, mostly correct, looks like a 10 year old used car: $6,000.
Everything works, not correct (wrong year engine, etc.), looks decent: $6,000.
Everything works, almost all correct, looks decent: $7,500.
Show room condition, correct, needs nothing functionally or cosmetically: $10,000.
Completely "restored" but with incorrect "upgrades" such as pre-1919 starter, incorrect accessories, etc.: $10,000 but buyers will be a different group than previous item.
Rip van Wrinkle: Car stored inside since new, less than 1000 miles: $20,000.
Complete factory type restoration, every nut and bolt reconditioned, completely correct: Ought to be worth $20,000, but the market will not pay much more than $12,000.

Trucks other than original pie wagons: Deduct 50%.
Depot hacks, reproduction bodies: Deduct 50%.
Speedsters, reproduction bodies: Deduct 50%.
Town cars with original bodies: Add 100%.
Pre-1917: Add $1000 for each year down to 1909.

Body only: 60% of the value of the car.
Chassis only: 40% of the value of the car.

Generally, cars needing total restoration are overpriced because they are a liability, not an asset, and the cost of restoring them far exceeds their finished value. Unfair,
but true. Generally, cars restored with thousands of hours of expert work are under-priced, but no one will pay their true value. Unfair, but true.



If you want to make money restoring cars, the best way to do it is to buy a car that is complete, original, basically sound, but does not run. Spend 50 hours and $500 on it
fixing only what is broken and give it a nice paint job so that when you're done it runs, everything works, and it looks decent, and advertise it for twice what you paid
for it.

If you want to do it right [partial translation: take everything completely apart], forget about making money. Subsidize it with your regular job. Buy a good working car
to enjoy until you get this one done. It will take longer than you thought. It will cost more than you thought.

It is impossible to restore any part without complete dismantling. You never know what you have until you take it apart.

Caution: For any car that has been "restored" request a photographic record of each stage, and information on the experience, background, and motivation of the restorer.
The word means ten different things to ten different people.

David Grant Stewart, Sr
Evergreen, Colorado

Henry,

While not a perfect guide (one does not exist to my knowledge) I’ve found the “Old Cars Price Guide” helpful in deciding what I should pay or ask for a car. While they are no longer being produced, the author now has the information in an updated book: “20xx Collector Car Price Guide” where xx is 09, 10, or 11 soon to be released and it is available from book dealers such as Amazon (see: http://www.amazon.com/2010-Collector-Car-Price-Guide/dp/0896899713/ref=sr_1_1?ie =UTF8&s=books&qid=1274902716&sr=1-1-spell ). Their estimates for some of the early Ts especially the 1909-1910s appear low to me, but they all indicate they cost more than the later Ts. So the trend is correct.

For any given car antique car the price often varies considerably. It really does come down to how much one person is willing to pay and another person is willing to sell the car for. In some cases – such as my own – you would have a hard time (i.e. you would have to offer much more than it is worth to the average person) to purchase my 1915 cut off. I don’t need or want to sell it. If you had one that was virtually identical to it, for sale for $500 I would not purchase it. The parts would probably be worth that, but I already have more projects than I need and unlike the 1915 I am attached to, the other identical T is not the first car I ever drove etc. ( for a sappy story about Blackie see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/10844.html ) If I’m hit by a bolt of lightening today and my wife puts it up for sale on e-bay – I would recommend don’t purchase it unless you want a project.

See also the general discussion at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/16385.html about determining the value of Ts.

Another thread had the following posted – but I cannot locate the thread anymore – but this part was reprinted in one of the local club’s newsletter the “Flatland Tribune” Feb 2009.


HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU HEARD A REQUEST LIKE THIS?….
I am completely new to Model T's and have run across a restored 1919 Model T truck. I think it is a one ton. It has a flat bed body with wood stake side. The spokes are wood and it has the original 4-cylinder engine. It runs, starts, and drives well. My question is, what is it worth? The owner is asking $12,500. I need some knowledgeable assistance to negotiate, a need to know what others think. Of course, I realize that the real value is in its value to me, but I need some pointers. Help…Please! Bill 1/25/09.
Here is a response from Hap Tucker via the MTFCA Forum…
Bill,

1. I would think $12,500 for a 1919 Model TT would be higher than most folks would value a TT. If it has some exceptional accessories, such as a period overhead valve cylinder head or Hemco accessory transmission cover, and is restored to a very high standard or is documented as some important historical truck then it might be more than $12,500. But in general – I don’t recall seeing many TT trucks advertised for $12,500 and folks saying – darn, I just missed it.

2. I generally recommend that folks purchase a Model T NOT as a financial investment but as an investment in fun and meeting folks with similar interest. While old cars in general tend to hold there value and go up -- you don't want to be disappointed if they do not. The 1970’s muscle cars were appreciating a lot more the last time I checked the old car market. The Model T’s appreciate some but I anticipate more and more of them will be coming up on the market as the "Greatest Generation" passes away. I know my Dad's cars would have been sold if I had not wanted them. I'm sort of emotionally attached to them -- most of the ones I have a NOT a great financial investment -- but they do have a lot of great memories.

3. I would recommend you not rush into purchasing a Model T or Model TT truck before you have had a chance to look at several that are for sale and had a chance to ride in and drive a few. A short ride in a few vehicles will give you a lot better feel for how they perform. The words slow (T) and slower (TT) come to mind. How you plan to use the vehicle should have a big impact on what type of vehicle you want.

3. a. Based on your future plans – if you primarily want to trailer the vehicle to parades and then drive the T or TT in the parade – the TT with the lower gearing and room to put displays, float riders, etc. on the back might be the better choice. But again…

3. b. If you want to drive a distance more than 30 miles, the T will serve you a lot better. Both are considered hard riding antiques compared to modern cars. We had a club member that loved his 1912 touring but as he grew older and his arthritis got worse, he stopped enjoying riding in his T because it physically was uncomfortable. And a TT is even a stiffer ride than a T.

3.c. If you want something to “putt” around the neighborhood either would work fine (I’m assuming a low speed traffic neighborhood and not one with lots of 45 mph drivers). If you have a farm and want to haul stuff the TT is the better choice.

3. d. If you are single and don’t want to take other people for rides, a single seat racer body works great. If you have 4 grand kids and you want to take all of them at one time then a touring, depot hack, or sedan (they had different versions), or town car would be a better choice. You can pile them all in the back of the truck bed – but depending on the kids and how high the sides are – it is often nicer to have a seat with a door helping to keep them all in.

3. e. An enclosed car is nice if the weather is bad – but do you plan to drive your T when the weather is bad? If not – then that probably isn’t as high a priority as if you were going to drive it in the sleet and snow.

3. f. Are you a good woodworker? Then a chassis with a wooden speedster, depot hack etc. might be just the thing for you. Jay Cramer at Wagon Works sells plans for wooden depot hacks etc including one for the TT chassis. He can be reached at Wagonwork2@aol.com. Also the vendors have depot hack and truck type bodies for the T

3.g. Do you want something that will keep up with modern traffic or at least get out of the way of modern traffic? If so a modified engine and better brakes with a light chassis (speedster or roadster) would be something to consider.

4. In general I would recommend joining the local T club, see what the different cars and trucks are like. Let them know what you are looking for. Don’t get in a hurry, they made 15,000,000 plus T’s and they come up for sale often compared to 1908 Model S Coupes that they made approximately 28 of. If you have the choice between a new model that drives nice and an older model that needs lots of work – I would suggest the newer one that drives nice. You can enjoy it, learn a lot from it, and if you decide you want to obtain an early car or truck you can do that and either sell the first one or “ta-dah”, you have two Model Ts now. And in general for a first T I would recommend a T over a TT unless you have a compelling reason to choose the TT. The T in general is easier to park in a normal garage, takes up less room, and is easier to obtain parts for (the engine and transmissions are the same in both the T &TT but body parts, frame, rear wheels, rear axle, etc. are different).

5. Below is a posting I copied from David Grant in 2003, which gives a good summary of Model T Prices: Ignoring the impossibility of such a request, I [David] submit my observations in the hope that they may provide some orientation to some uninitiated soul who would like some guidance without having to become an expert. Model T Values - Thumbnail sketch, in United States 48 contiguous states as of Monday 10 March 2003:
Cars and original depot hacks and pie wagons 1917-27:
Parts car only, not restorable: <$1000
Not complete, restorable with a lot of work, engine may or may not run: $1,000
Mostly complete, correct, disassembled, restorable: $2,000.
Mostly complete, correct, recently assembled, restorable: $2,500.
Complete, correct, never disassembled, restorable: $3,500.
Runs, drives, correct, needs total restoration $4,500
Runs and drives, mostly correct, looks like a 10 year old used car: $6,000.
Everything works, not correct (wrong year engine, etc.), looks decent: $6,000.
Everything works, almost all correct, looks decent: $7,500.
Show room condition, correct, needs nothing functionally or cosmetically: $10,000.
Completely "restored" but with incorrect "upgrades" such as pre-1919 starter, incorrect accessories, etc.: $10,000 but buyers will be a different group than previous item.
Rip van Wrinkle: Car stored inside since new, less than 1000 miles: $20,000.
Complete factory type restoration, every nut and bolt reconditioned, completely correct: Ought to be worth $20,000, but the market will not pay much more than $12,000.
Trucks other than original pie wagons: Deduct 50%
Depot hacks, reproduction bodies: Deduct 50%
Speedsters, reproduction bodies: Deduct 50%
Town cars with original bodies: Add 100%
Pre-1917: Add $1000 for each year down to 1909.
Body only: 60% of the value of the car. Chassis only: 40% of the value of the car.

Generally, cars needing total restoration are overpriced because they are a liability, not an asset, and the cost of restoring them far exceeds their finished value. This is unfair, but true. Generally, cars restored with thousands of hours of expert work are under-priced, but no one will pay their true value. Again, it’s unfair, but true. If you want to make money restoring cars, the best way to do it is to buy a car that is complete, original, and basically sound, but does not run. Spend 50 hours and $500 on it fixing only what is broken and give it a nice paint job so that when you're done it runs, everything works, and it looks decent, and advertise it for twice what you paid for it. If you want to do it right (partial translation: take everything completely apart), forget about making money. Subsidize it with your regular job. Buy a good working car to enjoy until you get this one done. It will take longer than you thought. It will cost more than you thought. It is impossible to restore any part without complete dismantling. You never know what you have until you take it apart. Caution: For any car that has been "restored" request a photographic record of each stage, and information on the experience, background, and motivation of the restorer. The word means ten different things to ten different people.

6. Additionally there are price guides that can give you some ideas of what cars and trucks have been selling for. Also look at the cars that have been selling on e-bay; MTFCA swap shop http://mtfca.com/showit1/index.html ; Model T Haven http://www.modelthaven.com/cars1.html ; The Horseless Carriage Club website http://www.hcca.org/sellit.html ; and Hemmings Motor News http://www.hemmings.com/ has lots of Model T’s listed for sale every month. The TT trucks are under the truck section and the Model Ts are at the beginning of the Ford section under the “F” section of cars for sale.

Good luck with your search and decision. Feel free to join the next local meeting – you will see a lot of cars and often times trucks and be able to make a better judgment about what you like.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring, cut-off and made into a pickup truck & l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter, SC.

Thomas -- thanks for posting that reference -- I should have looked before I hit post.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring, cut-off and made into a pickup truck & l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter, SC.

It is interesting what an early Model T might be worth, not restored, but "all there."
Here are some advertised prices:

Complete 1910 engine with correct parts: $12,500 (carb.?)
Rear end & shaft - correct (probably with tapered axels: $4,500
Frame: $1,200
1910 Finder irons, correct rears: 600
Steering column & wheel: 500
Set of wheels & hubs (rear tapered) 500
Original touring body - good but as is: 4,500
Fenders - reproductions about: 1,000
Top irons - old or repro: about: 500
Head lights: 1,000
Model JB 60s or nice E&J 500
Tail light common E&J not JB60s 300
Wood coil box and correct coils (hard to find) 800
Radiator: Original 1910 or reproduction 1000
Misc.: 500

I come to just under$30,000. and that does not include $1000 for a 5 ball carb.
A restored 1910 as original have been in the $40,000 range with a 1909 at $50,000. $15,000 would go pretty fast when restoring a 1909 or 10 Model T.

Just my comments.

As ususal, you guys have more information than I hoped for.

THANKS TO ALL!!!