Does anyone remember if the location for the 1915 -1916 ID patent plate has been posted and if so what it was or where it was posted? I.e. how far up and over from the top inside steering column hole or some other reference?

And does anyone know when did Ford switch from the 1915-1916 style Patent Plate to the next style that was used in the 1917-1918 cars?

Craig ask me that question about his early Jul 1916 car and I am having troubles finding the information on my computer or the forum.

Below is a picture of Jim Cook's Oh Henry (from memory -- an early 1916 sold in Oct 1915) from the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/54716.html?1209848159



I believe that tag is in the correct location (i.e. he used the original firewall but he decided he liked the natural color better than black.). And yes, if a late 1916 still had that tag the number area would have been left blank -- but I don't know when they switched to the next style tag and if it was before they went to the black radiator firewall -- was the new tag in the same location as the previous 1915-1916 tag?

And yes, there could have been some overlap when Ford continued to use both tags -- he didn't throw things away.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

Hap Tucker:

My patent plate on my August 20th 1916 was to the right of the coil box and your right the vin number was left blank. I have a very small set of number punches and put the motor number in the blank.

Dave,

Thank you for posting. For those that do not remember, your car is a very early black radiator 1917 year model touring. Bruce states that the 1917 model year was introduced in Aug 1916 and your car would have been one of the first of the 1917 models. That it was still using the 1915 -1916 style Patent Plate is a good indication that it was still used in Jul 1916 also. Of course with one data point – it might be possible that the other plate may have been used during that time also. But hopefully we will gain more data about both types of plates and their locations.

Again thank you for posting.

Respectfully,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

According to the 1915/1916 dash drawing the patent plate was located above the steering column until Feb of 1919 when it moved to the right of the coil box. The patent plate was located correctly by 2 pilot holes that I am fairly certain were TOP holes but in any event they were 3-7/16 apart. I will located the top right hole only and I am referring to the right/left as driver's right/left as he sits in the car. I will reference the holes with respect to the top right steering column mounting hole rather than the coil box mounting hole since the coil box itself moved down 1/4" on 10/7/14 but the steering column mounting hole locations remained unchanged on this style dash. The dash was drawn on 8/7/14 and at that time the patent plate was shown at 2-31/32 up and 13/32 to the right of the top right steering column mounting hole. On 12/4/14 the pilot holes moved to 3-25/32 up and 1-11/32 to the right of the same steering column mounting hole. On 10/28/15 the pilot holes moved 1/16" to the left to thus be 3-25/32 up and 1-9/32 to the right of the steering column mounting hole.

I just made a dash for a fellow with an early 1915 T. This was a very original car but the dash was falling apart and it had been covered with sheet metal to replace the wood veneer but otherwise the dash was original. It was one of the earliest 3/4" thick dashes used in early 1915 but redrilled in Mar of 1915. It was a complicated research but it turned out that we could account for every change in the dash with the exception of some obvious home made holes. The edge only of the dash was rabeted to 11/16 thick and I finally broke down and bought a custom router bit to do the coumpound radius and angle cut of the edge. It was a challenging research project and there simply does not exist any cutter bits to put that weird 1915/1916 edge on correctly.

RE: patent plate partially obscured by cowl

The upper left hand corner of patent plate on my unrestored May 1917 roadster is partially obscured or "clipped" by the cowl. See the picture below.

My father and I recently replaced the dashboard on his July 1917 touring utilizing the factory drawing (unfortunately, my dad replaced and discarded the original dashboard in 1950). In addition to my roadster and the factory drawing, we also have another original 1917 dashboard in our parts inventory to use as a reference.

Per the original drawing, the correct location for the patent plate causes the upper left hand corner to be obscured by the cowl. Recently, there was a picture of an unrestored 1915 touring sold at auction showing the same obscured patent plate. Likewise, I recently looked an 1916 Ford with its original firewall that also shows this correct location with the obstruction.

I think it is interesting that Ford failed to pick up on this and neglected revise the drawings so the plate would be located lower and closer to the steering column so it would not be partially obscured by the cowl.

My father, who is usually a purist, decided he did not like the correct location of the plate and moved it lower on his replacement dashboard so it would not be obscured.

What is even stranger is that if you lower it 13/16 from where you see it in the picture above then you would have it where it was originally placed when they drew up the dash drawing and it would be fine??? First they moved it UP by 13/16 then moved it LEFT br 1/16. Weird but your car proves the dash drawing dimensions were followed, I could understand their moving it up a wee bit to get more room around the steering column flange... I suspect the real issue was getting enough working room to hammer in the escutcheon pins that hold the plate on since the plate was part of the dash subassembly and all of the dash components are often shown together at subassembly time.

Erik:

Is there any way to confirm the presence or absence of the hidden escutcheon pin? I just wonder if el cheapo Henry noticed he could save a pin by letting the body hold the upper corner in place. Silly - but he did stuff like that.

John,

That would not surprise me if that's why they did it.

I was reading in a book (forget which one now), anyways it was talking about cutting production costs and how if they eliminated one washer from the chassis it would save $400K a year- that sort of thing.

Here is a picture of my original dash Feb 1915 touring. Look close and you can see the nail holes for the data plate. Leon

John,

Thank you so much for the great details on where the pilot holes were located. Also the odd shape of the 1915 “rabeted edge” on the firewall. Thanks also to all who posted photos and shared information. From what has been shared so far, I think it is safe to say that a USA produced Model T from 1915 up through Feb 1919 placed the Patent Tag on the steering column side of the coil box. There most likely would have been some overlap when the main assembly plant at Highland Park switched to the new style but some of the branches were still using up the old style dash/firewalls. And for that matter – nailing it on the other side probably would not have been that hard if they really wanted to change before they used up all the old firewalls. But for Craig’s Jul 1916 it clearly would have been on the USA driver’s side using John’s 10/28/15 change card note distance (see John’s 11:04 AM posting).

Still remaining is to determine which style Patent Plate should be used. Erik – looking at the picture you posted I believe your Dad’s May 1917 car has the Patent Plate that does NOT have the “blank area for the car number” and that it is made from a brass like metal. But hey – I wear tri-focal glasses and you know for sure. Would you please confirm or correct what I think I saw? Thanks!

Some Patent Plate information taken from Lang’s web site and also a MTFCI posting that no longer works but used to be at: at http://www.modeltforum.org/cgi-bin/webbbs/webbbs_config_512.pl?read=93874 . That posting is available for review at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/54716.html?1209848159
and go down to the second “word document” upload (the first one doesn’t work properly).

Lang’s part #1865D listed as 1913-1916 and I think that is correct see http://www.modeltford.com/i/c/78l.jpg The question would be what time frame did it change to the next style? Apparently the early 1915 cars and those before the earlier 1915 cars had the car number stamped on the tag while the later 1915 and on cars that used that style left the “number pad” blank. Note after 1911 the engine number on USA cars was no longer the same as the car number. [Note for Ford Canada Model T Patent Plates – the motor number agreed with the car number through 1915 and for several more years.] The same tag was continued in the USA and the “number area” was left blank. Jim Cook’s Oct 1915 still in the same family car’s original Patent Tag had the area but was blank.

Below are some original patent plates of a similar style that were posted by Darel Leipold who listed them as 1913-1914 and possibly 1915. Since that 2005 posting we know they go into 1915 and are trying to determine how much further they went. Due to the copyright statement in the Lang’s Catalog I have only provided a link to their picture [which is a great picture!]. Note even with the originals – there are minor variations – notice the “UNDER AND EMBODIES UNITED STATES PATENTS ISSUED” is different along with the distance from the edges etc. Probably different suppliers or times?. The Lang’s reproduction appears to be more similar to the top original than the bottom original tag.



In the 9/25/2005 posting, a MTFCI forum member stated they thought the Lang’s 1913-1916 ID tag was wrong because it had a 1916 patent date listed. And they would post a photo of that incorrect patent plate later. No photo was ever posted and I suspect that they really were referring to the next patent plate shown below that has a May 26, 1914 [not 1916 – but they may have remembered the 6 from 26] patent date added and that removed the blank area for the Car number to be stamped.

That is also the same basic patent plate as Lang’s part #1865E listed as 1917-1918 http://www.modeltford.com/i/c/79l.jpg which and removed the blank area for the car number. Note from Lang’s it is offered in Brass. But Darel Leipold reproduced them in aluminum -- we would assume that his original he worked from was also aluminum. Perhaps different suppliers and/or at different times the same supplier offered it both in brass and in aluminum? Have others seen original tags in either brass or aluminum? Below is a REPRODUCTION Darel Leipold created back in the 1950s and posted in that 9/25/2005 MTFCI posting. It is very similar to the Lang’s reproduction except the Lang’s is done in brass and Darel’s was done in aluminum and Darel listed it as 1916-1919.



Lang’s part #1865F is listed for 1919 to 1925 and is shown at: http://www.modeltford.com/i/c/80l.jpg And Darel’s 1950’s reproduction along with an original is shown from his 9/25/2005 MTFCI posting. This would have been the style that was introduced when the Patent Plate was shifted to the choke side of the coil box.



For size comparison, below are the two reproductions that Darel Leipold created back in the 1950s and posted in 2005.



Note that either tag would fit the same “pilot holes” in the dash. So now I have two remaining questions. How many other original tags like the reproductions shown above have been brass and how many have been aluminum? And is there any apparent pattern due to date or location? (I.e. the Firestone loose lug wheels are much more common near Minnesota than some other areas). And again approximately when did Ford USA switch from the tag with the “blank area for the car number” to the tag with out the “blank area for the car number?”

Again, thank you all for putting on your Sherlock Holmes’ hats and helping us track this down a little more. Yes it probably changed in 1916 or 1917 but it would be nice to know approximately which month(s) and year.

Respectfully requested,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring [without any Patent Plate] cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

It is getting late and once again I am losing the picture resizing battle. The tags should be about the same up until the 1919 to 1925 when it becomes wider and less tall. The Lang's links show the correct size relationships.

Hap

Thank you Hap and everyone else for helping with my question.
Craig

Craig,

You are welcome. And “ditto” what Craig said, “Thank you to everyone for helping!

Hopefully some day we will get a little more information on when they switched from the Patent plate tag with the "blank area for the serial number" to the Patent Plate tag without a "blank for the serial number." Since the tags fit the same hole/location, the dash board changes do not help us determine the date (or more likely time frame of a few weeks to a few months) that the later tags began being used and the earlier tags were phased out.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

My October '17 Touring had the original patent plate located the same as Erik Johnson's photo. Just to add one more piece of data.

Correction: October '16 production date, '17 model. Getting crosseyed working weekends.