Now that my 24 Tudor is back together and I can drive it now... I was wondering about how to know if the motor is running too hot?

I have a Motor Meter on the Radiator cap. And I know that inside the clear circle is normal operating range. But, the top of the circle is the top of the scale.

I took it for a short drive around the block this morning. Maybe 10 mins. And by the end of my trip it was at the top and it sounded like the water was bubbling in the rad when I turned it off.

I was driving on mostly level roads with the spark advanced and the throttle 1/2 to 2/3 most of the time.

I have put a sort of make-shift overflow bottle in so that it catches spend coolant and sucks it back in when it cools. It holds about a quart. When the gauge tops out the bottle is filled and I do loose a little more.

Does it sound like it is overheating?
I was planning on putting some Water Wetter in it to see if that might help.

And the car does NOT have an aftermarket water pump.

Add a waterpump and thermostat, and you'll probably never see red in the motometer.

rdr

could be timming, dragging bands, radiator flow.

Hello Brian,

my brother has an 24 Touring and we recently went a shorter 20 mile trip — no overheating. Then he was encouraged to try a 70 mile trip and the thermo-syphon-system did full service.

In my view there are two main points to be observed to avoid overheating:

1st: The trip must not be too short and slow, as the airflow is very essential for cooling.

2nd: The radiator must be free of all chalk and dirt.

My advice: Try to clean the cooling system by adding vingar, Calgon or a similar descaler to its water; run the engine a while and then drain all the cleaning mixture; flush the cooling system with fresh* water; fill the system with fresh* water.

*)Distilled or clear rain water would be optimal.

I like Don Langs point of view with gas tanks and radiators. It can be applied to other items as well. Amoritize the cost over 10 years for the item and be done with it.

First, the engine should make a gugling sound after it is shut off.

Second, the radiator should be filled no higher than the top of the fins when cold. The top tank of the radiator allows for expansion of the coolant when hot.

You can try watter wetter. My experience with that product is that it has no effect on a car that overheats because of a bad radiator.

I am running antifreeze water mixture in the car.
The coolant that is in it now is very clean as I can see.
I might look into adding a water pump, but it would be a last option.

I took it back out for a longer drive today. What I found is that as I am driving at speed, my MotoMeter stays put. It only climbs when I have to stop and start again.

Every time I have to stop at a light or turn onto a different road, it getts a bit hotter when stopped and then it stays put when I get moving again. But the temp doesn't when I am moving. It just keeps creeping up until it is topped out.

I didn't realize that it is not supposed to be completely full. I keep topping it off. I will let it stay where it is at now and see what happens the next time I drive it.

If you are using a coolant recovery bottle you can fill the radiator completely. The water is in touch with the bulb of the Moto Meter giving a more accurate reading. I raised the water level in the radiator with a short piece of hose, just be sure the end does not get blocked. The overflow tank should be at least 3 quarts, a gallon is better. Be sure the cap is sealed to the radiator, I use an "O" ring.

The best 400$ I've ever spend om my model T is a new element in the radiator. I do not know if its flat pipe or rount, but the radiator smith knew what he was doing. Yesterday I drove it in 30 degree Celcius (think it is aroung 90 F) and no overheating or boiling when I stopped.

Brian. Lots of suggestions were given here on how to clean the system and to keep as far advanced as podssible.

When the problem is solved the T wil not get hot. In fact mine is running so cool I am installing a thermostat.

The good running T doesn't gurgle on shut down,. Mine never does. It's been to Pikes Peak and back. I added about 2 quarts of water due to my lack of attention! I never add water on tours!! Ever!! The red alcohol in my MotoMeter runs about 1/4 inch above the bottom most of the time. BTW, fill it up, drive it, and check where the water is. Mine stays about about 1 inch above the tubes.

Use distilled water and antifreeze when you get your problem solved.

I took drastic measures and used hydrochloric pool acid and ate the rust out of my block and head seperately. Then neutralized the components and flushed the engine good, added coolant and whipped her to full speed.

Bottom line, you have a rusty block and/or head, your radiator is deficient or you run without enough advance on your timing.

Best,

Noel

Brian,you need a flat tube radiator and a good coolant flush. That will solve your overheating for good. No need for a water pump. Dave

Everything about "cooling" on these cars is subjective. The variables between cars is almost infinite.
My 27 Tudor with the original engine and thin radiator, generally stayed right at the bottom of the circle on the MotoMeter except in stop and go traffic or long periods of idling, where it would climb to the top of the circle and sometimes make boiling noises when I shut it off.
When I replaced the original engine with a completely rebuilt engine from Gen III and a new Brassworks radiator, (in other words as close as you can get to a like new cooling system), it runs about 1/4 of the way up the MotoMeter on the road and climbs almost to the bottom of the circle during long periods of idling.

Hi Brian, I agree with bill's earlier post and David's. I also had over heating and tried a water pump. That didn't helped. Had the radiator flushed no luck. Finally broke down and bought a new radiator [with modern core] and the over heating is gone! But may I also say running gas mixture to lean will cause it to over heat. Something I learned while I was in my learning curve of being a new T owner. Boy you can't learn enough about these cars! John F.

Most important way to cool the T is a new radiator. Second would be to have the old one completely cleaned and rodded out. The block and head should also be cleaned out and the steam holes in the block and head should be clean. Those are the small holes at the corners and in the center of the block and head. Many times the old radiator fins are loose from the tubes and even though the radiator is clean it will not conduct the heat. If that be the case, either a recore or new radiator is the only fix.

Other than a clean good cooling system, properly advanced spark and fuel adjustment will also help to keep it running cool.

Norm

Here's the factory poop:

Would it be possible to resolder the fins to the core tubes if they were cleaned by some means & heated gentley with a gas torch?

I am going to first try a system flush such as Steve Becker described and see how that works.

What about using a product such as CLR with water in my flush, to loosen deposits and crap in the system?

kep:

The fins were never soldered to the tubes in the first place. Over time dirt and corrosion have removed the physical contact between the tubes and the fins so the radiator simply ceases to function as a heat exchanger. New radiator or recore is the only way to fix it properly. Most original T radiators seem to hold water fine but they just don't cool for the reason mentioned. If you go the re-core route - make absolutely certain that your radiator man has done a T radiator before with success. The problem with re-core is that the radiator must remain absolutely square and flat with all parts in the correct locations or the radiator shroud won't fit right nor will the hood and the headaches really pile up in a hurry. The easy part is making it cool - the hard part is getting the geometry totally correct and most radiator shops are not really quipped that way since most modern radiators have a lot of leeway when it comes to mounting and squareness or flatness. T needs it near perfect.

Brian,Before you shell out big money try and find the actual cause of your problem?? I can tell you for a fact if you spend a lot of money first it may or may not cure what ails your car? My overheating problems i think were cured when i switched to the Anderson Timer but all model T's are not the same! Good luck!! Bud.

Really? Not soldered? i worked in a radiator shop & it was pretty important but those were modern cores not "T" ones (i better look at my radiator closely next time)

I can confirm that the fins on my radiator are not soldered. They are jsut very tightly fit around the tubes. My Radiator appears to be in great condition. At least from the outside.
It is a round tube one.

And I am not about to spend the money for a new radiator or a rebuild if I do not have to.

Are the radiator finns filled with dirt? Are the tubes clean. Does your radiator leak? Are the bands dragging. Make sure the spark is advanced as engine speed is increased. Make sure you have enough oil and the oil lines are not clogged. Make sure the oil is clean. Look for tight parts. Make sure the parking brake is not dragging and do not use the brake too much. Make sure the fan is working and the belt is not slipping.

Stephen

Check, Check and Check...
Exterior of Radiator is Clean. Fins are clean. No leaks. I usually keep the spark advanced nearly all the way when driving. Oil is fresh, just changed it. Oil flow is very good. Parking brake not dragging. Fan is working good.

Another note is that I do live in NY where we have had very hot and humid weather lately.
It was about 85 degrees when I was driving it on Saturday.

Brian: Here is an Alabama radiator story of a friend of mine. He bought a car that was in a basement for about 20 years. We took car home, got it running would not run hot at ilde. Take it out on road, got hot fast. He tried roding, boiling out and every other trick you can think of, no luck. I told him come over take a radiator off one of my cars that I was not using. Fixed problem, he ordered a new Brassworks next day. Bite the bullet and save yourself some time. Thanks, Dan

Fins are stacked on the tubes and a die is then pulled through the tubes to expand against the fin,expansion and contraction over the years cause the fins to pull away from the tubes,it happens to your air conditioners at your home also so after time the efficiency drops.
Rick

Brain,What type of timer are you using? What is the condition of it and your coils? Are you adjusting the fule mixture? Do you have the engine pans on your car? You can hear anything you want about water pumps wheather needed or not but millions were sold?? The new brassworks rad i put on the Grandson's 15 never cooled a bit better than the old one and the neck leaked from the start! If you do buy a new radiator,Save The Shipping Box As you may need it again!! The new flat tube cores are supposed to cool better than the old round tube but for some flat is not a option? What type/brand of fan belt are you using?? Have you tryed the Calgon dishwasher powder flush?? Sorry i ask so many question's with so little help but if i was not already using a Anderson Timer i would check on Frank Fentons site for info! Bud.

The old timers all say the same thing: 1,clean block and radiator. (inside and out) 2,proper spark lever setting. 3, an overfilled rad. will spill water when eng.is shut down. (seeks it's own level) 4, fan belt properly adjusted. (with the blades facing in the right direction)If the above items are OK you MAY have a head gasket problem but check-check-check for free before spending big $

Brian, have you stuck a thermometer in the rad neck to see what temperature the coolant is actually at?

My car, on a hot day, will warm up a bit at each stop light. I don't see this as a problem, as I pulled the rad cap one day when the car was hot, shoved a meat thermometer into the coolant, and saw that the coolant was only 195. My motometer looks pretty, but it isn't too accurate. When I shut my car off, it sounds a bit like a kettle. That sound doesn't really mean its boiling in there. Its just little bubbles of steam forming, and collapsing. Just like when you boil water on the stove, it starts making noise, long before it boils.
Good luck!

One thing not addressed here. What size cylinder bore? I have found that in some cars an extremely oversize bore causes overheating. I don't know the technical reason for this. Maybe the thin cylinder wall allows the heat to go directly into the water instead of spreading throughout the block? Anyway I have in the past had a car with an oversize bore and replaced it with another engine all other parts were not changed and the overheating stopped.
Norm

Brian,

When I got my T it overheated.
A friend that's been into Model T's since he was a kid suggested a couple of things to do.
First make sure the fan isn't slipping.
At low speeds and stops it's all that keeps air flowing through the radiator.
Second he said to use TSP(trisodium phosphate) to flush it.
I used about a gallon of TSP.
Put it in & run it til it's good & warm then drain & rinse.
You may want to remove the petcock to get the rust & crud out that gets loosened.
I did that & put in a 50/50 mix antifreeze/water & now it never gets into the circle on the motometer.

Hope this helps,
Mark

My T has been converted to distributor and coil with 12 volt system so the Timer is not one of the options. I do have to look at fuel mixture, I want to try and richen it a little more after I do the system flush to see if that might make a difference if the flush alone doesn't work.

And Spark advance should not be an issue with me either. I am not driving it around with it retarded. It is only retarded on start up really.

I picked up a bottle of CLR today and I am going to try putting that in with water to see what might get loosened up. I do plan on pulling the pet-cock out when I drain it. I do have to stick a piece of wire up in there to get the coolant out if I have not had it open for a while. So there is some stuff at that point at least.

One thing is for sure, a new rad or recore on mine is not really an option (fiscally) at this point in time. I would rather spend the couple hundred on a water pump and see if that works then dumping a grand on a new radiator.

My 1912 roadster had an old '13 radiator that ran quite hot. The former owner put a water pump on to improve things. It didn't help much. When the radiator developed a pesky leak, I decided to get a new one. It ran so cool, I decided to lose the water pump. It never overheats,and is very happy without the water pump. If the radiator is working properly, water pumps merely provide an extra pulley and another place for coolant to leak from.

Sometimes we look at the wrong end?? I don't think much of [rodding out] a expensive radiator but could a smaller long wire brush be used in a drill motor?? If only in my mind could driveing a rod through cause seperation of fins?? By saying the wrong end a Very Wise Friend say's to cut the unseen bottem tank open to do the cleaning and then bend and solder shutt?? Maby for just a few dollars we could all clean our owne radiator's?? If you have a dizzy i think you could easly check your timeing/advance with a timeing light and use the crank pin/pully for referance?? There was trouble with overheating Fords for over 100 years so it takes time! Good luck,and please tell what you find and do.Bud.

Brian, a couple hundred dollars for a water pump would go a long way toward a recore for your radiator or a good used one. They are out there if you aren't in a hurry. Dave

No, a waterpump won't fix a clogged cooling system.

There were waterpumps aplenty on tbay, last I looked; no need for a new one. $50 should buy a decent one, and even if it leaks, it will tell you whether it's helping. I run a Henry, and with a new stainless shaft and modern seals from Mcmaster.com, it doesn't leak anymore.

My bitch with Thermobarf is not lack of cooling, but uneven cooling. Lots of people have to run expensive X-plugs because #1 cyl runs too cold. Get it hot enough for #1, and #4 is boiling and barfing.

rdr
Waterpump and 180 thermostat; no troubles.

I flushed the system last night. First with Commercial parts store flush and then with a half bottle of CLR. Then flushed clean with fresh water. Each time running it up to temp. I didn't notice too much stuff come out.
On the final flush I I took it out for a couple mile drive with just water in the system.
It seemed not to run too warm. But it was later in the evening when it was cooler out.

I took the hoses off because I am going to replace them and the neck gaskets tonight.
The insides of everything are rough and pitted looking and rust colored, but not really caked with tons of crap. When I stick my finger in and rub the walls, nothing comes loose. My finger just is a little rust colored.

My Radiator really seems to be ok, from the outside at least. All the fins seem very tight on the tubes and there is no damage. The fan seems to be working correctly. When I put my hand to the front of the radiator I can feel the air flow pulling into it.

I will fill the system back up with fresh anti-freeze mixture tonight and see how it goes.
I did also richen my fuel mixture a bit, so maybe that will help. I richened it to the point just before the idle speed wants to drop back down. I figure that should be right.

Maybe your cooling is normal for an old Ford. Here is a simple check to do just after it had been driven until warmed up thoroughly: If thermo"barf" functions as it should, the lower hose = water inlet to the engine should be warm, but not too hot to touch. The water outlet hose on the top should be too hot to touch. Then you have verification the radiator works.

(Btw, I love my infrared thermometer with laser point aim - lots of uses, and they are quite cheap nowadays.)

Well I found my issue!

I took all my hoses and inlet/outlet necks off last night after flushing the system. And I was putting everything back togther with new hoses tonight. When I picked up the upper hose to take the clamps off it, a thermostat fell out of the hose! I couldn't believe it!

Some genious must have thought it a good idea to put a 160 degree thermostat in the upper hose. Must be they didn't think it heated up quick enough.

Needless to say, Henry's Thermosiphon system does not work too well with an 80% restriction in flow at the outlet.

I put everything back together and took it for a fairly long drive and my Motometer stayed near the bottom of the window the whole time.

I am a firm believer that you never know if something is done right unless you do it yourself. Who knows who monkeyed with things before you.

I see there has been talk lately on the forum complaining about people coming on here too much for mechanical fixes. Sorry if I am one of those people. It is just that I am new to T's and am getting used to what is normal and what is not for these cars.

Thanks for your help guys!

The problem is that many T owners both today and when the cars were new get suckered by advertising claims. Thermostats and water pumps don't improve anything on a Model T. It gets proven over and over.

Brian,Thanks for posting what you found! Bud.

I do not use water pumps or thermostats on any of my T's and do not think they are necessary on fairly stock T's........but I understand Ralph's argument on this subject. If you use BOTH I can understand how you COULD get more even cooling. I would think that this is more of a problem on higher compression OHV engines. Due to the restriction, using a thermostat on a T with out a waterpump is asking for it to overheat in MHO. It was 98 in Denver today and I drove my stock 14 to work. The car never got hot enough to show in the motormeter window or even sound like it was boiling, but it has a new Brassworks flat core.

Paul,
Don't mean to get off topic but...who makes that top on your touring? I really like it, much more visibility than the standard top.
Bob

I think I've heard about an accessory deflecting plate to be put in the water inlet on the engine, to direct the incoming cooler water towards the rear, supposedly giving a more even cooling while keeping the thermosyphon action.

If there were such period acessories, I guess they have all rusted out by now.. Anybody seen one who could draw a principle scetch?

Bob,

It is a Cartouche top from Mac's. It has the rollup rear window and in the pictures it is rolled up. I have mixed feelings about it. I spent a lot of time trying to get it right. I thought the instructions that came with it were poor with no photos included of how to do it. The instructions were also generic for any and all years of touring tops. I bought the side curtains for it with the kit and there is absolutely no way to install the Murphy fasteners for the side curtains without butchering the top.
If I knew then what I know now I would have found another supplier for the top.

Paul

Bob,

Here is another view that shows the roll up rear curtain.

Paul Mikeska wrote:

"Due to the restriction, using a thermostat on a T with out a waterpump is asking for it to overheat in MHO."

I had to replace the radiator on my '24 coupe as it had turned into a lawn sprinkler. I bought a Brassworks Flat Tube radiator. The motometer inticated that the engine was running TOO cool! I do not run a waterpump. The red fluid would get only about half way up to the bottom of the circle. I installed a 180 degree thermostat and the fluid now rises to the bottom of the circle and stays there unless I am really flogging the old girl up a steep hill on a hot summer day. During the cold months of the year (yes, I drive it in the winter) I have to cover the bottom of the radiator.

My two cents worth. Your results may vary. Bill

"Some genious must have thought it a good idea to put a 160 degree thermostat in the upper hose."

I have yet to see a thermostat in the hose of a modern car. Well, maybe my old MGTD.. The right place for a thermostat in a T is between the head and the outlet. . That way, it gets full effect of the heat of the head, as well as the water before it has had a chance to cool away from the heat source.

The genius knew what to do, but not how.

rdr

Thank you Paul........