Hard to start only when cold

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: Hard to start only when cold
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Brown on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:06 am:

My 1912 Model T takes 20 to 35 crank pulls to start when cold this is in addition to varying the number of choke pulls from 2 to 5. It is a fresh rebuild with new babbitt, valve seats, rings and a 280 cam with just 40 miles on the rebuild. When it starts it is a very possitive start and you don't need to rush back to advance the spark. It runs well once started. Once it is started and runs for say a minute and turned off with no choke pulls it will start on the first pull. What do you think is the solution to reduce the number of crank pulls when it is cold?
Thanks, Ken


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:22 am:

Starting on cold mornings has always been a problem for Model T's. One common solution was to use a blow torch to heat the air intake prior to starting because it was determined that hot air is beneficial to the smooth operation of the Model T engine. This is the concept which led to the design and implementation of the air intake heater which fits over the exhaust manifold with a tube going down to the air intake port of the carburetor which allows the hot air from the surface of the exhaust manifold to be drawn into the intake manifold through the carb. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:38 am:

Before I start the ol' truck (hand crank), I do the following:

1. Be sure the spark is retarded.
2. Advance the gas to about 1/3.
3. With the ignition off, pull the choke, hold it, and turn the engine over 2 complete revolutions, then release the choke.
4. Turn on the ignition and start it, no choke.

This procedure gets me a "first pull" cold engine start most of the time (sometimes even a "free " start). I hope it helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charlieb on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:39 am:

Somethings not there that should be on those first 25 or so pulls. Spark or fuel. Do you use a "hot shot" battery for starting? Without knowing anything else I lean towards ignition only because you'd probably have to be getting no fuel at all in order to get no kicking or false starts when cranking. With no spark however you can pull till your arm falls off and nothing will happen. Does fuel drip from the carb when choking/cranking for a while?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert G. Hester Jr. on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:57 am:

You might be over choking and creating a flooded condition which takes, as you say, 20 to 35 pulls to clear. First, check the choke plate and make sure it is closing all the way. If so, one or two pulls with it closed should put enough raw gas in the carb to maybe cause it to drip a little. The fumes from this raw gas is what gives her the rich mixture she needs for cold starts. Over choking will draw raw gas into the cylinders which must be cleared before she'll run. Too rich OR too lean, the mixture won't ignite. Your mileage may vary. Happy T'ing. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:01 am:

Sorry, I overlooked something. My '18 has a battery, so free starts are possible. If you aren't using a battery in your '12 of course you won't get a free start.

Charlie's right, 25 pulls and no go means something is wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Dugger on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:03 am:

In Califoprnia we have such great gas (sic) and if it set for a few weeks it is hard to get mine started, however when it starts it run great. The post by Henry sounds great, and I am going to try that in the next couple of dayus and see how it works.
Make sure your coils are working good, as I had that problem on my '19 at first. When I had the correct current to the plugs it would start on a quarter turn on the hand crank. What a surprise when you can pull the hand crank 1/4 turn and roars to life, and besure the wheels are chocked. My '19 ran out of the garage about 6 feet before I got it shut off. Now I jack up the left rear wheel and a chocke on the front.
If you can check the coils and make sure they are putting out 1.2 to 1.3 amps. If not have them rebuilt, as it makes a world of difference. "That is my story and I'm sticking to it".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:10 am:

Charlie -- It could be getting either too much gas or not enough.

Are you opening up the mixture adjustment an extra 1/4 turn or so when it's cold? That usually helps. Then turn it back to the sweet spot after a minute or so. Opening it is not necessary when starting the engine after it's warm.

If you are already doing that and smell gas after a couple of pulls, then you probably are flooding it as was mentioned above. If that is the case, open the throttle way up and it will clear quicker. Then, don't give it as many choke pulls next time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:10 am:

Oops -- I meant Ken, not Charlie. Sorry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:15 am:

Mike Walker, I agree. Mine has to be open that additional quarter turn to start or run only when cold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harry A. Daw on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:19 am:

I open the mixture a 1/4 turn like Mike and choke my 15 for 3 or 4 quarter turns. Then turn the key on battery. Usually I get a free start but if not one or two quarter turns without the choke gets it going. I do have a set of coils that were set up on an original coil tester.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:23 am:

You didn't mention if you have a battery. If you're trying to start a cold engine on mag, good luck.
If battery, I agree with the poster that says you're flooding the carb.
Try this first thing in the morning
Spin the crank only once with the choke wire pulled. Then continue spinning not pulling the choke wire. If it doesn't start after say 7 or 8 pulls, try the next step
Open the throttle lever all the way down and crank up to 10 times no choke. If it catches for a moment before it dies, then you know you initially flooded the carb and need to start over without the choke in the future. If it does not catch, start over but choke on only two spins and continue thru the steps.
If that doesn't work, you might have a float height problem.
You didn't say what carb you're running. If you have an early carb where you can flood the bowl with a plunger, there is another sure fire technicque. I use it on my 5 ball and get free starts most of the time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Robb on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:36 am:

Anybody ever tried tossing an old electric blanket over the engine and leaving it plugged-in overnight the night before?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:54 am:

You didn't mention if you have a battery. If you're trying to start a cold engine on mag, good luck.
If battery, I agree with the poster that says you're flooding the carb.
Try this first thing in the morning
Spin the crank only once with the choke wire pulled. Then continue spinning not pulling the choke wire. If it doesn't start after say 7 or 8 pulls, try the next step
Open the throttle lever all the way down and crank up to 10 times no choke. If it catches for a moment before it dies, then you know you initially flooded the carb and need to start over without the choke in the future. If it does not catch, start over but choke on only two spins and continue thru the steps.
If that doesn't work, you might have a float height problem.
You didn't say what carb you're running. If you have an early carb where you can flood the bowl with a plunger, there is another sure fire technicque. I use it on my 5 ball and get free starts most of the time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charlieb on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:57 am:

Remember what happened in "The Thing from Another World" with the electric blanket? (dating myself,I know).Just looked at your profile Ken and I guess it gets alot colder up there than in N.J. so some of these old time cold start fixes might be what you need. How about one of these coolant heaters they sell? Still:make sure you're mechanically OK before you pull that dead piece of cow out of your back pocket and separate your self from some stimulus money.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 12:53 pm:

Ken's thread title says it's only hard to start when cold. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Ken, do you mean cold as in cold weather, or do you mean an engine that is cold because it has not been started in a couple of days, regardless of the outside temperature?

If it is the latter, then you do have a problem.

If you mean it's hard to start in cold weather, how many turns of the crank does it take to start in warm weather? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hunt Dowse on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 01:13 pm:

This is just what is happening to a friend's newly rebuilt engine speedster. Hard to start when the engine hasn't been run for a day but starts great, 1/4 turn, when it's been run as little as a few minutes. 12 v coil & distributor. We now think that the very stiff engine is sapping the power to the coil when "cold" but when warm the engine spins more freely and starts easily because the coil is getting full voltage. Any thoughts on this as a possibility?
We plan to hook up his battery booster as we crank the "cold" engine and see if the extra oomph does the trick. If so, he'll just put up with it until the engine eases a bit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 01:22 pm:

Also didn't mention if the gas was turned off. Sometimes it takes a bit to fill the bowl before it will start. I give two pulls with the choke closed (Three pulls with the choke will flood mine) and key off. If it doesn't free start, then 1 pull gets it running.

BTW, Three pulls with the choke will flood mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Brown on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 01:59 pm:

I'm sorry, when I said the engine is "cold" I meant that it was the temperature of the surrounding air - say 55-60F like after sitting 8 hours or more. I use a 12V wheelchair battery that came with the car when I got it for the coils. The carb I am using is a NH off a car that starts good when cold, this was in order to eliminate the carb as the problem. I advance the gas lever 1/4 to 1/3 that doesn't seem to matter.
I was thinking of not choking it then pulling the crank 10 times, then choking 1 pull then cranking another 10 times and keep adding 1 choke pull and 10 pulls until it starts. I don't know if my over 72 year old arm would stand up to that. It already keeps me awake at night by aching from trying to start this car.
I really appreciate all your help,
Ken


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 02:03 pm:

Ken If you're not sure if It's flooding, you might pull a spark plug and see if its wet or dry. Might save a lot of cranking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 02:09 pm:

Open the mixture control knob 1/4 to 1/2 turn before trying to start. After the engine starts and warms up for 30 seconds or so turn the mixture control back to the position for best running.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 02:37 pm:

Ken,

One thing I did when I got my non starter car was choke it too much. I discovered that by shutting off the gas one time and it started easliy a couple pulls later.

Another thing that I didn't realize was just how much current is drained from a battery while using it as a cheater for a T. If you haven't checked or charged that battery in a while, it might be on it's last leg. Also if your entire engine was rebuilt with good magnets, rebuilt field coil, gap set properly, and good/rebuilt coils, you can toss that battery as it's more trouble than it's worth.

My non-starter car starts the same no matter what temperature it is outside. For some reason it doesn't seem to make a difference if I leave the emergency brake off overnight (some say it squeezes out the oil in the clutch and makes it easier to start). Jacking up one wheel usually helps though - that's a big relief on the drivetrain when you allow it to turn. Just make sure you have the emergency brake in the center of it's travel so it can't go into high, and chock the wheels well. Then throttle way down once it starts before applying the brake in anticipation of lowering the jack.

But above all, if I switched my good "coilman rebuilt" coils out for "ok" ones that are probably in need of tune up and/or are double sparking, the same car goes from halfway easy to start most of the time to the biggest pain in the rear you will ever find. Good coils are THAT important. I'm sure you are close to a quarter-crank start car so keep looking for that last thing or two you need and you'll be much happier.

Craig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 02:41 pm:

Ken, I'm sure every model t is a little different but this is what I do. Mine has an electric start but I hand crank it once in a while.
To establish a reference point with carb.adjustment, forget the dash adjuster. Go directly to the carb.,loosen the packing nut on the needle valve stem a little so you can actually feel it when it seats. Turn it in clock-wise until it seats. Not to tight, it's very soft and easy to damage. Then I back it out one full turn, then re-tighten (snug) your packing nut. then get in your car open it up,counter-clockwise), an additional half turn and that's my starting position. then do the choke thing,but I turn the switch on before I hit the starter. I only use the switch off method when hand cranking. After it starts, I advance the timing a little let it warm up a few minutes then turn the carb adjustment back in, (clock-wise),that half turn. Mine runs best on one full turn open, add one-half for cold start-warm up, then back to that one turn open for run. I fine tune it by turning it clockwise till it begins to falter,then counter clockwise till it begins to falter and usually somewhere in the middle is just right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 02:58 pm:

Try reducing the sparkplug gap, Ken.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 04:04 pm:

With the engine running at a fast idel pull the spark all the way up and count to 5 before shutting off the switch! If your Ford does not start,fart,or kick over 50% of the time you might have other troubles?? Being that tight it might not start/run decent for 1,000 miles! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:58 pm:

Well, Ken, you have lots of advice here which might take you a few days to digest. :-)

Different techniques work for different cars. And, I've noticed that I need to adjust my starting technique when I use a different carburetor on the same car. With a Simmons carb, it will flood with more than one choke pull. With a Holley G, it starts better with 3 or 4 choke pulls. It'll take a bit of experimentation, but with practice you will figure out what your car/carb combination needs to get it to cooperate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Brown on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 11:47 am:

I think the cold starting problem is solved. The last two mornings the car started on 2 crank pulls without any choke pulls. The carb was opened 1/4 turn past the best running location and the gas was open 1/3 of the way.
Thank you so much for all your good advice. Ben


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ken parker on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 03:11 pm:

Ken,

I see it is solved but you may want to leave the hand brake forward while not using the car. Forces the oil out of the clutch plates. It makes my '14 hard to crank when cold. Drags just enough to keep it from kicking off.

Ken in Houston


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 05:26 pm:

Ken, I don't know if it really matters but leaving the lever forward also relieves the tension on the clutch spring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JIM WILSON on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 08:44 pm:

I found a 1922 issue of "Ford Care and Home Repair" on eBay. Very interesting. It is a magazine that contains selected repair articles from the "Ford Owner & Dealer" magazine. Most of the articles were written by Murry Fahnestock who was their technical editor. Also contains helpful practical repair tips. I tried to scan the following "tip" to post but it wasn't readable so here goes.

STARTS STIFF ENGINE - Here is a little hint for Ford owners who overhaul their own cars. To start a motor that has been overhauled is a very dificult task when there is no battery around. You don't need a battery to start your stiff motor. All you have to do is go to your neighbor and ask him if you can have his Ford for a few minutes. Your neighbor probably will say "Nothing doing. I'll not tow that stiff motor with my car."
But, tell him in advance that you don't want to use his car for towing purposes. Just long enough to use his power plant to get your car started. Then you will have him puzzled. He certainly will want to see what you are going to do with his Ford.
Now, instead of looking around for a tow line, look around for two pieces of wire about 8 or 10 feet long. Connect one wire from his magneto terminal to your battery side terminal. And connect the other wire, car-to-car for ground. The best and easiest way to ground it is to fasten the wire to both radiator rods.
Now, all ready, lets go! Let your neighbor start his engine and keep it running. Retard your spark lever. Throw your switch to battery side and a few lift ups will start your stiff motor very easily. Because there is plenty of juice there, it has a battery beaten.
This is a good stunt on cold mornings when there are a number of Fords with weak magnetos. This is what I have done on cold mornings. I would pick out a car that was an easy starter, with a good, live magneto. Then I would go from car to car until I had them all started. Remember, cranking one cold car is not so bad; but when it comes to cranking a dozen Fords, it's no fun.
Here is another thing I do. Often, I am sent out to start a new driver's car. Generally, when I get out, I find that the new driver cranks and cranks until he has the motor flooded. Of course, after the motor is flooded, no hand cranking will start the motor. All I do is connect the wires. And after a few turns the car will start up fine. I have started many a Ford on the country roads in this manner. Every Ford owner should carry about 8 to 10 feet of wire in his tool box for emergency.


This day in time you might have to wait a while for a "Ford" to come by to help get you started but get some wires any way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By coreywalker on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 11:14 pm:

I read where the problem had been solved but before I read that someone mentioned that starting on mag could be a problem. All T's may be different but I have 2 that start fine on mag. It got down to 10 degrees this winter and I went out to see how good the T would crank that morning. 3-4 pulls. The best thing about a T is that a battery is completely unneccessary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 12:58 pm:

I read all of the posts above. Did you check for air leaks in the intake system ?

After you get it running, squirt something that will burn all over all of the joints in the intake system. Where the manifold attached to the block and where the carburetor attaches to the manifold. Also squirt some at the throttle shaft on the carburetor.

If the engine changes speed, you have an air leak. Correct the attaching parts where they join at the place that creates change in speed.

Hand cranking or electric cranking at slow speed allows the leaking air to lean out the mixture so that it will not get the correct ratio to start the engine. When an engine is cold, only about five percent of the fuel will actually burn. A Model T needs a good wet prime with no air leaks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 01:11 pm:

To be safer, you can squirt water and look for stumbles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 03:18 pm:

Not everyone here is 32 and as fit as you are, Corey. For you, a battery probably isn't necessary.

I've got 20 years on you and I'm fairly fit for my age but starting a T on the mag at 10F with cold oil in the crankcase doesn't sound like something I'd want to try to do.


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