Dangerous features of a Model T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: Dangerous features of a Model T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 09:59 pm:

The thread asking how dangerous is a early wishbone got me thinking. How many items on a stock Model T are dangerous by today's standards. I can think of a couple ie
1. Motion and braking dependent on one small key under the pinion gear
2. Plate glass in the windshield
Can anyone add to this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:06 pm:

#1 = OTHER DRIVERS

Never, ever forget this when driving a Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kathy Sidenstricker on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:14 pm:

Poor exterior lights. Lack of tail lights, turn signals, 6 volt head lights.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:17 pm:

No belts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:17 pm:

It all depends on what your meaning of dangerous is.

When driving you must remember all the quirks and limitations of the Model T, especially two wheel brakes and recognize that other drivers in modern cars have no idea about these and usually treat you like you were any other car.

So Craig is right on number 1, and a driver that doesn't recognize the quirks and limitations and or pay strict attention to other drivers on the road might be an even bigger number ONE.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:33 pm:

#1 is the guy driving the Model T. As Clint Eastwood once said, "A Man's gotta know his limitations".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:36 pm:

Babbitt thrust washers.

I will agree about the tail light. Pretty dim. The oil ones with the small lense to the rear especially. Headlights? Could be better, but OK for slow speeds. Couldn't say about gas headlights, but would really like to find out one day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:48 pm:

Endless debates: i.e. water pump vs no water pump arguments......:-) LOL!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By richard wolf on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 10:55 pm:

Hal;
You really don't want to meet a model T with its gas lights burning. They will knock your eyes out.
This friend of mine, always ran gas lights with a Prest-O-Lite tank on tours and had the brightest lights on tour.
Richard


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:02 pm:

I think the most dangerous thing about a model T is the tailgating,cell phone talker/texter speeding along with their head up their rear with absolutly no regaurd for anyone but themselves!! Look at the recent accident involving two School Busses!! The first one has his/her head in their rear and hits a truck along the highway! The second idiot must have been to close and hits first buss!! These idiots were supps to be pro's and Tought to Mannage The Space Around Them!!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:20 pm:

I think Kenneth has exposed the greatest danger to T drivers today. That being said the T driver MUST know the limitations of his/or her car, and their driving ability.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:32 pm:

Other drivers such as people who overtake even in extremely wet weather on blind corners while you are already speeding, Or overtake at stop signs. These same people even pass speeding modern cars in snow and ice and do not wait until they have gotten in front of the car they were passing before pulling back into your lane, What is up with that?
Almost forgot, Other drivers who follow so close that they could not see your brakelights or turn signals if you have them, No matter how much you break the speed limit by (20,30,50) these people will be there trying to ram into the rear of your car for no reason because they have no concept of following distances or speed/velocity type stuff


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 11:49 pm:

Ken, I worked for a School Bus company decades ago. Pro is a relative word. A few were conscientious, but most......not so much. My eyes were opened during that time, so when my kids started riding the bus, I became involved.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 02:37 am:

What kind of accidents have been reported here?

The most recent was the Martins, whose brakes failed to hold on a hill after a missed shift.

One before was the Scudders, whose brakes failed to hold on a hill after a missed shift.

April 2010: Brass touring rearended on freeway by a pro driving a big truck.

About 2008: a brass Touring in Detroit, IIRC, which went out of control due to possible early wishbone.

About 2000: British brass Touring lost control due to early wishbone, and crashed.

HCCA tour in British Columbia about 2005: 1915 Touring lost brakes descending a mountain.

Orange County Tour, 2004: 1926 pickup engine quit on hill; parking brake wouldn't hold, and no chock, so it rolled backwards off the road into a tree as the owners watched in horror.

Spokane member(?): other car failed to yield, and wife thrown out of T.

Mine: oak spokes broke when wheel skidded sideways.
----------

These are off the top of my head, and show a prevalence of inadequate brakes, and other drivers are less likely to be the cause. A full, detailed list of accidents in the last ten years would be nice to have.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 05:42 am:

Don't you people realize you are only adding fuel to the legal peoples fire ? Pretty soon,we won't be able to insure or liscence the old cars and you jerks are only doing research for the lawyers!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 07:20 am:

Easy Jack,, the important thing is to know the car's limitations & your limitations.

Regardless, the jerks we vote into office will make up legislations about anything just to be active in office. It's their job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 08:24 am:

Bud Scudder didn't miss any shift. The rear end fell apart because it had the reproduction solid Hyatt bearings fail. Thus nothing but the parking brake on a steep hill going backwards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 08:58 am:

Given that there are 1000's of Modelt's on the US road every day during season, 10 severe accidents over 10 years are 10 too many, but still a very little number of accidents.
The fact that we even discuss it in the aim to eliminate causes or be prepared for these things to happen eventually probably makes us responsible above the average John Doe US driver.
I am sure you can find politicians everywhere, that based on this may want to legislate against our hobby, but then I could think of a few other things they should try to spend time on with better positive impact.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Shelton on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 09:46 am:

Repop Pinion Bearing - apparently it has become accepted that the repop pinion bearings are dangerous...I noticed last night that Lang's has dropped them and notes in their catalog that they are not recommended for use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charlieb on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 09:50 am:

Guys the only thing (compared to todays vehicles) not dangerous about T's is wiping off the dust buildup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 11:12 am:

Insurance loss ratios will determine cost and availability, not a discussion of past accidents. Learning from history is the best way to keep from making it.

Prior post and following are as I remember them only, and not definitive.

About 1999-2001, I remember there was a 1926 T roadster or coupe accident reported in local Montana news, but we never learned any more about it on the Forum. It was fatal to sole occupant.

About 2005, a 1911 Touring in SoCalif sprang a gas leak and stopped. Occupants fled as fire started. Tank exploded, severely injuring one occupant who was 50 feet away. Extinguisher aboard failed to function, although its gauge indicated full.

About 2008: 1922 Centerdoor lost left rear wheel upon accelerating uphill from a stop. Car was equipped with floating hubs, but no provision to retain the wheel when axle broke. No injury; minor damage.

2009 Arizona Speedster Run: Two semi-famous speedsters broke running gear upon hitting speed bump in parking lot at end of run.

2007? Jeffers 1909 Touring rearended on Mississippi hiway. Substantial body damage.

2003? Reid Welch 1920 coupe broadsided. No injury; car substantially damaged. Rear wheels collapsed. Other driver reportedly at fault.

2009: 1915 Terry Touring Turns Turtle after sliding on gravel, followed by wheel collapse. Minor injury.

There have been lots more reported on these Forums over the last dozen years, and those must account for only a fraction of the total.

Be careful, ya' hear?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Kuehn on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 11:41 am:

I am lucky to live out in the country and have plenty of good farm to market roads to drive my 2 Model 'Ts'.
Even then the cars and trucks that blow by me at 60-70 mph give me the williees as I see them coming up FAST in my rear view mirrow. I drive my cars no more than 40. I have been tempted to to put a slow moving vehicle sign on mine!
Most if not all folks dont realize the limitations of a T and DO NOT slow down. It has gotten worse I have noticed over the last few years.
I guess I am lucky enough to not have haul my car out somewhere to be able to drive it for a reasonable distance.
If your T is in reasonably good shape the biggest scare is THE OTHER GUY. Try coming up to a 4 way intersection in a busy time of day and see what happens. Nuff said
The time will come that the anti-gun nuts and the super safe safety nuts will get together and not allow anything unsafe to be in the public domain. Best thing to do is to keep your gun in your pocket and dont say nuthin. We can do that in Texas you know. But you still have to have a license to do that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 11:51 am:

We have to keep things in prospective. EVERYTHING designed in the teens and 20's is more dangerous than today. Now back to the Model T.
No safety glass, no seat belts, no safety door latches, the nut in the middle of the steering wheel lines up perfectly with your teeth. In the Tudor's (like mine) the seats fold forward, launching you into the windshield. You're either sitting on the gas tank or directly behind it. The brakes are almost non-existent compared to modern standards. The lights, especially on the Brass cars, are little more than space markers.
I could go on, but almost everybody here knows the limitations of their cars and drives accordingly.
That's what the evolution of the automobile was all about, from the days of the cars we drive, to the "safety cocoons" made today.
If a person of the 20's was time transported to today, the modern car and today's high speed traffic would probably scare him to death.
I THINK ABOUT the things I've listed above, every time I'm driving my car (like I will be again in a couple hours), It's just part of the territory when you're a "Time Traveler", like we are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 01:18 pm:

I think this is an excellent opportunity for us to post some very helpful information. Hopefully one or more of us will take the time to do a summary of that information to help others in the future.

Some of the things we take for granted as common knowledge are unknown to the new Model T owner. Or for that matter as demonstrated below – you could have grown up driving a mid 1915 and later Model T all your life and perhaps never heard of any danger from the rivets in the steering case working loose. It isn’t just a grease leak – it stops steering the car. I know I tend to skip over the information for years I don’t own, so it would be easy to have skipped over some good information that I didn’t need at one time but when / if I change cars or parts for the car – they could now be important to know.

Steering Safety early 1915 and before steering gear housing
Page 16 – Sep – Oct 1976 (used by permission to promote our hobby).

A major mishap on the tour occurred when the rivets
which secure the steering gear box sheared on Roger
Hull’s 1913 Runabout. This left the car without steering
and the car veered off the road and into a ditch, overturning
and injuring his wife, Jerry. The upper small
picture shows the car before the accident.
A good safety check for all owners of early Fords would
be to make certain these rivets are tight and that there
is no oil leaking at this point (indicating looseness).






Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 01:29 pm:

I often post the following when I am welcoming a new member.

Before you start driving it in other than an empty area be sure to check out some of the safety items discussed at:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/13483.html

on cranking: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/68644.html?1224126132

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/69444.html

they are not fast – slow moving vehicle sign: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/96515.html?1246128999

Safety Glass is nice: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/72116.html

Use safety wire and not lock washers or cotter pins on the two studs holding the wishbone to the underside of the engine. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/47898.html

Lots of safety items – looks like I’m behind on writing that safety article… http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/69429.html

Over center steering – shouldn’t happen on the later Ts – but if someone replaced your later teens steering gear housing or rebuilt it without the lock pin – it might happen: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/86345.html

Types of safety wire: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/41859.html

Example of loss of brakes caused by drive shaft failure: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/47804.html

Top T tips – many of them are safety related also: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/85208.html

Tour safety check list: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/44331.html

And if you have a gas hot water heater in the garage – be very very careful. The float in a Model T Carb will sometimes stick (or trash in the valve) and the carb will leak gasoline. Not too bad if there are no sparks. However, several homes, garages and cars have been lost when a gas hot water heater was near by and the car leaked gas.

While it will never meet current OSHA standards, with proper maintenance, care, and a well trained driver a Model T can safely provide a lot of fun.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 01:43 pm:

The hardest problem to correct and still keep the car looking like the antique that it is is the fact that the bottom of the frame is 22 inches above the ground.
Even independent front suspension, 4 wheel power disc brakes and plenty of horsepower wouldstill not make the T a very safe car to drive at freeway speeds.
As it is, the T is probably no more dangerous than a motorcycle.
If you keep the mechanical stuff from causing an accident that leaves the driver and other drivers.
Like the one I reported on in late June, and RD posted pics, it is hard to prevent being rear ended by a semi. Even a slow sign or a big light won't help it the truck driver has his head up his ascend.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 05:28 pm:

Most dangerous thing for a T? Any road with a speed limit over 35 mph. Other than that, the T is the zero benchmark for the development of automotive safety design.
Gary


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 10:00 pm:

Gary, wait untill the day you have to do a panic stop at 35MPH in a T.
Since I did one at 25 with hydraulic rear brakes I've almost guit driving my T.
A guy pulled out in front of me on fresh blacktop and my wheels slid about 2 car lengths as I almost T boned him. Pun not intended.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe G. on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 01:23 am:

has anyone had a problem with their alternator over charging? Ive heard and read that these alternators can do that. Also, for those that run alternators, the new ammeters warn about using with a alternator has anyone had a problem with alternator ammeter hookup?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Findley on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 06:04 am:

Being new to the T world, this thread has been very enlightening. Even though I should know better after 35 years in safety, I mostly minimized the risk due to the slower speeds.
We've had our TT on the road about 6 times so far. Short trips on country farm roads but already had one instance where another driver came up dangerously fast. I am considering placing a slow vehicle sign on the back. Also taking a closer look at our tires that have new tread but some dry rot on the sides. One of our windshield plates has a bad crack and so its on the list for replacement. Sounds like maybe both plates should be swaped out. Brakes is gotta be the big concern. Seems like I recall an old cartoon where a Model T driver had a chain and boat anchor he'd throw out.....nah, probably not a good idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harvey Decker on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 09:34 am:

A straight Drag Link !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 09:38 am:

Why don't you start a new thread on the alt overcharge, Joe?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 11:15 am:

Aaron, I agree with what you said but to me driving 25-35 when everyone else is going 50-60 (or even higher) is the scariest thing as I know if anything happens at those speeds someone is going to be killed.
Gary


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob sell on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 11:30 am:

i think progress or so called progress was,is and allways be the #1 enemy of the model t ford...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 09:02 pm:

Progress gave us the Model T. Say "giddy up'.
Progress and ageing are similar. Sometimes it is not so good but the alternative is worse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brian clark on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 09:28 pm:

Speaking of the legal stuff, has anyone had their insurance company decline collision coverage on their Model T?
I just signed with JC Taylor and they declined collision on mine.
We're asking for more info, but haven't received any yet.
Hoping it's just a mistake.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Sunday, August 08, 2010 - 11:05 pm:

Hap, besides the rivets in the steering case being a potential problem I have heard reference to the nut behind the wheel being something to look out for.:-)

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Snyder on Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 11:54 am:

"How many items on a stock Model T are dangerous by today's standards?" I think the answer is ...all of them. I use to race cars and my T gives me the same feeling at 25mph that I use to get at very high speeds.
Mike Snyder


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush on Friday, August 13, 2010 - 12:29 am:

Cranking the T WITHOUT the spark retarded with the right hand. (Or left for that matter!)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kathy Sidenstricker on Friday, August 13, 2010 - 11:59 pm:

Please let us know what JC Taylor has to say about the collision coverage. I use them for my T insurance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Edward J. Baudoux on Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 05:28 am:

Gravity feed fuel system. How many old timers crawl under to shut the gas off? I have the Bob Scherzer valve under the hood, and I still crawl under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 07:20 am:

Kathy,

Call JC Taylor and they will send you a policy proposal. Their antique policies all include collision. All of my collector cars are insured by JC Taylor. My premium is about $450 a year for agreed value of $100,000 on 6 collector cars. The JC Taylor collision policy is better than that on my modern cars which are insured through Geico.


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