E brake and seal questions

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: E brake and seal questions
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 03:11 pm:

Still working on the 1919 and have a few more questions.

1. Outer seal - Since there was no washer with the seals when I took it apart I can't tell if I'm putting it together corectly. I have the washer, felt seal and cap. The front and rear axel manual say that the washer goes on first, followed by the seal and cap. As you can see in the picture the washer will not go against the bearing. It does not fit inside the axel housing. Do I just leave the washer off like it was before or should I try to get a washer that fits?





#2 E brake lining -- The bad outer seal has me replacing the E-brake lining because it is oil soaked. When I removed the wheel one section of lining fell off so I know it needed some work. The shoe is a bit differnt from what I see in the parts catalogs but the lining was in two segments so I ordered one that was two parts for each wheel.



Now that there are here I'm not sure if I have the right ones. They are about 1 inch shorter and the material is significantly different. The old ones are woven cloth with wire imbeded in them (see the first picture) and the new ones look like they are some type of composit material. The brake shoes don't seem to match anything I see in the catalogs. I didn't take a picture of the new linings.

Any ideas?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 07:59 pm:

I took an extended weekend (4 days) so I had time to finish a few things and get the car running before snow. My goal is to do a spin around the block this weekend.

I just finished rebuilding the carb, cleaning the timer and putting new spark plug wires on the car. All that is left before attempting the first start in over 45 years is the rear brakes and outer seals.

I could attempt to start it without the seals or brakes but I need to do it outside of the garage because I know it is going to smoke due to lots of oil in the cylinders etc.

My wife says that she is going to warn the neighbors ahead of time because one is a volunteer fireman and she wants him to be ready to help out the old guy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 08:18 pm:

Fred -- Your roller bearing looks like it's in farther than normal. Is there a seal on the inner end of the bearing? The inner seal would take up that 1/8" or so of space you have there. The steel washer goes against the outer end of the housing, then the felt, then the cup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 08:29 pm:

Fred
The inner seal that Mike is referring to generally works WAY better that the outer felt. hook out the roller and look inside with a good light. I suspect the inner seal is missing on your car so you may want to order them for a future project. You will also need a bearing sleeve removal tool to install them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 09:03 pm:

Wow Thanks for the insight --

The bearings on both sides are in about a 1/4 inch (.250 and .257)
The right on didn't leak but the left one did.
The felt on the right was whole and the cap secure.
The cap on the left side was off the axel housing and the felt was very thin - like it had been worn away due to the cap rotating.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 09:07 pm:

woops -- pressed to many keys -

I'll attempt to pull the bearinfg and see what is going on inside then put the outer seal on and get it going this weekend - I'm thinking about doing a whole rearend rebuild this winter to be sure it has bronze thrust bearings.

Next to figure out the brake lining --


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 10:03 pm:

Fred, thase brake shoes look like early aftermarket of some kind. I don't think the new linings being a bit shorter would matter much. Main thing is to keep them dry. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso on Friday, September 03, 2010 - 10:07 pm:

You have an era accessory set of lined shoes - won't take the same lining that you ordered from the parts suppliers - that is for the later accessory cast iron shoes. If you have a competent brake & clutch parts house nearby - they will have the lining you need. I believe Chaffin's offers different sized brake lining also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 10:05 am:

This might be a dumb question but I have history of being dumb --

I couldn't find alternate brake linings on Chaffin, Lang's, or Snyders for the T but the linings for the T Truck look close. Given the recessed bearing, different brakes, and the fact the vehicle has a Mifflinburgh body (the company did a lot of turck bodies) am I playing with the truck running gear?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 10:36 am:

No, you have a car chassis - the TT brake shoes are somewhere in the size of 12" - your's are closer to 8". From the above photo - it's clearly a car chassis.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 11:22 am:

Fred
Model A brake linings might work out for you. I believe the Model A parking brake lining might be very close to what you need.
That being said, why not just wash them good in gasoline (please do this outside) and then maybe finally with "brake Kleen" and reinstall the ones you have. They certainly don't look worn out at all, just grease soaked, and they may just get grease on them again anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 01:33 pm:

Thanks Les

That's what I planned to do until I get new linings.
The first picture is the good side and the second is the greasy side.
As I removed the greasy side the lining fell off the shoe so I'll have to see if there is enough left for the rivets to hold on to.

I'll chekout the A linings.

Steve Car vs truck -- Good to know! Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 05:02 pm:

Here is an update.

I cleaned the brake lining and it almost looks OK. I know that the first time it sees a bit of heat the remaining oil will come to the surface but it is only for parking and emergencies (LOL) so it will be OK for awhile.

Mike Walker and Les got it right - There are no inner seals on the outer bearings. (It is great to be able to consult with experts.)

The right bearing looks OK but the left is in trouble because the cage is loose. Now I'm at a dilemma. What to do?

New rear axel shaft bearings ($12.75 each Lang’s) don’t have oil groves. Lang’s says not to use these on the outer axel position while Snyder’s says they can be used but need frequent lubrication. Chaffin’s, Gaslight and Model T Haven just list the axel bearing 2508 with no comment. Some show pictures of the grove-less bearing.

Lang’s also lists modern “duel Timken bearings” that seem to replace the outer axel sleeves, bearings and grease seals ($169.95 each) and another “modern outer rear axel bearing kit ($210.50 each) that has little explanation.

If I get neoprene inner seals ($16.95 a set) and a new grove-less bearing for the left side, I can get the T going for around $30.00 -- but don’t want to make a stupid decision.

Any ideas?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 07:25 pm:

What ever you do, DO NOT throw away the bearing with the loose cage. The cage can be tightened and chances are the rollers can be reused


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 08:11 pm:

Kim -- The rollers look good but the cage is a bit loose at the rivets so it racks a little.
All the rods seem to be good.

Is there a trick to tightening them?

Maybe super glue, MMO or the bitumous stuff? LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 08:22 pm:

No i tightened the cages in mine with a hammer, hammering the end of the rod gently with a ball shaped hammer until the cage was tight but not hitting it hard enough to warp the cage. That method worked for me


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 08:34 pm:

LOL Thank's Kim -- I'll have to try that.

If it doesn't work with my standard ball pein hammer I can always get a bigger one.


h


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Monday, September 13, 2010 - 01:16 pm:

I thought that I'd give you an update on the rear bearing and seal.

1. I tightened the bearing cage like Kim recommended and it worked!

2. I got the neoprene inner seals and have started installing them.
The first thing I had to do was get a sleeve puller because the seal fits behind the sleeve.
The puller certainly made things easy and I'm adding more toys to my T tool set.
Finally I needed to grind about 0.060 off the end of the sleeve so it did not stick out of the end of the axel.
I ground it off the inner end so the tang and hole stayed aligned.
Replacing the sleeve was easy once I remembered reading about the hose clamp trick to compress it.
After that it seems to go together easily.

3. I cleaned the brake lining and re-atteched it to the shoe with the old rivits.
Since the car has the small drum I am still having trouble finding new lining material.
The guys at Langs told me that the big drum webbing would be too wide and sugested that I stay with the non-origional linings even though they are a bit short.
I'm still trying to figure this one out.

Just a note -- If it had not been for the observant folks on this board I would have never figured out that the inner seals were missing or learned about tightening the bearing cage.
Thanks guys - It's like having my own personal T consultant that is guiding me thru a maze of unknowns.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Monday, September 13, 2010 - 08:08 pm:

Fred

I used Model A emergency brake lining material on my set of aftermarket Model T brake shoes.

The material works well, it is a bit too wide, but you can grind that off flush at the bench grinder..... here are some pics


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Monday, September 13, 2010 - 08:38 pm:

Thanks Dan - that is on my list of things to try....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lee Crenshaw on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 12:02 am:

Fred. check out McMaster Carr #6175K111 brake lining sold by the ft. 1" wide by 3/16 thick made of wover metallic materail. Less than $3.00 per ft.
Lee


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Tuesday, September 14, 2010 - 08:24 am:

Lee Fantastic lead -- I forgot about McMaster Carr - They have tons of stuff....

What I really need is the semi metalic with the brass wire in it - 36175K115 for $3.48 a foot. They even have bags of 25 split rivets for around $6.00 - part #9561A673 or 4 - all I need to do is figure out the length I need.

Thanks again --


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Lewin - Shingle Springs, Ca. on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 11:03 am:

Fred, I have the after market shoes as you and need to renew the linings. I can not find the #36175K115 at McMaster Carr. Can you update what linings and rivets you ended up using?
Jerry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Monday, December 13, 2010 - 11:39 pm:

The 3 was supposed to be # and I finally got the semi metalic 6224K115.
I used a grinder to make the width and thickness a bit less.

I'm in Mexico on a business trip I'll confirm the rivets when I get home next week.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Lewin - Shingle Springs, Ca. on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 11:03 am:

Fred, Any information you can provide will be helpfull. Thanks, Jerry


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