I scored this yesterday right out of the blue. Stopped to see a guy and pick up an engine I had bought from him a couple months ago and hadn't had time to pick up. He told me to look around and see if there was anything else I could use. All just junk except for the bottom shelf of an old bench. Picked up a box and there they were!! How ya like em?? Seriously, does anybody know for sure what they are? I don't. I've never seen a real crank like this and have never seen a head with a combustion chamber like this. All info and ideas welcomed. ZOOM!!! ZOOOM!!!

Where is Fast Frank when you need him???





I know its not a Ricardo, a Superpower, a Highpower or any of the other common ones, I have one of each of those. It is hard to tell in the picture but the combustion chamber is less than half an inch from the mounting surface. Probably less than half the area of my Superpower Head.

Also, the gray looking stuff on the crank is old tape residue. It had the throws wrapped with old plastic tape that had turned brittle. The throws look pretty good. I'm thinking RACE CAR!!!! SPEEDSTER!!!

By the way, I didn't get them cheap. Not a lot of money but I barely had lunch money in my pocket after I paid him and I usually carry a little cash. I'll post some other stuff I got, too. Have to go finish a couple carburetors now. Will post more later.

Interesting combustion chamber design...looks like it uses the Somender Singh principle. Very advanced for the day!

Looks like a Winfield 2up 2 down and one of his heads

Sincerely

Jim Weir

I'm with Jim, I think it's a Winfield crankshaft. Ed Winfield designed this crank because the T engine only has two intake ports and this keeps the two cylinders that share each port from taking their charges so close together. I guess that since this changes the firing order you'll need a Winfield cam as well. Stan, you better hustle on back and see if the guy has one of those. Anyway, back in the day, Mr. Winfield was outrunning all sorts of OHV and OHC conversions by just using one of his flathesds. You can read about Ed Winfield in Vintage Ford, March/April 2009.

I was just thinking I hadn't seen any of your posts for a while and this post shows up today.
Crank looks pretty heavy but should balance nicely.

Btw, Stan, I've never met Fast Frank but I predict he's going to turn bright green when he sees that thing. Bob

Cool! When you need a cam for it, give me or my brother a call.

Stan,Ole buddy you just proved that even a blind squirel finds a nut once in awhile. Good catch!

That's what I think it is, too. Yup, got the cam with it. Jack, the deal is, even tho a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile, he still has to be smart enough to know it's a nut and not a small horse turd. =)

Stan,

Nice find. Well deserved.

Here is another two up two down for comparison.

I'd gladly trade a few horse turds for that head/crank/cam combo. Let me know...horse turds in-hand (sorta).

Hey Stan ol buddy ol pal

I will be visiting you in about 6 weeks!!!

Excellent find!

I'd only heard about the two up two down cranks, but this is the first time I'd ever seen them in pixel.

It looks like someone added additional weight to the the counterweights and then balanced the assembly since I see what looks like two spot welds on the edges that have been ground. Could be lead I suppose since it hasn't rusted.

It's hard to tell, but it looks like the head work was done by hand as well.

I haven't had time to read all of the posts (looks interesting) yet but thought I would throw this out. A fellow down-under recently got his 2-cyl REO engine back together and reported at how well it is running. He has a new counterbalanced crank, lightwt pistons, and lightened flywheel. The end result is that it runs real good! I was visiting with a friend about this and he said something about a group of people who like to race 1 & 2 cyl. boats (I'm not sure if they are antique) and he thought they were getting pretty good at making them run without vibration, etc. Anyone know/heard about this? There has to be some connection between the counterbalance, flywheel, and piston wt. I haven't checked for websites on this topic yet. Got to run to a Model T meeting!!!
Verne

Haven't had a good chance to look it over much but my take on the welds is that the side weights were added by putting a rod through them that goes into the primary weight and then clamps with the Allen head screw you can see. That way they could be removed for grinding. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get the stone to the throws to grind it. The attached weights are not lead. The welds are probably to keep everything in place at RPMs over ????? Wouldn't want those weights coming off at speed.

The head is a casting.

That is a home built two up two down for sure and the added weights welded on were a quick fix after the fact or as Stan says "necessary because almost impossible to build it in one piece as Ed did.

I have no idea how much the weight should be on such an engine but Ed's crank has more weight on the crank lobes.

The head is very nice and not at all like Ed Winfield's head on his two up two down engine. This one has a channel cut in it to direct the gasses and Ed's head was simply smooth all over without any channels to direct the combustion two and from the valves as you can see in the picture of Ed's head below.

Stan made a neat purchase and I envy him but he deserves that prize and yes Robert Heste, I am rather green at this time.

Frank, you must be feeling better, your sense of humor is back. They should have just hired you for the Shrek movies. Would have saved them a lot of time in makeup.

The crank is turned from billet, with additional weights added on to the side of the billet counterbalances. I want to hear this thing run and appreciate the emails I've had about buying it; at this point it looks like Harry Lillo and I are going to put it in an engine and see what it sounds like and how it runs, etc. I don't see any maker's name on any of it, I think Frank is right, I think somebody made this in their shop but they were a pretty skookum machinist. It's nicely done.

The head is pretty interesting. Probably going on the engine with the crank and cam. Might be a winter project and might be down the road. I can just see this all in a speedster. zoom zoom. I have a couple projects ahead of a speedster and a ton of carburetors to get out so don't know that I will have time to do much on it this winter. Harry is working a lot and probably going to Panama for at least part of the winter. Les will be through here in a month or so or his way down to their place in Mexico; be good to get his take on it and see what he thinks it is.

Snowing here this morning, winter is on the way, wish I didn't have a bunch of bookwork to do, good day to be in the shop.

Stan, I think Bill Stipe could make you a camshaft since he makes his out of billet steel. All he would have to do is change the lobes to their new position and grind away.

Humble Howard and I are going to visit my Chris Egsgaard engine today in a couple of hours and it is being done by the fellow who re-built the Ed Winfield two up two down engine complete and ran it on the dyno. I will ask him if he remembers the type of lift and dwell that the Winfield cam used on the two up two down.

Notice that the lobes are very different in the picture below and make the engine go like stink. A correctly timed engine with normal cam profile configuration would not run at its full potential unless it had that cam profile. Ed Winfield's special cam profile required roller followers and would be an exercise in wonderfulness for a fellow trapped in a garage for the winter. Perhaps you could whittle one out of a stick of steel by spring time.

Humble Howard and My old friend, the late Jim Cullinane who produced the set of Speedster books, copied the Winfield two up two down intake manifold and reverse engineered it for Mark Chaffin who builds and sells them at a reasonable price.

No Luck Stan. They are keeping the cam profile and timing for the two up two down engine a secret and will not tell. The only way to do it is to look at the photographs of the cam lobes in the pictures I posted and extrapelate though third angle projection as in Descriptive Geometry. That was how I got one of my Master's Degrees. Then find out the profile size requirements for the cam grinder and plot the cam to that larger size and use the template to guide the grinder in actually profiling the lobes.


On a happy note, I saw my brand new rocker arm assembly for the Chris Egsgaard BBR RAJO Hill Climber engine. They converted hydraulic tappets to mechanicals and the whole thing looks very nice . . . . See picture below.

Or, you could contact Tom Carnegie, as he suggested near the top of this thread. He seems to know a thing or two about cams, since they have been in most of the Montana 500 winning cars for several years.

BTW, Good score on those parts, Uncle Stan.

The cam came with it. I purposely did not post a picture.

Frank, I got one of my Master's Degrees -- the one in School Administration -- by going to college and listening to long winded instructors who had, for the most part, never taught in the public school system for more than about two days, let alone in some weenie little town in Montana which is where I would have ended up as the Principal or Superintendent had the call of self unemployment and playing music in the honky tonks not been as strong as it was.

I got the other one in Elementary Education, which, while I was getting it, reminded me on a daily basis why I did not want to go teach at a college or be a Principal. Almost 30 years since I escaped from the clutches of the University and the preliminary acceptance to their Doctoral program. Best thing I ever did. I'm glad people like it, but as for me, I'll stand on the street corner and sell pencils before I will ever again work a day for anybody. 391 auctions, two or three ranches, a dozen girlfriends and various other ways to spend every dime I ever made I'm still working instead of retired on a government check. Worked for me.

Back to T's.

Stan in the 1940's I was paid $10 a night to play my accordion in an Italian restaurant in San Pedro, California and they fed me too. I made $30 a week at 16years of age. six 'till ten Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. One evening when I went to work the restaurant was closed because the owner had been shot by his bookie.

After graduating from college and getting an Industrial Arts Degree in 1955 I began teaching in the public schools for ten dollars a day. Could have had more fun playing the accordion than teaching and at the same pay for less work if that guy had paid his bookie what he owed him. Also played in a band and sang with them at Knott's Berry Farm in the early 50's while going to college and chasing girls.

Sorry for the poor quality picture but the music was good. We played both kinds. Country and Western.

FRANK!!!! YOU HAVEN'T AGED A DAY!! BTW, a good friend of mine still plays at Knotts, worked there for years. He later was the piano player in the "Deadwood" TV show. Dave Bourne. I don't have a TV so I never saw him on TV but have played a lot of music with him.

Stan
look for me around the 5th or 6th. I am looking forward to seeing your "gems". Whatever help I can give you is yours.

Thanks, I plan to be in Calgary for the Christmas party on the 5th if I can make it. I have an auction in Minnesota on the 27th, should be back a couple days after. I'm selling 85 head of Buffalo and about 50 Highlander cows and bulls back there. Should be an experience.

Stan, You know Dave Bourne?? He's a great and talented fellow. He just played at our shooting match "The Gunfight Behind The Jersey Lilly" Met him when he played every year for "End Of Trail" I have 3 of 4 of his CD's.

Have you been by that car yard in Bozeman lately? Is that T roadster still there, or did you buy it?

Yup, good friend of mine. We admire each others songwriting abilities and try to get together at Elko every year to play a tune or two. We did an all night jam session last year, stayed up until 6 am playing upstairs at the Stockman.

I haven't been down there for quite awhile. I don't think Paul owned that 27 Roadster, I think it was a consignment from Bob Woodburn. I dunno if he still has it or not. I can ask him, I talk to him just about every day. "BUY" is not in my vocabulary lately. Neither is "Profit."