I have seen or heard of 5 of them. Just wondering if anyone ever took the time to make a list, not that it really means anything.
Just a curious question.
I just drove one in the shop 5 minutes ago. There is also another one in town. Both will likely be for sale soon. They are out there, but many are assembled cars. Original cars are rare.
There are 1909 Model T's probably in the low hundreds (less than 200) of cars that exist. How many are authentic and how many are Rootlieb bodies with reproduction running gear? No telling. Maybe Kim Dobbins would have some idea?
As for other 1909 makes I would have no idea, obviously fewer. One would think at least a few thousand of all makes world wide.
Here's an '09 2 lever car I saw at a local show a couple weeks back. I failed to get any info as to ownership, history etc.
Hi Luke & Others,
The 2-Lever belongs to Gail Roorda and is Serial #337-a Beautiful Example!!! If you have any more views Please post them as we can't get enough of these 2-Levers
There are 28 on the early ford register.
We have 2 in our club, my 1909 Roadster and Cliff Proctors 1909 Touring.
I wanted to go back and get some better photos when the sun changed angle, but I never made it back over there. I wanted to get some undercarriage & detail shots as you seldom see a 2 lever car. In fact this was the first time I saw one in person.
There's a two lever without any linkage below the floor in the Sacramento museum.
I count 82 1909 (including two 1908) Model T Fords listed in the 2009-2010 Horseless Carriage Roster.
And apparently all you had to do was to pick up one of those business cards :-)
The 2 lever Luke posted pics of belongs to Milt Roorda. He bought the car from Joedy Defrank, Sacramento, CA. He bought the collection of parts from me in 1993, had Ray Wells build him a body and built a car. I bought the parts in a big collection of early Ford parts that belonged to the late Dennis Swenson, Fairview, SD. Dennis bought the block (#337) from Dan Davis, Reno, NV who bought it from Herb Bloom in Texas. I think that motor was in the 1909 Model T town car that Dan bought from Herb Bloom. I can't remember why it got separated from the town car. Thats to bad if that block was originally in that car. This is probably more then anyone wants to know about 337 but that's the story as I remember it!
Please tell us about your latest early one, Kim.
The Los Angeles County Museum of Natural History has a two lever in its collection.
The two lever T in the LA county museum is # 714. My Dad bought that car in 1953 from the second owner. My Dad restored the car,and our family toured it for a number of years, with the HCCA and the So Cal T club. We sold it to Harra's in 1965, and it was later sold to LA county museum.
My car is 9267, shipped Aug 17th 09 to Boston. Has Beaudette ally body with original (partially shredded!) leather.
Forgive the ignorant question, but how do you drive a 2 lever? The second lever is reverse? Would the first lever be pulled back first into neutral (but no parking brake?)??
Hard to back up in the two lever.
A firm pull is needed on the reverse lever, and then throttle with one hand, and oh, you have to turn the steering wheel with that throttle hand too ...all while your head is turned around
Here are pics of the stuff on a 1909 2lever
ah, I thought the levers were in the same plane. Good education, neat pics, thanks!
Two pedal Model T operation:
The brake and clutch pedals do the same job as any other T.
The brake lever:
Only operates the parking brakes. (Not neutral)
The second lever:
Forward engages high gear and it is linked to the low pedal (same as the hand brake lever is on a normal 3 pedal T.)
Straight up it's in neutral.
Pulled back it engages reverse.
I understand it's a little awkward to get good leverage to keep reverse engaged. I've never driven one.
I have some video of Trent driving (and backing up) #839 in Richmond at the Centennial. If you have Picasa, I can share it.
: ^ )
I had no idea the numbers on two levers ran that high?? Bud.
How many came out of the factory that way and when was the "modification" offered?
I thought that driving a 2-lever would be much more difficult than it was. The thing that makes it easy is that the reverse lever also puts the car in neutral. So you just pull the lever back and the car backs up. In that sense it is easier than a three pedal Model T where you have to hold the low speed pedal half way down to put the car in neutral (or pull the emergency brake lever back) while pushing down on the reverse lever.
In 2008 it was not clear when the last time #839 was actually run under it's own power. Records like that could not be found. Prior to taking the car to Richmond, Dereck Moore, THF's chief of conservation, spend quite a bit of time cleaning, inspecting, and replacing some parts before starting it up. The NH carb found on the car was left there because 1) THF did not have a correct 5 ball Kingston, and 2) the known reliability of an NH (don't we all start our cars for the first time on NHs?).
I found the engine was quite peppy, and the transmission operated smoothly and quitely. We only drove around the central building a couple of times, and barely got it into high gear on the back side before it was time to slow for the next turn. Dereck rode with me the whole time.
At the end of the run, Keith and I helped load the #839 and "Old 999" on the chartered transportation company semi for the trip back to Dearborn. Dereck prepared the car for its return to long term storage, but the next time it is needed to run, it will be much easier to put back into operation.
Trent, did that one still have the waterpump?
Well the ownership i think explains why the numbers on two levers go that high? RD,Just mhop the way the first 2500 were built i think even Royce would have to keep the pump?? Bud.
All the early Fords are fascinating and the first 2500 Model Ts had a lot of unique items as Ford worked to launch the new car as he continued to improve it.
Ricks -- yes #839 from the Henry Ford Museum that Trent drove is a water pump two lever Model T. The thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/35743.html has additional information about #839 and even some comments from the Grandson of the original owner. It would have been one of the last if not the last two lever produced.
Of course back then the cars were assembled at stations and not on an assembly line. So there would have been a time of overlap when both two-lever and single lever cars were produced. That same overlap is true for the water pump and thermo-syphon engines. In general most references indicate the water pump engines were used in the first 2500 cars. But if you look at Bruce McCalley’s out of print book “Model T Ford” page 480 and 481 or his “Comprehensive Model T Encyclopdeia” [available http://mtfca.com/encyclo/mccalley.htm and from the vendors] from the listing of shipping documents we see that engine/car #2,448 shipped Apr 22, 1909 was the first thermo-syphon engine car and 2455 shipped May 1 was the 2 Thermo-syphon engine car. Car 2,456 was listed as a thermo-syphon engine car shipped May 5. And Car 2500 was listed as Thermo-syphon and was shipped 4 May, 1 day before # 2,456. So during that change over period it is documented that both types of engines were used. Since engine #2500 was actually a thermo-syphon engine, why do we always see “the first 2500 cars were water pump engines?” I think that is due in part to the “Price List of Parts” that starting during 1912 often carried the “water pump” unique engine parts in a section labeled “Order the following parts for cars Numbering Below 2500” So while not exact enough for planning landing on the moon, the 2500 figure is still a good reference point between the very early Model Ts and the normal production 1909 cars.
Hap l915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.
Bob Trevan from Australia requested that I add a couple of photos of his 1909 Water Pump 3 pedal touring to this thread. Below is a photo taken back in the late 1970s showing Bob on the left and Edsel Ford II on the right.
A close up of the two of them taken the same day also appeared in the May – Jun 1979 “Vintage Ford” page 19, but doesn’t show much of the car. But the same issue on page 18 did include the photo shown below of his car:
Below is another picture from the late 1970s showing the engine and his then “young helper.”
Another shot of his car’s re-restoration that I really like clearly shows the rivets holding the reinforcement “fish plate” that was riveted to the early frames to make them stronger.
You can read more about Bob’s T and other early Fords at: http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/trevan/trevan.html
Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.
Hap, sure/yes/no,and none of the above??
What most forget was the early Fords and T's were assembled cars built by others with parts ordered by Ford in [lots] supplied by others??
Bud, PS/BS, Over 100 years later there are still new 1909's being built and passed off as real?