How do you straighten a pan with out the KR jig?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: How do you straighten a pan with out the KR jig?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dexter Doucet, Lafayette, LA. on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 09:28 pm:

Can it be done?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 10:16 pm:

Dexter
Fundamentally the KRW pan jig is a surface plate which allows you to flatten the engine and transmission pan surface. But there is much more. There are also index fixtures for the crank pin hole, ball cap hole and transmission arms which allows you to obtain complete horizontal, lateral and vertical alignment of the engine pan.
Anything else is half vast.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 10:33 pm:

Ron is absolutely correct. In addition, there are dowel pins on the surface of the jig to measure the spacing of the pan bolt holes. Often, particularly in early pans, the width has narrowed over time. The pan pictured is one of these. I will have to put a hydraulic jack in the pan across the flywheel plane to restore it to correct width. This pan will take hours of work. Most need less than a half hour. I have yet to put a pan on the jig that needed no adjustment. Many need only flattening the dished areas around the bolt holes.
ErikPan jig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 10:40 pm:

Eric,that pan should justify any labor you put into it.(G)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dexter Doucet, Lafayette, LA. on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 10:43 pm:

Thanks Guys, I was asking this for a friend of mine. I don't know of anyone in Louisiana who has
a KRW pan jig.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 10:47 pm:

Erik
I apologize I forgot to mention the surface plate dowel pins.
I sold my KRW pan jig and used it for years. Knowing how it works and using it is an art.
You should take and post photos on the use of your KRW pan jig showing all Forum members the importance, method of use and benefit/reason for it's use.
I am sure it would be immensely popular Forum post particularly because of this little understood Model T engine rebuilding details.
Ron the Coilman.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Lang - Brentwood Bay BC on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 10:54 pm:

Yes, I would be interested in the use of the pan jig.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 11:19 pm:

The pan is from the 1910 project I am working on. It is one of the pans Ron Brown made using a forged insert welded to a later pan. This is why it needs extra correction. As Jack states, it will be worth the effort.
Ron, you are correct about using the jig. It is a stern taskmaster. Nothing less than perfect is acceptable to it. I will endeavor to take detailed photos of the various correction procedures. I have invested a great deal of money and labor in my jig. I did this because I can't guarantee my main bearings and crankshafts unless I know they will be used with a straight pan. It's crucial!
There must be someone in the Gulf coast area who has one. In the past I have picked up pans in Chickasha and delivered them to Bakersfield straightened. Shipping a T pan is costly.
Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 11:56 am:

Erik - I agree that pictures showing the use of the pan jig would be very educational to all of us on the Forum. A video showing how to push and pull, use heat, etc. to straighten a pan would also be most welcome. Thanks in advance for all your work on this.

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 12:22 pm:

Fortunate for me, within hour drive, a club member has a KRW jig.

Lucky, this one I cleaned, painted, then had checked out...was dead on. Just a little paint chipping on the flange for some bolt holes, and ready to go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Oder on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 12:23 pm:

If someone wants to provide me with dimensioned sketches, I volunteer to make Autocad drawings so the thing can be reproduced. Having a 15,000 lb P&W Jig Bore, I know all about getting holes accurately on location.

It does not have to be a casting - KRW used that because it was a cheap way to make lots of them.

A Blanchard ground shape burned 2" steel plate machined as needed on legs would serve as well.

John Oder


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 12:57 pm:

Is that KRW jig solid steel? How much does one weigh?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 01:33 pm:

Here is some info from the past on replica pan jigs. And yes the KRW is solid...weighs a bunch and they sell for a whole lot more than scrap weight too :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By willie k cordes on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 01:39 pm:

John, I like your idea about the 2 inch steel plate. I think a back yard welder like myself could do that. A few dowel pins and all. It might not look that good, but it would get the job done and that is what it is all about to me, not for show. After all the requirements are that the pan lays flat front to back and the bolt holes line up with a real block. (width)
If I found a real one at a good price, I would buy it, but they do not seem to show up at swap meets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 03:00 pm:

As weak as those pans are I think Freds method works fine. But to each his own!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 03:31 pm:

1/14 plate works fine. Does not need to be Blanchard ground. The crankcase blueprint is all that is needed for a pan jig along with some reverse engineering. That will locate the holes. Any straight pan will locate the holes.pan jig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 03:32 pm:

OOPS. Thats 1 1/4 plate


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 04:07 pm:

Here is my home made pan jig
Toon
203r
204r
205r
206r
207r
208r


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 07:05 pm:

You could use a long straight edge rule or piece of sheet metal to check it longitudinally. A couple of levels could be used at each end to check it for twist.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 07:22 pm:

Ted, you can measure it that way but how are you going to bring it back to straight with out the massive plate?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 09:53 pm:

When you bolt a twisted pan to a block it flatens out. The dimpleing of the bolts holding the pan to the hogs head and block can easly be pulled out with a couple of sockets and a bolt through them. Fred uses a wood block and a heavy hammer while the engine is on its nose checking 4th alignment. If it does not align a few smacks with the hammer will put it in alignment.
If the pan were cast iron you could not do that but its a wimpy hunk of sheet metal that is easly bent. Other points can easly be checked with a tape.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 10:41 pm:

What a bunch of BS.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Seager on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 12:35 am:

Dexter, I am sure it can be straightened reasonbly close using your engine block and a good flat surface, If you have a 26 27 block and hogs head, you could bolt it together and make a flat surface to check it with. Once you line up the crank and transmission it becomes quite obvious if your pan is not straight. With a small jack and a 2x4 you can bend the pan all over the place. I dout this would be considered BS. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dexter Doucet, Lafayette, LA. on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 01:10 am:

Thanks to you all. I need to make my own jig one day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 08:46 am:

The question at the start of this thred was is there another way then a pan jig. I am not degradeing the effort done with the pictures. Just stateing that Fred has a hundred times more expierance the most of us do. I have tested those pans a hundred times more then most others have. The best you can hope for with a pre 26 is good alignment on the 4th on engine assembly. How long its lasts is another issue.


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