"Rust-O-Leum Gloss Black Appliance Epoxy " in an aerosol can

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: "Rust-O-Leum Gloss Black Appliance Epoxy " in an aerosol can
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 09:43 am:

Here are several pictures of a 1926 left front fender I painted to list on ebay tonight. I wanted to share some pictures of it with you and tell you how incredibly pleased I am with the paint I used on it, which is "Rustoleum Gloss Black Appliance Epoxy" in an aerosol can purchased from the shelf of "Lowes" (also available at "Home Depot").

Most aerosol spray paints dry so fast that, if you take too long on a job, the first areas sprayed start drying and the overspray from the following areas settle on the glossy first area and dull the gloss. The great thing about this paint is that it stays wet long enough to absorb any overspray that is applied to later areas so that when you are done, you have a gloss that is so high it appears to be wet and no further work is required. It also has very good vertical application qualities which causes the paint to stay put without running (if applied correctly).

Every epoxy I have ever used has 2 parts which must be mixed together prior to application, so I'm not sure how this aerosol epoxy works. All I know is that it goes on beautifully in a deep black (not blue-black) finish and is rock hard.

This fender has one thick coat on it and was done using a little over half a can. I could see painting an entire car with this paint and ending up with superior results. I just wanted share my very satisfying results with this product, with you all. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Edward J. Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 09:53 am:

Wow, those look good. Wish you were closer, my Fordor fronts need a LOT of work. I would like to buy yours and sell mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.M.Head in St Sauveur Quebec Canada on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 10:04 am:

Hmmm.. I have a chassis to paint.....been blasted and primed, but some rust spot showing....hmmmmm. Woudl you post a pic of the can....might becalled something else up her, but look about the same (things get translated to be sold here)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.M.Head in St Sauveur Quebec Canada on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 10:14 am:

Actually, I found their Cdn HQ online. Interestingly, the paint is fish oil based.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 10:54 am:

WOW, thanks jim for sharing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 10:57 am:

Here is a picture of the aeosol can (gloss black has a gloss black lid) and the label with specs, which I got from the Rustoleum site. I didn't know it, but according to the site, it also comes in gallon cans for spray gun applications. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George...Cherry Hill, NJ on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 10:59 am:

Jim,

Kudo's on your work and shared experience, they do look great!

Now...haha...care to share how much prep and what prep sequence you did before thinking of finish coat in order to get such a finish? Goes along a bit to another thread :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 11:48 am:

Graingers sells Rustoleum.
In their catalog it mentions painting cars with it.
I have an MGB and a '26 Ford touring pinted with Rustoleum.
I use a 4" roller and roll on 2 coates 12 hours apart then wait a day and sand it smooth and roll on two more coats and sand & polish.
You don't need primer, you can paint over rust and the price is right.
The rattle cans get expensive and the colors often vary. Painting black fenders black though does work well with rattle cans.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Rigdon on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 12:58 pm:

Thanks for sharing the tip Jim. I'll try some.

Bill R '25 Fordor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By alan mitchell on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 01:05 pm:

before you guys run out and invest your time and money you'd better check the Rustoleum website for some reason they recommend this paint for indoor use only.I don't know why,I'm sure there is a reason, so buyer beware


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 01:14 pm:

The reason they may say indoors only is the word Epoxy. Most epoxy paint will chauk in the sunlight, UV breaks them down. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By alan mitchell on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 01:20 pm:

I went to the Rustoleum site and could not find any info on why it's only for indoor use, the only things I could think of were temperature variables, UV affect and it did mention it was water resistant not water proof, I don't know if any of this makes sense, maybe contact them with your concerns beforehand and post the results on the forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 02:27 pm:

Epoxy powdercoat will chalk in sunlight. Polyester powdercoat is not near as strong, but doesn't chalk.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 02:40 pm:

That fender looks beautiful. If it is as pretty in person as it is on camera, it's a keeper.

I understand it rains a lot in Florida, and also that there is much bright sunlight, so it will be a good test to see how the paint does in the weather.

Keep us informed on whether the paint stays that beautiful over time.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 02:42 pm:

Reminds me of a kid I went to school with who painted his Mercury Montego with spray bomb paint.

Looked pretty good for a few months, then it went to hell in a hurry. For the money he had tied up in spray can paint it wouldn't have been much more to step up & get some actual automotive paint or take it to Maaco. It certainly would've lasted a lot longer.

Spray can paint is so thin, it doesn't give you hardly any mils of paint per coat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 03:10 pm:

I just noticed that there seems to be some sort of contradiction on the label of the can. The can says "Appliance Epoxy", while in smaller letters below it says "Ultra Hard Enamel", which is probably more accurate as to the type of paint this is and explains why no mixing of activator is necessary. Perhaps being an enamel will make it more durable and less prone to the above concerns some have regarding the deterioration of epoxies.

All in all, this is by far, the best gloss black paint I have ever had the pleasure of using, beating every other black paint I have used in my 40 years of involvement in Model T's.

Anyone who has done any painting knows that 90% of the job is preparation and 10% is application. One must keep in mind that Rustoleum has no control over who uses this product. That everyone, from the professional painter, with decades of experience, to the novice, who has never held an aerosol can of paint in his life can use this product. With this in mind, sometimes I think that paint companies print disclaimers, such as, "moisture resistant", to protect themselves from mistakes made by newbie painters so that if they receive a complaint from someone who applied their product over a poorly prepared surface, the paint company can use the disclaimer to protect themselves. Another example of protecting themselves from the novice painter is advising the painter, in the instructions, to apply several thin coats instead of one thick coat, when one thick coat will suffice and look better and much more glossy and shiney than several thin coats, if applied carefully and correctly, but most novice painters do not know how to spray the paint so as to prevent buildup at each edge, or how much to spary on before it starts to drip, run and sag, but if it does drip run or sag, they are protected by their instructions to apply several thin coats. Only problem is, several thin coats will not give you the results in the pictures above. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana USA on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 03:13 pm:

I tried some of that same product on carburetor parts and the paint turned to jelly as soon as it got gasoline on it. It was a hell of a mess to get off. I didn't want to bead blast the parts. What a mess. Free almost full can to the first person who comes by and picks up the tab for lunch. =)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 03:40 pm:

I haven't used Rustoleum Epoxy, but I did use another brand of spray appliance epoxy gloss black paint back in the mid '90's. It had a far better gloss than any other spray paint that I had tried. It lasted about six months out in the weather. Turned flat black. Standared rustoleum paints do the same thing, but it does take much longer to do it. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 03:40 pm:

The fenders look very nice. About the interior use only I talked to Rust-Oluem tech support and they said it was too hard to stand up to temperature extremes and would not hold up to sunlight. However if you think about it most quality old cars spend 99+% of the time indoors. I'm sure that even when used on appliances that they could be exposed to direct sun at times and maybe heat from heaters and such. Maybe for the Model T fenders it would be just fine.

Just keep the gas off of it just as you keep brake fluid off of more modern cars.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 03:49 pm:

Uncle Stan,I could use the paint,but fear I could buy a whole case cheaper than our lunch!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 03:50 pm:

Well, how do you think the original gilsonite held up? It turned flat in about a year, according to a prior student on this subject, Reid Welch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 04:10 pm:

Without a little experimentation, I can't be sure, but I can say that from experience with high quality gloss paints that, judging by the high quality gloss of this paint, if this paint were to start oxidizing over a period of time exposed to sunlight, it would take only a few minutes of work with some glazing compound to take off a milimeter of oxidation to bring out the shine from the underlying layer. I should point out that the fender has no wax on it whatsoever, but if it did, it would look even better and be that much more protected from the weather.

I don't know about you but I don't worry too much about this paint being merely "moisture resistant", as, the only time my two garage kept Model T's ever see water is when I hand wash them. I don't even use a hose, because there are areas that I definitely do not want exposed to water such as the door window slits, the cowl vent the fender and body seams and the wooden spokes, but that's just me. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dolo F, South Texas on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 07:13 pm:

The fenders look gorgeous. As stated before, how many whole days does one of us leave that car out in the sun? Refrigerators that belong to families with little kids probably get washed a whole lot more, and the ice/water dispenser areas are prone to rust as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 09:01 pm:

Thank you for the compliments Edward, Tyrone, George, Norman and Dolo. Compliments from fellow Model T'rs are much more valuable than compliments from those that don't know what is involved. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 09:57 pm:

Almost thirty years ago I used flat black epoxy paint in rattle cans for chassis parts (springs, shocks, braces, etc.) on the Packard. It has held up very well. I also used flat black epoxy on the head of my '23 touring. A dose of car polish gave it a nice satin finish.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 11:15 pm:

Very nice Steve. In the age of cast iron wood burning stoves, the bare metal was protected by applications of stove black polish. I'll bet stove polish would provide a nice finish to high heat surfaces such as cast iron engine blocks. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.M.Head in St Sauveur Quebec Canada on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 12:10 am:

I called their 1-800 number, and emailed them. Their email repeated what their call centre folk said. They also sell under the brand "Tremclad" in Canada. The call centre technician said DO NOT use the epoxy for chassis/car parts - it is for indoor use only [re: UV]. BUT he did suggest I use a Tremclad Professional Series spray enamel, which I have done, over a base coat of Tremclad Rust Primer. As well, I cleaned off rust that was showing through old primer, although they said only worry about rust scales.

While I would paint a body with a gun, a spray can is just fine for chassis and small bits, in a nice gloss black, in my book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 12:22 am:

Jim,I will also aggree the fender looks good.
I was wondering,if someone buys the fender and it does not match the finsh the buyer wants,how compatiable is that paint to a automotive finish?

In a nut shell,for ebay sale,I would think a good coat of primer would be better for the buyer.As a buyer,I would be concerned about not being able to remove all that epoxy if for whatever reason my finish would not be compatiable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 12:24 am:

Also,the professional line of rustoleum or the Hard hat line from Granger,is much better paint.and once it cures it is MUCH more durable against gas and oil than other paints.I do mean alot more durable.But it needs to cure several days to resist the stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 01:19 am:

I'd disclose the fact that it was painted with Rust-oluem spray can paint. I've never painted automotive paint over rustoleum, but I'd bet it wouldn't be too compatible.

I had a Model A Sedan in the shop a few years back that was painted with rustoleum. Getting that crap off was a right b$*&^#@, as it smeared around & clogged up 80 grit discs. At least the rustoleum did protect the metal as it was real nice once I got the paint off.

Mack- We used that Hard Hat line of paint for small jobs at the fabrication shop I worked at. Good stuff, it was impervious to numerous solvents once totally cured. We used Imron for big stuff and that's good stuff too!

I repainted the A Model in Kewanee/Elkpoint Green using the PPG Concept line of paints.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable Kiama Australia on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 01:41 am:

I don't have access to this paint here but if the company doesn't recommend it it for outside use then it definately is an inferior product.

As has been stated preparation is 90% of the job ( in some cases more) and it makes no sense in spending a lot of time priming and filling to a first class standard and then finishing with an inferior product. Especially if you are doing it for yourself. If its for selling on ebay then maybe one needs to mention the paint is only there to show the good condition of the surface.

Never take any notice of labels such as "epoxy" all that means is the base resin is from that group of chemicals. After that its all a matter of degree. Normally epoxies are chosen for their chemical resistance around acids (battery etc) and are not recommended auto top color finishes. The better type would be polyurethane or acrylic urethane as used in the repair trade often these use an epoxy primer.

For paint to work from a spray can it has to be mixed at a low viscosity ( thin) as the nozzle is usually very fine. This makes it appear that the small amount of paint in the tin is actually going a long way. That same amount of a proper 2 part epoxy mixed properly would be all gone in a few seconds from its correctly configured spray gun. Thats why the "spray in thin coats" is usually the instruction if they stated thick or heavy its just going to run and sag.

I would bet money that if a proper auto quality finish was applied over this paint it would attack it and render the surface useless. Something enamel which dries in the air (without chemical assistance ) does as the industrial solvents used are far stronger Stan's comments probably bare that out.

If you had the equipment to actually measure the thickness of the coating it would be a lot thinner than the normal amount applied by conventional means. 5 coats of lacquer is about the same dry thickness as one coat of an enamel.
If you have used lacquer and the viscosity of spray can paint is about the same you will know it has in it more solvent than paint mixed up where as enamel used normally has only about 10% thinner. This means when they dry out only the paint is left behind as the solvent evaporates off.

Jim is right about the ability to produce such a good finish as most cans of paint are designed to do little jobs quickly so they dry fast, drying slower allows you ( if you can apply it well) to spray and overlap the coats so you get a continuous glossy coat.

I have Epoxy enamel on the guards of my Town Car it was applied in 1973 and is still as good as new but it was the top quality enamel. Paints designed for out door use are far more complex to make and cost a lot more than those which would only be inside away from sunlight.

Probably Jim is wishing he never spoke up about his guard painting and we shouldn't be giving him heaps about what he has used but I as I'm sure others as I am are only trying to bring to the attention of everyone that maybe this is not the way one should go if they intend launching into a respray of their Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 01:56 am:

Good post Peter.....

Only reason I say anything about cheap paint or using an incorrect type of paint stems from seeing & dealing with stuff like that firsthand.

I've had to strip more than one car down to bare metal because of improper or just plain junk paint. Kirker comes to mind in the just plain junk dept.

Like you said, all this may save someone some grief down the road.

My theory is why spend all that time making things nice then topcoat it with something that won't hold up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable Kiama Australia on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 02:56 am:

Luke,
Yep, I'm sure most don't know the problems that can occur when the wrong procedures are done. Trouble is time and materials cost so much now days it can be a real expensive stuff up. Here it can cost $800 to $1000 for materials for one car a heap of money to loose if you get it wrong especially if it means backing up a second time for the paint.

I taught auto body paint for 33 years and saw it all and of cause had to try and explain to students how and why its folly not doing it the correct way.

Dealing with major stuff ups in the trade kept me in a good job all those years but it sometimes is frustrating when people ask your advice and then decide that they will do a short cut and make a mess of the whole thing.

A lot of the problems today are that products change so quickly it is easy to not catch up with the new method or procedure needed to do the job properly.

When 2 part enamels came out everyone was used to using lacquers and it took years to get painters to forget what they did and to do it differently.

Your theory is actually common sense:
Decide on the type of finish and then buy the materials for it and follow the correct procedure to achieve the result desired.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Rigdon on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 12:47 pm:

I previously posted that I would try the subject Appliance Epoxy paint. After reading the following input from some obviously informed individuals, I think I will pass. I have had very good luck in the past with color matched paint from Tower paint. Expensive but good quality.

Bill R. '25 Fordor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 01:45 pm:

Thank you for all the valuable input on this paint. Not exactly what I was expecting but honesty is the best policy. Even though the fender looks great, there is the chance that the paint may not hold up and I don't want to subject the purchaser of this fender to the prospect of failure after exposure to the sun and elements.

What do you suggest I do? Based upon what has been said here and the questions raised, there seems no other choice than to end the auction early, remove the paint down to the metal, re-prime it and either sell it primed or apply a coat of Exterior Grade Gloss Black enamel, before re-listing it. How would you all prefer to purchase a fender? Primed only, or primed AND painted?

Opinions?

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 01:55 pm:

See how the auction goes, Jim. If it doesn't sell, refinish it in primer and try again.

Why paint it black when the black you use may not be the same as the black the purchaser will ultimately use?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul O'Neil on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 02:01 pm:

I won't comment on the durability or ease of removal of this paint, but as an ebay buyer, I would appreciate the high gloss this finish produces as an aid in assessing the quality of the fender. That gloss black really shows off the smoothness and would reveal many flaws.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 02:09 pm:

Oh, I forgot to mention and it is along the lines of what Paul just said:

Use the darkest gray primer that you can - PPG's MP181 1K urethane would be my choice.

Wetsand until pretty.

Place the fender under a shade tree on a cloudy-bright day so that when the fender is wet, you can see reflections from the shade tree above it.

Spray it down with water and immediately take your digipics with no flash.

Explain in your listing what you have done to show off the quality of the primed and ready-to-paint fender.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 02:22 pm:

Thanks, Seth. I have just ended the auction and will not sell the fender, for now, because I can't risk someone buying it based on its' looks, only to have the paint go bad after a short time of exposure to the elements.

Since it is already painted, I am now curious and am going to use this opportunity to conduct an experiment and sit this fender in the sun and rain to see what happens to the finish. If the finish stays shiney for 6 solid months of exposure, I will be satisfied that it is good paint and sell it as is. If the finish dulls, oxidizes, alligators checks or fails in any way, I will strip it and re-prime it with a good quality 2 part epoxy primer, capable of taking any type of paint, be it epoxy, lacquer, or enamel and let the winner determine the type of paint color and finish he wants on his fender. I will post the results of my experiment along with pictures. If this turns out to be an easy to use high quality paint that I though it was when I started this thread, I, for one, would like to know so I can use it with confidence.

Thanks again everyone. Your honest assessments have helped me avoid an embarassing situation of possibly selling an inferior product to an unsuspecting buyer. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard E. Henza on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 02:56 pm:

Jim;

Was at National Car clubs and Historical Vechicals Ass. U.S.A and Canada.

The Rust Olium is 100% what they recommend in 2011 with this New EPA Rulling on Painting and Requirring a $100,000 Spray Both to use Professional Paint in 2011.

Richard E. Henza


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 03:48 pm:

Okay. The experiment begins this date, November 10, 2010. I'll check it each week and we'll see what happens.

The fender is outside, totally exposed to the elements, all day, in a fenced in dog pen, so it will be protected from varmints and so the Sandhill Cranes won't pick at their reflections.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Lytle on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 03:50 pm:

I've put a lot of time into thoroughly sandblasting my '22/'23 Centerdoor Sedan body. I wanted to protect it from re-rusting and so applied 'rust killer' (contains acetone etc) that i purchased from Napa Auto. Then i applied self-etching primer. I'm embarrased to admit i can't remember the brand of black spray-can paint i've applied over top of that (it was a brand recommended by the 'paint expert' of that particular store..I had asked for someone knowledgeable of paint -rather than just some 'joe high-school kid clerk'). I knew any spray-can paint may be a risk, but i only did it as a safeguard against further rust 'til i could afford a professional paint-job. I appreciate reading all your input in this matter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 05:09 pm:

I got to thinking about Stan's problem with the Rustoleum when he used it on a carburetor. I had no trouble at all after I used the flat black epoxy on my NH. I thought maybe it was a difference between Rustoleum and Krylon, then it occurred to me what I did with the carburetor after I painted it. I hung it in the walk-in oven at the sign factory and let it cook at 180 for several days. Maybe that's why we got different results.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L. Vanderburg on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 05:27 pm:

Mr. Henza, (I have been waiting for you to show up):

Show us a link that proves there was a "consensus" among the registered organizations for your outfit, and that it wasn't just a bunch of guys getting together and saying: "Gee, now that ol' daddy guvment says we can't paint outside, let's use Rust Olium!" (your spelling)

This document http://www.ccar-greenlink.org/SP2%20Newsletter/Paint%20Rule%20Article-Schauls%20 0912.pdf goes into details pertaining to the "6H" rule.

This document (within the previous document): http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/area/paint_stripb.pdf , which is the EPA brochure on the subject of automotive painting and stripping, specifically states that the "6H" rules DO NOT APPLY to any person that paints or strips their own car, whether for hobby or maintenance purposes, on their own property, so long as they don't do more than TWO cars PER YEAR.

How's about that?!!?!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable Kiama Australia on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 05:46 pm:

Jim, It will be interesting to see what happens to the paint exposed to the weather. I suspect it will be like "Watching the kettle boil" nothing much will appear to be happening for a while.

Obviously you wanted to sell the guard and get your money and either way you still will be doing so. You havn't mentioned what prep work you did under the black. Is it just primer or was there filling including plastic filler?

If the guard is a good one with only primer ( you stated it would need to be stripped and reprimed) then I would use solvent and wash off the black. If the primer is lacquer based enamel thinner will remove the black and leave the primer alone. If you do this now it will come off a lot easier than down the track.

You can then prepare the primer as suggested to sell on ebay and I would even make a point that the guard is in great condition with little or no heavy filling needed to apply the black of choise. Come to think of it the photo of it in the black with an explanation would help too.

If you want to check the performance of the black make up a small test panel and expose it instead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JOHN ROSSI. BRANFORD, FL on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 06:14 pm:

Glad you chose the 235th anniversary of the United States Mrine Corps to start the experiment...So 10 May 2011 should be the day of Reckoning...Semper Fi, Jim.... Jack


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dolo F, South Texas on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 06:15 pm:

About 25 years ago I had a beautiful red 2dr Mercury Marquis. Don't know the reason, but the hood above the battery began to corrode. It was one little spot on the whole car. I fixed the hole and painted it with the closest red Rustoleum I could find. The paint in the little square I fixed lasted better than the car paint did, and was harder to remove when we had it repainted about 5 years later. Just my 2 bits as you guys say, but that's my experience with Rustoleum as car paint, it was, however just the regular stuff, and not appliance paint.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 09:54 am:

Can anyone suggest a way to control this experiment to make the results as objective and trustworthy as possible? How about a way to protect one portion from the elements so it can be inspected each month or after the experiment. I was thinking about putting a piece of Duck (duct) tape over one area in the middle of the fender so a before and after comparison can be checked side by side, but I'm not sure if the duct tape adhesive will damage the finish. I will basically ignore this fender during the experiment and take a picture of it once per month and post the pictures here to document the results.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 10:05 am:

I would put it back on tbay with explanation about the paint. Who knows, maybe a museum needs that fender just as it is.

Meanwhile you can paint a post on your fence, and see if the shady side stays shiny.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 10:22 am:

That's a good idea Ralph, but I'm in no hurry to sell it as I don't really need the money and am now more curious than anything. Here is my main motivation. When I first posted this thread, recommending this paint, it was because there are many here that do not have the expertise to use a professional spray gun, the money to afford a compressor and gun, or the money to afford a professional painter to paint their cars, but are able to afford and spray with an aerosol can, so I was hoping that, if we could find a superior, high gloss, deep-black (not blue-black), aerosol paint that will give professional results with a durability to match, with a minimum of cost and effort, it would be worth it to determine if this paint is as good as I think it is, or as bad as many fear. I think it is worth it to find out with an actual fender with a thick, well applied coating as would be applied by most experienced painters. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas J. Miller on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 04:15 pm:

Another 2 cents worth. I had a 55 T-Bird in 63 and primed the car w/rustoleum. The professional painter told me to wait for 30 days before he would paint the car to allow for the fish oil to dry. I did & he did. And finish lasted quite some time - looked great & seemed to last well.

More recently on my T, I had all fenders and black areas powder coated in black. After cleaning all the rusted areas and coating with powder coating they said that the depressions from rust would fill with the powder coating. After 4 attempts the depressions would NOT fill. I could wet sand and buff to get smooth shiny finish. The painter of the body told me that each layer I sanded or buffed thru would have "fish eyes". He used the powder coating for the primer and painted over the black parts. They came out great but too expensive for both systems to be used.
Nick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable Kiama Australia on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 07:16 pm:

Nicholas, for future reference the reason the powder coating didn't fill the depressions in the metal is because the powder is applied by an electrostatic process where the powder is attracted to the metal by magnetism.

It always puts on an even coating as it searches out the thinnest area as its easier to get the attraction. So when they put the powder on the metal it wil only put on the same thickness everywhere. As much as they try to fill the hole the metal around it pulls the powder to it before it lets more into the dip.

What they should have done after the initial coating was to sand the low spots and remove the coating from around the depressions. If enough was initially put on the dip would be filled.

Once the surface was flat and smooth a second coat would have come out fault free. Powder coating will only produce a finish the same as the substrate it is covering.

By the way the finish you now have would be a lot better than powder as a coating for your fenders if it is a proper auto paint.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dolo F, South Texas on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 07:29 pm:

Thank you ahead of time. Jim, for postponing profit for the greater good. I am very interested in your results.

A p.s. on my own T paint job, I noticed after that long avoided closer look, that one of the rivets on my front fender had been covered over with filler. I had worked so hard to maintain it's profile. The one on the other side was as it should be. I've decided to get my money's worth and just drive it like it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier, MS. on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 06:02 pm:

Jim,
Interesting experiment. How about a small sample piece painted and kept protected from the elements as a reference?

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 06:19 pm:

Good idea Bob. I was thinking of some way to protect a portion on the actual fender to be inspected as we go, but want to be careful to use a tape that will not damage the finish. Grey Duct tape breaks down and leaves a sticky residue after a short period of exposure to the elements, but Ralph introduced me to "Gaffers tape", in another thread, which I looked up at McMaster Carr and discovered it to be durable and easy to remove, so I may get a roll of that to use over the area I choose to protect. If an area of finish is protected on the fender, any breakdown on the unprotected area will be easy to see in comparison. Thank you for your interest and input. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 06:39 pm:

How about just using a $1.00 metal "For Sale" sign that you can probably buy where you bought the paint that you have almost a half can of? Cheaper than some silly roll of gaffer's tape....

Wet sand the screen-printed side, spray paint it and when dry, place it on top of the green barrel in the dog kennel.

Bring the fender indoors.

What if a big wind comes up and blows that fender off the green barrel?

This was Peter's idea by the way! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier, MS. on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 06:47 pm:

Big wind? Florida?
Nah!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 05:10 am:

Maybe I'm missing the point but what difference would the paint used make other than not being compatable with another formula. Friend of mine used krylon on his and it still looks good. How many of yall leave your T outside all the time? Have fun, KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 09:00 am:

I appreciate your concern for the welfare of the fender. I too am concerned about leaving it outside for seveal months and don't want to see it damaged or deteriorated.

I am still convinced that Rustoleum intentionally under evaluates their aerosol paints to protect themselves from the majority of amateur painters out there that will most likely do something wrong in the surface preparation that will cause the results to be less than satisfactory. That way they are covered. ottom line is, we can all use a high quality, deep gloss black aerosol paint for those smaller jobs, especially those that can't afford the equipment or can't afford the high cost of having it done professinally, only to suffer what Delores had to go through with her "professional painter".

I guess I could do the same experiment using a piece of sheet metal as several have suggested and accomplish the same thing, but it wouldn't be as well documented as the fender is, but, on the other hand, in a way, leaving the fender outside is unrealistic too, as I have never heard of a T owner leaving his car outdoors for months at a time. Heck. Most of us avoid leaving our T's outside overnight or even driving, if it looks overcast. There are alot of factors to consider

I don't relish the thought of stripping this fender down of a possibly poor quality paint, only to find out later that the paint is as superior, durable and weatherproof, as a high priced auto paint, but I guess the consensus is, that is what I should do and apply an expensive high grade epoxy primer compatible with all paints (such as PPG's DP74LF) in order to sell it, so the buyer can apply his own paint and color over the primer. It is ashame though, for as you can see, it sure is purty, for now and might be just what someone is looking for, as is, to complete his garage kept car, but as I said earlier, I can't sell it to someone who buys it based on its' current appearance, only to have it begin to deteriorate shortly afterwards (which I sincerely feel, won't happen).

Just by reading this post you can see how torn I am, but I respect your concerns and opinions and will give it somemore thought and figure what the best thing to do is for the eventual buyer, the fender and for the integrity of the experiment. Thank you for your concern and for your input.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 09:00 am:

I appreciate your concern for the welfare of the fender. I too am concerned about leaving it outside for seveal months and don't want to see it damaged or deteriorated.

I am still convinced that Rustoleum intentionally under evaluates their aerosol paints to protect themselves from the majority of amateur painters out there that will most likely do something wrong in the surface preparation that will cause the results to be less than satisfactory. That way they are covered. ottom line is, we can all use a high quality, deep gloss black aerosol paint for those smaller jobs, especially those that can't afford the equipment or can't afford the high cost of having it done professinally, only to suffer what Delores had to go through with her "professional painter".

I guess I could do the same experiment using a piece of sheet metal as several have suggested and accomplish the same thing, but it wouldn't be as well documented as the fender is, but, on the other hand, in a way, leaving the fender outside is unrealistic too, as I have never heard of a T owner leaving his car outdoors for months at a time. Heck. Most of us avoid leaving our T's outside overnight or even driving, if it looks overcast. There are alot of factors to consider

I don't relish the thought of stripping this fender down of a possibly poor quality paint, only to find out later that the paint is as superior, durable and weatherproof, as a high priced auto paint, but I guess the consensus is, that is what I should do and apply an expensive high grade epoxy primer compatible with all paints (such as PPG's DP74LF) in order to sell it, so the buyer can apply his own paint and color over the primer. It is ashame though, for as you can see, it sure is purty, for now and might be just what someone is looking for, as is, to complete his garage kept car, but as I said earlier, I can't sell it to someone who buys it based on its' current appearance, only to have it begin to deteriorate shortly afterwards (which I sincerely feel, won't happen).

Just by reading this post you can see how torn I am, but I respect your concerns and opinions and will give it somemore thought and figure what the best thing to do is for the eventual buyer, the fender and for the integrity of the experiment. Thank you for your concern and for your input.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 10:20 am:

For what it's worth, I just went out to the barn and looked at some of the parts I painted with appliance epoxy rattle cans about a year and a half ago (steering column, headlight buckets & rims). They look fine. They were baked, not just air dried, and they haven't been left outside, but how many people other than Truly Nolen leave their antique cars outdoors? I expect that kind of paint will hold up very well on cars that are garaged.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John L. Zibell, Jr. on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 11:09 am:

When I was growing up (1950s and 60s) the farm was next door to a sand and gravel operation. Their fleet of trucks were only painted with Rustoleum. Their trucks didn't rust, they stayed outdoors all the time. This is pretty good for New England. They didn't use the Rustoleum epoxy, but the old formulation. After a few years in the sun, the red paint would fad somewhat and loose it gloss, but it still protected well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 11:12 am:

I went out and bought a can of the new Rustoleum epoxy black yesterday to use on an engine pan, I figure it will be better able to withstand gasoline. I'll find out! Thanks for the tip.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 03:33 pm:

Larry, I'd bake it for a couple of days rather than just air drying.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 09:17 am:

Okay, I've been thinking about this all weekend, taking in all the considerations of the members who voiced concerns and ideas and here's what's going to happen.

I'm going to bring the fender in and put it on ebay along with a link to this thread, which explains everything. I am also going to offer the option to the winner that, if he chooses not to retain the finish, currently on the fender, I will prime the fender with epoxy primer compatible with any paint he chooses. I don't think I can be any more fair and upfront than this.

As for the experiment, I will take four pieces of 12" X 12" sheet steel and prime and paint each one identically, using this Rustoleum gloss black "Appliance Epoxy":

1. One piece will be placed outside fully exposed to the elements.
2. One piece will be placed outside, protected from the rain by a plexiglass box, but exposed to the UV rays of the sun only.
3. One will be placed in a non climate controlled garage, protected from the elements, but exposed to the temperatures of the day and
4. One will be placed inside, in a climate controlled room.

I will monitor them and take pictures of them side by side, once per month to see the effects of time and how the various conditions affect them and post the results and I will keep the experiment going indefinitely. I will keep you posted on this thread by posting the pictures of the results. Thank you all for your input. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 09:36 am:

One more experiment: see the thread on tire flaps, and use this epoxy paint on the inside of a rusty clincher rim. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 11:22 am:

Jim, while I appreciate your sincerity and concern with what you're selling on e-bay, I think that a small note that said "that's a spray can paint job" would have been more than sufficient to warn the buyer, that it might not be the final paint job.
Obviously, the buyer is getting a nice, straight fender. Gloss black shows any flaws and metal imperfections, especially down here in the Florida sun.
Now, if you want to test that paint for something, leave the fender in the dog pen. I'd like to know how it holds up to dog pee and poop bombs from our over sized birds.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 11:59 am:

LOL :D! Thank you Dennis. Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 07:58 am:

Jim, that's one really nice spray can paint job! No lines, no over spray, darn near prefect, no matter what the paint is.
Anytime you feel like coming down here to Englewood and spraying my fenders, you're more than welcome to. As far as making it last, just put a coat of clear over it and call it done.
The first thing I thought of when I saw it was that whoever buys it, probably isn't going to have 3 more that match it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 08:57 am:

Thank you Dennis. There was no one more surprised than me to get such a paint job from a spray can. I've had a a little experience with a spray gun and compressor and a lot of experience with aerosol spraying, but consider myself no better than the average handyman with an aerosl can. When I finished spraying this fender I honestly could not believe my eyes and my wife thinks I'm some sort of Michelangelo :-). It went on like Imron and needed no polishing compound or wax to enhance the shine. I'm anxious to try some polishing compound and wax on it just to see how much more shine I can get out of it. Thanks again. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Rigdon on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 02:51 pm:

Jim: It appears your latest testing routine will take some time but answer our questions. The Rustoleum factory should have an interest in your testing also I would think. At any rate, thanks for the posting and we will be interested in following the project.

Bill R. '25 Fordor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary White - Brownsboro Texas on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 11:35 pm:

Jim,

Any updates?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JAMES STARKEY on Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 12:27 am:

Wow Jim!
I bet you weren't expecting all this reaction. I'll throw my experience in here. I used the same product/brand on the restoration of a 1958 Ariel Police motorcycle from England. I used both the appliance white and the gloss black. I too got fantastic results. That was over a year and a half ago. Granted, I don't leave the bike sitting out in the sun very often but it has sat outside all day in several bike shows and is now starting it's second winter in a cold garage. To date, I see no signs what so ever of oxidation or any change to the glossy finishes. I do wax it frequently. Don't know if this proves anything but since I've used the stuff also I thought I'd mention it. Jimmy

My daughter and 58 Ariel Police


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 12:48 pm:

Jimmy! the bike (and rider) looks great! Fantastic job!

Gary. Update. Regarding the experiment. I have the (4) 12" x 12" plates all cut, as well as the primer and Rustoleum Appliance Epoxy and was going to start the experiment this past weekend by priming the (4) plates, but we had a cold snap and the temperature went down to 40 and it has stayed in the 50's since, which is too cold to paint, so, I have everything ready to start. Just waiting for the weather to cooperate. Perhaps this weekend. The next posting will include pictures documenting the beginning of the experiment then we will go from there by checking the various results each month.

By the way, the 1926 front left fender featured in this thread sold on ebay for $260.00. It was purchased by one of our own in Texas and will be going toward completing a '26 Model T Pickup that has been in parts for 40 years so I'm sure it has found a good home.

Stay tuned. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary White - Brownsboro Texas on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 12:58 pm:

Excellent! Look forward to seeing the results!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 05:54 pm:

Jim, did these fenders go on the 26 you just posted as being finished? are they one and the same?? Great results!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 06:20 pm:

Thanks John. No. The left front fender pictured here was an extra fender I had. I sold it on ebay to help pay for Christmas this year. I thought I would get a lot more than what I got, but that's the way it goes sometimes. My loss is the buyer's gain but it's going towards a good purpose. Helping a fellow member get another T back on the road to enjoy, so I'm happy. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 08:30 pm:

That's why I offer good fenders here first a good 26=7 front fender should bring 400.00 plus


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