2 Wood wheel questions

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: 2 Wood wheel questions
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 12:50 am:

1) I cannot separate the hub assembly on the first wheel (rear) I am taking apart to prepare to re-spoke. The rims were painted after assembly. I do not want to cut the spokes as I would like to see how everything goes together as I take it apart. I choose a rear wheel as it should have very little grease everywhere. I have pounded on the various parts scraped away the paint, soaked with a penetrating oil, but no heat (yet). There is no rust on the components. Any tips on separating the two plates?

2) Is there any issues using 30x 3 ˝” tires on 21” split rims which are mounted on a 30 x 3 ˝” hub assemblies. This is how the car came and I have driven (500 mi) it all summer that way. The T drives nice. I have not noticed any issues with tire wear (35 psi). Should I be concerned?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 01:03 am:

Now that I have read Susan’s post regarding tire pressure I wonder if I really have 30x3 ˝” tires. The only reason I state that is I recall they state their size as 30 x 3.5” - 4.5”. I will have to verify tomorrow night.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 02:04 am:

Jason Given:

I alway have to remove the bolts and then take a punch and large hammer and pound on the square holes in flange. After I moved the flange enough to cover the holes I turn the wheel upside down and drive a bunch through from the other side. I have done many, many wheels and it works for me every time, even rusty ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker - Sumter, SC on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 08:18 am:

Jason,

From you posting at http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/172453.html?1291218245 I understand why you want to replace the Red Oak spokes with the proper and safer hickory spokes. That would be a frustrating place to be – nice looking wheels but not as safe as the hickory spokes. But I commend you for making the decision. How do I know if I am spending too much money or effort on safety? I’ll never know if it was 1 cent or 1 minute more than I needed or thousands more – because I can’t tell. How do I know if I didn’t spend enough money or effort on safety? Easy – I experience a known preventable accident. So I try to follow Mark Twain’s advise, “It is better to be safe a 1000 times than dead once.”

I would like to discus your second question: You asked, “Is there any issues using 30x 3 ˝” tires on 21” split rims which are mounted on a 30 x 3 ˝” hub assemblies.” The answer is yes there are lots of issues. The 21 inch split rims will NOT fit on the 30 x 3 1/2 wheels (the felloes are larger on the clincher style 30 x 3 1/2 demountable rims than they are on the 21 inch balloon tire felloes.) Note from the photo on your profile page is appears you have the 21 balloon style wheels on your chassis (i.e. 21 inch spilt rims mounted to the 21 inch balloon style wheels). The measurement on the tire should read 4.50 by 21.

While the size of the wheel is different between the 21 balloon wheels and the 30 x 3 1/2 Clincher style demountables – the hubs are the same. Ford just had a different wheel mounted on the hub (note there are some variations in hubs – but those are the earlier Model T hubs. When Ford was selling cars with either clincher or balloon style wheels and tires, they used the same hubs on both style wheels. And most folks will not notice the diffences in the T hubs after the tapered rear axle hubs with the 6 inch flanges were introduced. If you want to find out more about some of those differences see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/88181.html?1239705755 – but even those front hubs would fit in the 1926 balloon tires – they just are not as strong on the outer bearing surface and the roller bearings if use, fit better with a thinner washer rather than the standard front wheel washer.

Note -- be careful as you work on the wheels. The spokes were pressed in and they will be under a lot of pressure. Taking apart wheels with worn spokes is relatively easy -- take the flange off and the spoke will drive off with a rubber hammer (or if they are really bad -- the spokes just fall out). But for a rebuilt wheel -- they will be in there good and tight. Hopefully some folks will chime in who have actually taken a strong wheel apart and give you some actual "this worked -- this didn't etc." I would not worry too much about saving the spokes. You only need one for a sample -- (note there may have been different spokes (length or tenon size?) for the balloon wheels -- I don't know off the top of my head if the spokes were all the same or some varied. For the clincher wheels there were several different styles of spokes and they did not interchange). If no one else offers some good suggestions -- my initial guess -- if you cannot work them lose at the hub using Dave's suggestion -- I would consider taking a small drill -- center on the tenon end (the part sticking through the felloe) and drilling a small hole. Working up to larger drills and drilling the wood tenon off. Then with the hub flange already off hit the spoke from the back side and stand well clear. But again -- I've never done one of those -- so it would be better to get a real answer rather than a guess.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Mullin on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 09:59 am:

In line with Hap's post regarding pressed in hubs and tight spokes, you probably need to press the hub back out. At the Piquette Plant we use an old disk brake drum to support the spokes while the large hole in the disk drum permits the hub to move enough to release the hub.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls,WI on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 03:40 pm:

If you would build the press that John Regan has described, all you have to do is put in the wheel and reverse the process. Should work pretty slick.

Wonder how John does it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George...Cherry Hill, NJ on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 03:55 pm:

Jason,

As others have said, sometimes the combination of swelling, age, etc just makes the hubs lock into the bore.

If you don't have a press, be creative and just think it through as there are ways to use a bottle jack or a pump jack and walk that hub right on out of anything...it comes out through the inner side, and you don't want to ruin threads...keep those two in mind, have patience, and you will get there using whatever else you have laying around...

Not cavalier at all to say think it through...in my early years if I had a real stubborn one, I'd just bash at it until parts of the hub shattered and it was the cost to save the rest of the wheel. It didn't dawn on my until later that there was not an endless supply of replacements and what was usually happening was destroying 2 wheels to get one good one!

I haven't done it in a while, but last time I had good spokes on one, and good hub on another spare, don't own a press, but did manage to leverage a pump jack in a way to get the hubs, stuck as they were, to walk out, saving both the hub and the spokes.

Good luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 01:23 am:

Well, I looked at one of my tires this evening. Imagine what is said “Firestone 4.40/4.50-21”. I remembered the 4.5” portion. I almost left the tires with the car which is in winter storage, I am now glad I did not.
I determined the wheel size from looking at the rim on the hub assembly near the hole for the valve steam. There is a bunch of items stamped in the rim. From that information I determined the wheel size was 30x3.5. The rim is stamped with patent information and what looked like the wheel size. However, I could not read the “0” as there is a paint glob over where the 0 should be.

Unfortunately I order a spoke (30x3.5) and it arrived today. So tomorrow I will be ordering the correct spoke.

As for separating the hubs I will try the bottle jack after a removing the paint. My father in-law has a bearing press but I do not think I can get the rim under it.

As for the spokes, the more I get to know the car the more I need to change them. Most of the back wheels spokes are loose. I spoke with the previous owner this week about how he separated the hubs. Well he did not remember. But he told me about how he assembled the wheels without pressing the spokes. He adjusted the length of each spoke until he could place them into place. Now most of the back wheels spokes are loose. They need to be redone and done correctly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker - Sumter, SC on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 08:09 am:

Jason,

If you would please take a photo of the information stamped into the rim. And also a photo of the rim. I may have missed it, but I am assuming the 30 x 3 1/2 rim is an extra rim that you have that does not have a tire mounted on it and that the information would be covered up if the tire was mounted. Did I guess correctly (or did you already say that and I just need to read closer)?

If the spokes are already lose it should come apart easier than if they are all still good and tight.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 08:18 am:

Jason,

From what you have decribed DO NOT drive on those rear wheels. They have to be a press tight fit to be strong. I don't want to critiize but the previous owner sounds like he didn't have a clue what he was doing. This is a good leason to check your wheels regularly.

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 08:20 am:

Oh, and from the trouble you seem to be having getting the wheels apart the previous owner didn't GLUE the spokes and hubs together???? That would make it very hard to separate them..... Just a thought.

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 01:22 pm:

I've had that problem on original wheels. If all the paint has been removed, and you have penetrating oil on the flange where it meets the hub, what I have done is used a punch to rotate the flange, and worked putty knives under the flange in two places. It's frustrating, but with patience, can be done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 01:05 am:

I followed Larry’s method of a punch and putty knives. I rotated the outer flange.

He basically glued the flanges together. Everything was coated in a thick layer of primer and paint.

I will post some pics in the morning. What I call the “rim on the hub assembly near the hole for the valve steam” I believe is actually called a Metal Fellow. These are issues being a newbie, you just do not know what everything is called.

The spokes where tight this spring, but as I drove the car the spokes got looser and looser. I checked them regularly. By spring they will be nice and tight.

I pick up 8/4 shagbark hickory today. I expect way more then I need.

HEY, my password poped in as I typed my username. I wonder if it has been fixed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 04:12 am:

I don't know why any one would have to use a putty knife or any thing else if you just turn the wheel over and install a long thin punch and drive the flange off.
If the wood is still good in your spokes and the only problem is the spokes are now a little short all you have to do is install Push Nut Washers on the ends. That will make the spokes TIGHTER than when they left the factory. The spokes will creek and moan when you press them in but so far none have ever broken.
A460a

I have a wide 50 ton press that works real good for pressing the spokes back in. However if you do use a press you can ruin your flange real easy. Sort through your extra flanges and pick an old rusty throw away flange, one that is already bent. and use it to press the spokes back in. Make sure that your holes line up. You can grind a little out of the center of the throw away flange so it comes back off easy.

YOU DO NOT NEED A PRESS to press the spokes back in. Its best if you have a press because its easier and much quicker. But you can use long carraige bolts and slowly tighten them up until the wheel is flat. Again the spokes will moan, groan and complain but I have never had a spoke beak. Again don't use your good flange use a rusty throw away flange. Then take out the long carraige bolts and replace them with your original bolts, tighten and peen the ends.

A380a

A380c

Last but not least, a lot of guys will try a talk you into winding a piece of metal around the hub to make the spokes move out toward the felloe. Every once in awhile I find that someone has done that in wheels that I am taking apart. DON'T DO THAT. It takes the bolt holes out of alignment and creates a gap between the inner ends of the spokes where they rest against each other.

Also DON'T remove or sand any WOOD away from the area that the flange covers or this will make your wheel come out very crooked.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 10:03 am:

So here are a few pictures. I do not have any good pictures of the patent piece. After taking these pics I removed the paint with a chemical stripper and a brush. That also did not help with photos. But it now looks like it might say 28x3, which is marked fairly clearly on one of my spare fellows. The 28x3 is on a line just above everything you can clearly see. You can kinda see the 3.

pat

As for the spokes on these wheels I expect everyone to be a different length. I do like the idea of the push nut idea.

wheel

wheel2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker - Sumter, SC on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 10:42 am:

Jason,

Thank you for posting the photo of the numbers. It is a good illustration that one place numbers etc. were stamped is close to the valve stem hole in the felloe and that they would be covered up when the rim was installed. And yes that outer metal part that the spokes fit into is called a felloe. On the Ford supplied demountable rim wheels they were always made of metal. On the non-demountable clincher wheels supplied by Ford they are often made of wood but Ford also had some that had metal felloes and were still non-demountable.

Good luck with your spoke turning and wheel restoration.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


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