Polarity

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: Polarity
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Taylor on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 09:54 pm:

After spending a few minutes reviewing recent forum responses, I'm expecting to get badly dumped on for my naieve questions, but hopefully some of the wise asses will back off long enough to allow answers from those who would care to help me out here!!!
Late last winter I purchased what was the pride and joy of a local(Florida) 90yo gentleman -- his '23 Touring, in overall excellent cond. I ran her a few times, and aside from starting hard the first time, she ran quite well. I put her in the garage about mid April and went home to Maine. Just got back and can't get the T started -- a combination of weak battery and bad gas??? I'll likely have several ongoing questions, but the first of which is : The battery is installed with a negative ground! I expect to install a new 8 volt battery; should I hook it up the same way?? I'm quite sure he would have known the difference, and the cables look as though this was an intentional act. Any suggestions?
Secondly -- I don't know the vintage of the fuel in the tank!! Simply drain it and put new in? There is fuel available here with no ethanol, is that advisable?
Thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 10:07 pm:

Yes, connect the battery the same as the old. Model Ts were negative ground.
Drain the tank and the carburetor bowl. I can't tell you if E00 is available at your location--You'll have to do your own looking. Many run E10 without problems though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 10:08 pm:

Congrads on your T ! You will enjoy it!

The Model T IS negative ground. Check the battery condition, check ground and positive posts for corrosion, you need good contacts.

No need for an 8volt battery, a strong 6v is fine.

Yes, drain the gas from under the T at the sediment bulb, old gas is not good, and drain and clean the carb bowl too.

Ethanol up to 10% is common in all gas, the T will be ok with it. For long term storage, always drain the carb bowl and add a gas conditioner to the fuel tank, like Stabil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 10:12 pm:

Dennis - All Model T's were negative ground so your car is wired correctly. As for 8 volts why? Your car should perform great on a 6 volt battery. I use 6 volt batteries and they have always worked great. I would use the no ethanol fuel. Drain the old and fill with no ethanol regular unleaded.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 10:15 pm:

The negative ground is correct for a Model T.

The original battery was 6 volt. An 8 volt will work.

You might try a few drops of oil in each cylinder before trying to start. A long idle period could cause the oil to drain off the rings and lose compression.

If it ran in April, it might run now once you get it to start. If there is not much gas in the tank, you might get it to run by adding more.

Try draining some gas from the sediment bowl and then try draining some from the carburetor. There is a drain cock at the bottom of the carburetor. You should get a steady flow here, if not, you either have not enough gas in the tank, or the fuel line is plugged up. Could be the needle valve in carburetor is stuck closed.

It could be that the carburetor is gummed up from standing a long time and will need cleaning.

Whatever you do, take one step at a time and eventually you will find out why it won't run and fix it.

Good luck.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 10:23 pm:

Dennis, First of all I'd like to welcome you to the forum.

Congratulations on your 23 touring. I hope to see pictures in the future. Everybody loves pictures.

The battery should be installed with a negative ground. If you need a new battery, I would put a new 6 volt battery in it and in the future if you do not plan to use it for a while, disconnect the battery.

I would drain the gas tank and the carburetor, put in new fuel, and try it again.

I don't use ethanol in my model T because I don't drive it often and ethanol in a stored vehicle without a sealed system can draw moisture. I'm not afraid of it and do use it in my modern vehicles. I keep Sta-Bil in my T because I stay very busy, and I never know which drive will be my last for the season. Good luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 10:34 pm:

Norm's oil in the cylinder comment reminded me. If I haven't started mine for a while, I spray a little outboard marine engine fogging oil in the spark plug holes. Just somthing I do for convenience, any oil will work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 11:18 pm:

Dennis, John is correct, would like to see pictures. And welcome! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:19 am:

Before you buy an 8 volt battery make sure what size battery cables are in your car.
If it has 12 volt cables you'll either need an 8 volt battery or new size one cables.
Manya T has had the battery cables replaced with cables hat are too small to start fast and easy with a 6 volt battery.
What I don't understand is why you expected to get dumped on.............


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Taylor on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 09:32 am:

Thank you all for suggestions. I'll try to keep you posted as to progress. Pics will be sometime after Christmas, because I left my camera in Maine and will pick it up when we're home for the Holiday!
A couple of other things : I did put some Marvel oil in the cylinders when I parked it, and turned the gas off, but I didn't unhook the bat. because I thought it was, in effect, "dead ended" at the starter switch. Must have been some leakeage at this connection? Also, I'm finding that this Fl. weather (heat) seems to be even harder on battery life than the Maine cold weather??
And - this isn't my first T, but I've not been a good student, and have a long ways to go in learning the ropes! I bought this '23 and a '31 Model A Vicky from the same gentleman because I just coudn't resist -- the condition of each is so far ahead of anything of anything I've seen up north.
Thanks again.
Take care!
Dennis T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George...Cherry Hill, NJ on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:12 pm:

Dennis,

They all have their idiosyncrasies, a little tweak here and there differences, just be patient as you learn yours.

Do what is said above, but you can make it easier on yourself (and your starter/and your arm) if you come out of cold storage by chocking the front wheels good and tight, raising one of the rear wheels on a good stable jack (I use a hi-lift hydraulic pump arm type) and setting the lever forward. You need to know what you are doing to stay safe as if done haphazardly it WILL jump off the jack and really cause havoc and I'd recommend someone close can show you how the first time. But once a wheel starts to turn, that interia does more than the flywheel it seems. Coughs to life, set spark and fuel, pull the brake back to lock, and lower the jack. Do remember to move the chocks before driving forward :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By willie k cordes on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:25 pm:

Dennis, what are you doing posting such XXXXX questions on the forum, do you not know better???

Dennis, I posted the above to make you feel better since no one jumped on you.

Have fun with the T and the A


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:41 pm:

Willie,

How can you take a new member seriously when they can't or won't fill out the membership application completely? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By willie k cordes on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 01:02 pm:

You have a good point John
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 02:09 pm:

John, I don't think I agree with you about the profile. I have been participating in this forum in one iteration or another for at least 13 years. For a long time, I didn't even have a profile. When it became a necessity to post, I filled it out minimally. Since then, I have added to it somewhat, but I just looked at your profile and mine, and yours has way more information and a picture. I see the profile more as an entry to the forum and a way for people to send me private messages. I also note that I have posted over 2500 messages to the forum in its current embodiment. So, do you not take me seriously because I didn't fill out my profile completely? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Taylor on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 02:14 pm:

OK, OK, I'll give you more personal info.! Later!
Let's keep going.....Drained and replaced gas this mornin'. Got her started and drove around the neighborhood a bit, and it's running "OK" but not great........not as smooth as I'd like. Next suggestion : coils, other ignition or carburetion?
Also - and I should start a new thread for this one - One of the rear doors will not unlatch/open. How do I get the door open, without damaging it, to check out the latch?
Take Care!
Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 04:36 pm:

Dennis - Congratulations on getting it going, now to get it going good you are on the right track. I would start with coils, timer and carburetor. 1st if your coils have not been rebuilt they will need to be. There are several people that can and do rebuild them. Ron the Coilman does a wonderful job or you can buy the video's staring Ron and learn to do it yourself but you will need access to a hand cranked coil tester or strobo spark tester to adjust them properly. 2nd a timer is very important, there are several on the market and there will be just as many opinions on which is the best. I am using the Anderson Timer on my Touring car and have thousands of miles of trouble free driving with it. I'm using a New Day timer on my Sedan and Tractor and have had great results with it. 3rd carburetors. I prefer the Holley NH carburetor for a couple of reasons the main reason however is because they work good and all parts are available. They are simple and easy to restore. You can find previous threads on this forum on how to rebuild one. Lastly make sure your wiring and spark plugs are good. There are again many opinions on spark plugs but good clean spark plugs are important. I run Autolite 3095 spark plugs in my cars with excellent results. I have also use the original Champion X plugs with fine results but there is a huge difference in price. You can get the Autolite plugs at your local parts store for less than $2 each and no shipping costs. The original plugs can cost as much as $20 each or more. I drive my cars several thousand miles each year and have good results with the cheaper plugs. Some of the purists will have a much different opinion. Hope this helps. Contact me pm if you want help with your coils.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 05:14 pm:

Dick,

I can take you seriously because you have so many prior posts. Dennis however now has three posts, and only 2 when as of today when he posted and he signed up yesterday, so without his information I don't even know if he owns a model T, even though he says he does. I just think new members should fill out all the blanks on the application & a picture of their T if they can, especially their location, then if someone is near them they could let the new member know and offer personal help. again, JMHO :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 05:45 pm:

" so without his information I don't even know if he owns a model T, even though he says he does."

If he were going to lie about having an antique car I'm sure it wouldn't be a Model T! And, who cares!

Dennis,

Glad you're in the hobby. Mike touched on spark plugs. Yes, there's lots of opinions there. I'll give mine. My T's all seem to run best on Champion X plugs. New ones are pricey and I'm cheap so, I used nice old ones that are cleaned and regapped. Swap meets usually have an abundance at $5 or less. The set in my roadster probably have 10 or 12 thousand miles on them and are still going strong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 08:13 pm:

John - You need to quit being so hypocritical and also so cynical. Dennis has given me no reason to doubt that his questions are not legitimate. Who cares if he did not answer all of the questions on the profile form. For that matter you did not answer all of them either. I believe the form asks for sex, hair color, eye color, pets, music preferences and favorite TV shows. How do I know who you are? I have never met you. I have read several of your posts on the forum in the past few months, but never heard of you prior to about August. Still I donít know who you are. But that does not matter. I could care less about your hair color, eye color or what tv show you watch. If you asked a question about a Model T regardless of weather or not you own one I would do my best to answer it for you and so would a bunch of other people on this site. I donít own Model Tís or participate on this forum to be ruled and regulated to death. That would take all of the fun out of it for me. I meet local people all of the time that have just purchased a Model T and need help with it. I have had several of them bring their car to my shop and we work on it together. I do it because I love it. I know they appreciate the help. We all have to start somewhere. I have met several people that post on this forum but many more that I have not met. I have learned from many people that I have never met. This in my opinion is the reason for this forum. To be able to ask and answer questions and help each other out when needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 08:21 pm:

Ownership of a model T isn't required in order to post here, either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 08:34 pm:

Dennis

For that rear door, the easy way is a drift punch and drive out the pins, just like a house hold door. Then you can remove the door and check out the latch. Those things have a spring inside that can be busted, or maybe just oil it up and work out the kinks.

As for running, does it drive on 'mag' position of the switch? If so, then clean the timer first, then maybe have the 4 coils in the box check out and tuned by an expert on a HCCT (hand crank coil test unit). Do that prior to carb clean or carb rebuild. Clean and gap the plugs too. Do each in steps to see how well you can get the T to act nice :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 10:13 pm:

Mike,

I guess I am one of the wise asses Dennis is talking about. With that said I wouldn't respond to someone who in their first or second post asks that the wise asses of this forum give him a break so he can get the answers he wants before being criticized about the way he asked or what he asked.

You need to kiss my wise ass Mike.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 10:52 pm:

John, Dennis never mentioned any names. He came here looking for help. I never felt threatened by any of his comments. I just find it ironic that after your comments on forum etiquette, you would tell someone to "Kiss your wise ass".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 11:02 pm:

John B,

Just be patient...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 02:00 am:

Having a car, a truck, and a tractor that all work just fine on six volts, I agree that should suffice. The cables do need to be big enough for it to work properly. If the car came with an eight volt battery that could mean it has the wrong cables (twelve volt) and needed the extra voltage to push enough juice through them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 02:18 am:

Before pulling the door pins try to spray a little penetrating oil in the latch. I had the same problem with both doors on my roadster. After two days of light sprays the latches work like new, and I never did remove them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 02:39 am:

I do run a 8 volt battery but for a different reason other than starting, I still crank (1916). Lights! a recharged magneto was blowing the head light globes, so lights wired to battery, a bittner regulator fitted to magneto and run coils on the 8 volt too, also still have the option of magneto ignition if wanted, this has worked well for me, good spark and lights and good charged battery, 3 years now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 04:12 am:

John Berch, I agree completly! John Faccin, lighten up already, what has gotten your shorts in a knot? Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 08:11 am:

David,& everyone else

I apologize if I offended anyone, I just didn't like the fact that a new member on his second post asks that the wise asses not jump on him for asking what he thinks is a naive question. I don't believe any of you guys would do that. If some of you don't mind being a called wise asses by a newbie, thatís ok with me. :-)

Thats what got my shorts in a knot Dave.....

I also didn't like Mike V. telling me what I need to do....

I make my own decisions, I say it like I see it, I don't sugar coat it..... If that offends I apologize again, thats just how I am! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 08:36 am:

I think it is a shame that someone that new to the forum has already been made to feel he will get dumped on. It is a poor reflection on the forum brought on by the actions of only a few. Granted, lately there have been some suspicious posts by newbies that appear to be trying to stir the pot, but that shouldn't mean we should question the sincerity of every newby that comes on here.

I think Mike V made a good call. But I think he did it in a tactful way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Taylor on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 09:51 am:

Mornin All,
I'd like to make a comment before moving on to the order of business---"T" talk.
I've been a MTFCOA member for quite a few years, and get lots of enjoyment from it, including reading the forum. The opinion I gave at the start of this thread was not a spur of the moment thought! I'm a guy from the western mountains of Maine and enjoy bantering with friends, and most of you obviously feel the same, but I do think the cynical, negative attitudes are holding some back from asking questions that most likely seem simple or fishy
to you experts!! As for you -- John Faccin -- I'd love to get to know you, and decide just who's going to kick ass!! (or maybe that smiley face!) I ain't scared of you!! Keep it comin.
Ok, back to T's --- I should mention, it is not running at all in the mag position, and I haven't checked the post contact on the housing yet, but it should still run fine on the bat., right??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Taylor on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 10:02 am:

I forgot to say -- once a feller wades through all the horseplay, this forum is a VERY valuable source of information! (and entertainment?)
Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 10:03 am:

Dennis,

It may or may not run fine on battery if your battery is 6 volt. If there is much resistance in the grounding of the commutator, current rise in the coils is going to be mighty slow and you'll not have enough spark advance above maybe 1200 rpm. Slop in the spark advance linkage compounds this problem.

Now, if you have a 12 volt battery, a low-resistance timer ground, no slop in the spark advance linkage, and full retard set just after TDC, your car should run great, provided all other engine/drivetrain parameters are where they should be.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 10:03 am:

Yes Dennis, as long as your battery isn't dead... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Sunday, December 05, 2010 - 11:40 am:

Dennis & Everyone,

I apologize for my comments. I have no excuse, I just don't know what got me going. After rereading the thread I guess I took it wrong and made a mountain out of a mole hill. I hope you all can accept my apology.

Dennis A little late, but welcome to the site!

Thanks,

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Orlando Ortega Jr., Portales, New Mexico on Sunday, December 05, 2010 - 12:36 pm:

John,

I havenít contributed to this post but have kept up with it. Sometimes we get a little carried away and canít see the forest for the trees. But I tell you, a person gains respect when he or she has the courage to admit wrong and apologizes for it. Weíre all friends here.

Orlando

PS Iím not going to apologize though for calling you Archie Bunker. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Sunday, December 05, 2010 - 12:41 pm:

Orlando,

Thanks, no don't apologize for calling me Archie, I liked that.

Archie, AKA John :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Sunday, December 05, 2010 - 10:52 pm:

Good for you John! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Taylor on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 09:49 am:

John, (and others) :
I will accept an apology, if you all (y'awl?) will accept mine. My hindsite is a perfect 20/20 on this one, and I can see clearly that my opening thread could and should have been stated much more diplomatically!! It downrite begged for a response like John's, and I'd like to just put this to bed!
As far as the T goes, I'll try to give an update after my next session with it. I want to clean coil contacts, etc. to try getting it running smoother. I just sold a Speedster that I've owned for several years because there was no room for our dogs to ride with us ( kinda like swapping the sports car for a Buick!), but my point being that it was a very smooth running engine, so I know what they are capable of.
Thanks for all the help.
Have a good day!
Dennis T


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By scott conger on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 12:21 pm:

Dennis

where in FL?

several T clubs in FL, and perhaps I'm nearby.

scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 01:31 pm:

Scott- Dennis - Good reason to include your location (Town-State) in your name!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 05:49 pm:

Dennis,
I am new here too, and I am reading backwards on older treads.
The not running on "MAG" rang a bell for me.
I don't know if this is common, but I have had lint from the bands collect on the point of the magneto contact pick up. Easy enough to check, but you have probably solved your problem by now.
Roar


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