OT - People afraid of US?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: OT - People afraid of US?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 10:02 am:

Guys –

Before I start, I need to say that this forum is one of the most informative and fun I’ve been on in 20 years of computer internet and bulletin board use.

The word awesome doesn’t come close to the comradeship, info, and entertainment that exist here.
But I’m a little concerned about how some folks are taking our fun and kidding.

The recent “Polarity” post where Dennis Tayor says “I'm expecting to get badly dumped on for my naive questions” suggests that we are turning a few people away due to our frivolosity and jesting. (I am as guilty of this as anyone else.)
I didn’t catch it until Aaron mentioned that he didn’t understand why Dennis expected to get dumped on.

I am happy that Dennis asked his questions but am wondering if others are not asking questions or joining in because they are concerned about being dumped on or harassed.

I don’t want us to enter the “Politically Correct Zone” but am concerned
that we might be scaring some people away.

I realize that a few of us deserve what we get and sometimes ask for it --


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money, Braidwood, IL on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 10:06 am:

I've heard the same concern from a few people I have met in person. They lurk but don't dare post for the same reason.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 10:16 am:

IMO, grow up and be a man or woman, if someone gets dumped on for no reason, there are plenty of us who will jump in to correct the situation.
Remember you can't see body language on here so a smiley goes a long way if you're teasing. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 10:31 am:

Thank you Fred for bringing this to light. I am not complaining here at all because Im used to this but I do agree with you in regards to especially newbies that are trying to learn and then see this site as difficult or even hostile whether it is meant or not. IE: My last question in regards to coils over distributor. Perhaps I do have a short memory or perhaps Im just overwhelmed by what I don't know or perhaps Im just not sure what im doing or understand, so I do ask the same question many times. Either way as you read down the thread you begin to see there are guys commenting how they are glad their questions haven't brought such rath.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 10:37 am:

John --
I noticed that you said IMO which means "In My Opinion"
Most people are a bit gentler and say IMHO which means "In MY Humble Opinion"

I wonder if you did it on purpose!

Smilies added to show that I am teasing!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 10:48 am:

In the recent months, there has been a lot more sarcasm and elitism than I remember. I too noticed what Dennis Taylor said and came to exactly the same conclusions Fred did.
If I got dumped on when I first started asking ignorant questions about a Model T the way others have been recently, I would have concluded that T owners were a bunch of "Pebble Beach" elitists like I've known in the rest of the antiqie car world and passed this place by and my T would probably have a Flathead V8 in it by now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 11:11 am:

We shouldn't be too hard on ourselves. Shortly after reading this thread, I read the thread that Dennis started. A couple of serious questions followed by a whole bunch of serious answers. We're not always Grumpy Old Men... :-)

...and yes, smileys are a big help in conveying mood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bill siebert on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 11:14 am:

It was a number of years ago when I first got my TT that I wrote about how I brought up Ford coils using a tester made of 3 boards and a rubber band cut from and old inner tube. The riducule that was heaped on me by the hand crank coil testers was unbelievable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 11:20 am:

You know, his thread on Polarity starts with him thinking there are some "Bad Asses" on here, seems like he is dumping on members here but worried about someone dumping on him. He can dish it out but not take it? Quote, "After spending a few minutes reviewing recent forum responses, I'm expecting to get badly dumped on for my naieve questions, but hopefully some of the wise asses will back off long enough to allow answers from those who would care to help me out here!!!"

No one dumped on him anyway not because of his warning, but because the responders are trying to help him.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George...Cherry Hill, NJ on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 11:55 am:

Just my .02 for which you can have a dime change is that I always see this forum as a back porch gathering and if it is back porch, sometimes a few curve balls come along that just have to be jump balls.

I'll give that for a newbie, it might seem off the wall and can maybe become overwhelming so we need to encourage the newbies to hang in there (the lurkers do and eventually learn the wheat from the chaf) and the truth on some of these 'sensitive' topics is that there is a spilt on recommendation, and on some there might even be a minority that wishes to scream their view. That all goes along with back porch society.

Newbies apparently start with the expectation that ALL T's are alike...after all Henry might have even said that in a press release somewhere! We all know they are not, and add to that we have guys who want to be judged under MTFCI guidelines, some who want speed at all cost, some who follow Montana 500, and some who just want to keep them running by any means! It's a diverse group to begin with, but we all share a common core...the Model T and if a poster wants to take a flyer on something different, we all seem to have come to the understanding that a topic preceded by OT means 'don't waste your time, unless you have time to meander'...

To each his own, but I'd still prefer that we don't need a forum nazi approach, but point to ponder and focus is maybe the webmaster can create a 'sticky' that is not hard fast rules for the forum...rather...first time posters read this! Click it and short and sweet message, not beware...but what you will find perhaps a title that mimic's Gail Rodda old "All the same, huh?" series of years ago.

We do need to foster the young ones, and those that are any age and get their first, but at the same time we also need to share the variations that are possbile and the warnings or skepticism (that isn't sarcasm)

We all know that a post by a newbie that asks, HOW GOOD IS ________ or SHOULD I _______ will lead to some of the longest threads known to man! I'm not trying to be harsh, but there are also some who do want to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly about something...

When I was a newbie here after being only on the other one forever...I was even getting horrible PM from Fake@gmail.com type folks and I'll tell you, that makes you want to run and hide and forget it! But I was older, I'm like a duck, and delete works fine for me. Some do take it too seriously perhaps...

So, just some ramblings, but my view is open forum as always.......maybe have a newbie guide as a 'sticky' if we must.

Now some levity....

:-):-):-) 3::1 gears; dissy; what lube; mixing year parts; paint color; what is really high compression; what band material; define a clearance fit; made in China; can I use cheaper 14mm spark plugs; metalurgy; 2 piece crank club; what fuel to use; which carb is best; electronic ignitions; etc. Those of us who have been around know there can be endless and rhetorical threads when these keywords are used...but remember, the newbie doesn't know and thats why maybe the opening salvo of response should always be a kind soul who pushes the newbie to a local club or a 'new best friend' approach. :-):-):-)

I'll share, I have a "new best friend", he is 80 years old and bought his 1st old car 2 weeks ago and called me up the day he was having it delivered to introduce himself. He doesn't use computers so thats a relief...:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:09 pm:

Funny you should mention that. I come from a family background wherein "busting chops" is considered the proper way to greet a close male friend or relative. The following scene from the movie, "Gran Torino," is an exaggerated illustration of what I'm talking about.

BUT BE WARNED IN ADVANCE, THERE'S A LOT OF REALLY NASTY R-RATED LANGUAGE AND ETHNIC SLURS IN THIS VIDEO CLIP, SO YOU GET OFFENDED BY THAT KIND OF THING, DO NOT WATCH IT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXD8yOxIPB0

Okay, so that's probably not the best way to greet someone for the very first time and newbies don't know about the many uses for modified bituman roofing tar.

Now, I have to admit, I enjoyed the razzing I got from you guys when I first arrived and it made me feel right at home, but again, if you didn't happen to be raised with lot of alpha-males in the family, hosing the place down with testosterone every day, this kind of brotherly warmth could easily be mistaken for hostility.

The other thing is; ladies don't engage in this kind of banter, at least not with men, so if we "bust their chops" right off the bat, it will cause some of them to not to want to join our forum and that's bad for the hobby.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:11 pm:

Frank, I don't remember seeing the words "bad asses" anywhere. The way I see it, it's much more a case of a subtle incivility.
I do want to thank you though for making my point and turning this into an "us against them" topic, rather than just a reminder that manners (among adults), are imortant.
DJH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:17 pm:

I guess I would be considered an oldie since I have been involved with Model T's for over 40 years since purchasing my first Model T ('26 coupe) at the age of 16 for $600.00 in 1970.

As someone with many years of experience under my belt, I have certainly asked my fair share of obvious and stupid questions (to some), but if I don't know, I don't know and if I want it to be correct, then I must ask.

As a high ranking executive and the go to answer guy here at my railcar repair business, I have a sign in my office that puts many at ease, which says: "Asking dumb questions is much easier than correcting dumb mistakes".

At the age of 57, this old Marine has learned not to worry what others might think, or that my questions are stupid. After all, I will be the first to acknowledge that there are plenty of folks here that know a whole lot more than I do about the Model T. Instead, I rationalize my dumb questions, by imagining that there may be alot of others out there that might benefit from my asking the dumb question, since they were possibly wondering the exact same thing themselves, but were afraid others might think their question was stupid.

Don't be afraid to jump in and ask. I might learn from it and if I do, I will thank you for it and if others chastise you for it, I and many others will come to your defense.

Semper Fi.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:31 pm:

Jim,

Where can I get a sign like that? Did you purchase or have made.
BTW I was never in the Corps. but grew up in it. Dad was a career officer retiring as Bird Col.after 30 yrs.

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:33 pm:

Dennis,

Those are my words, not the posters, his are wise asses. Just to clear that up. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.M.Head in St Sauveur Quebec Canada on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:40 pm:

In my exp., usually, abuse when it happens is on the open forum, and help is found on the open forum or pvt msgs.
As a Soc. Psychologist, this tells me that those who are so quick [and happy] to abuse and belittle others, even if cyber-strangers, have other issues they are not addressing, and are likely not in therapy [but should be].
Given that, I say, let them heap all the "abuse" they can, as long as they do not use perjorative language or issue threats. If they do those things, ban them, as they are not contributing constructively to the group.
When I have specific technical questions, I often pvtly msg members I have come to know through the forum over long periods of time.
Jim's sign says a lot - I would add - asking dumb people questions gets dumb answers. And harbouring hostility towards strangers in a forum that is intended as a helpful community for like-minded individuals and hobbyists is dumb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:41 pm:

Jim - that is a great sign. I gotta get one!

Dennis Halpin - Thanks for reminding us that manners are important.

As for George - :-) That post is too long for any civilized person to read - nevermind understand. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:46 pm:

You can buy that sign online:

http://customsignsandplaques.com/asking-dumb-questions-wood-sign.htm#topofpage


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 12:51 pm:

"What you think of me is none of my business"

is a liberating credo.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.M.Head in St Sauveur Quebec Canada on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 01:01 pm:

Rick - I like that. Add to it - "I can't be bothered to have an opinion of you". In French we say "bonjour la visite", which means "good-bye to the visitors" meaning unwanted guests, and many people, when they are rude and intrude on our lives should be admonished with as much aplomb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 02:21 pm:

Larry,

"Davis and Small Decor" is one of the largest suppliers of hand painted signs in the United States. They have thousands of them of all shapes and sizes, for all occassions and we have them all over our office. They also make nice personalized signs that make great Chrismas gifts, as they are really well made and very brightly colored. Here is their website for you to browse: www.dsdecor.com/office.html. The "Dumb Question" sign (#1530) is under the "office humor" catagory. I have posted pictures of two signs in the bathroom over the toilet and one outside the bathrooms. They always bring a smile. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George...Cherry Hill, NJ on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 04:09 pm:

Gee Fred, I said you could have a dime back :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 04:58 pm:

Jim,

Thank you.
I will look into getting the Dumb question sign for the office.

Take care,
Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 05:26 pm:

Jim,

Those signs are great! I bet you are a good man to work for. Anyone with a sense of humor like that has to be a great boss.

As for me, I lurk & read alot of threads here and since I don't have a complete Model T at this point, this board is where I come to soak up the knowledge.

I've worked on lots of various types of old cars, but only worked on 2 Model T's. One was a paint job and the other was mounting a set of tires. So I've alot to learn about T's!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 05:26 pm:

You know, it's not really the dumb questions that make some of us get a little weird. It's when the person asking the question is perceived as having some sinister motive just because they are not yet able to ask an "informed" question. Take the recent thread about building your own T, or something to that affect. The poster was clearly very new to the idea of anything Model T and so, asked some "uninformed" questions. It only took a short time for several to get all paranoid about who he really was and what are his motives, etc. Soon, the thread turned ugly and the original poster said some things that perhaps he normally would not have were he not continually goaded over his lack of knowledge and his redundant questions. Maby they weren't "smart" questions but guess what, that's the kind of questions new hobbiests ask! I really can see how a new guy, (or girl), might be shy about sticking his, (or her), neck out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 07:16 pm:

It's not being dumped on when you get an honest answer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan C on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 07:39 pm:

You know I think I ask the same questions ten different ways but I always get a respectful response from all of you "grumpy old men". So ok I have one. I'm going to be in a parade and everyone advised me to drive with brake handle in neutral and then go to low when I want to move and let up when I stop, set the spark advance about halfway and something else but I forget. So I've been practising and it seemed to go well. But someone said it would cause transmission problems. Like how? And why? And why set the brake handle to neutral, why not all the way engaged and how does the first gear work if the brake handle is in neutral. There! That should keep you talking for awhile.....:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 07:47 pm:

Susan,

The brake handle in neutral (midway) only prevents the high-speed (high gear) clutch from engaging. The low pedal will still engage low and the reverse pedal will still engage reverse.

When I had my speedster, I always left the handbrake in that midway position until I had backed out to the street and began moving forward in low gear, then moved it all the way forward.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 08:03 pm:

I forgot to include:

Don't try to drive at the parade speed because you'll be constantly slipping the low band which is hard on both the band and the drum.

Instead, let the gap between your car and what you are following grow and then stab the low pedal just like you would in regular driving so that there is no slipping at all.

Then let up off the low pedal and coast to a stop behind whatever you are following.

This technique can't hurt the transmission any more than regular driving does.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 08:12 pm:

Susan,

See David Dare's thread, "Low Speed Drum Crack...."

Slipping the low or reverse bands can cause these cracks. The low and reverse drums are not nearly as robust as the brake drum so they overheat rather easily and can crack as a result.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 08:12 pm:

Seth thats a great point.

David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 08:16 pm:

David,

I should have included,

"I rather doubt that David's driving technique cracked his low-speed drum. Certainly it can be blamed on past sins." :-)

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 08:39 pm:

Lets get back on topic fellas, I'll start things off with an important question to highlight my obvious sophistication and importance. How long is a piece of string?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 09:39 pm:

Susan,I still think your spark should be full advanced on starting and left there till just before shutdown?? PS Grumpy is the one i look like! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 09:55 pm:

Ed in California, Maybe I'm a little slow but what do you mean?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 10:18 pm:

Ed if you concider twine as string then in Crawford, Ks, 2003 the Worlds largest ball of twine was 7,049,191 feet long.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 10:48 pm:

Tyrone - that ball of twine was made up of more than one piece of string because they knotted the ends together.

Ed - the answer to your question is from end to end.

George - I'm waiting for my dime! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Friday, December 03, 2010 - 11:32 pm:

Fred, yes your right. I hoped nobody else knew.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker - Sumter, SC on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 12:09 am:

Bottom Line Up Front: Yes, I think we can and should work to make our forum more welcoming – especially to new members posting for the fist few times.

Supporting information:

I want to say thank you to a great group of guys and gals. You each do so many different things to help support our hobby and to offer support to those that ask questions both on and off the forum. Thank you!

I also want to say thank you to Fred for posting this thread – as I have had a couple of e-mails from folks expressing some concern about this same subject and that was before you posted your note. And sometimes as I’ve read a posting I’ve thought the reply was a little abrupt and I hoped we didn’t unnecessarily offend someone. I remember the first time I made a posting. It has been a while since then, but I still remember the feelings. The reply basically implied I was an idiot for not realizing that the source I had shared was out of date. Now the person who responded was absolutely correct – the reference I had was wrong. But the way they shared it was not only “less than positive” it almost convinced me I would be better off just working on my T rather than trying to understand that new fangled forum thing.

So a question I would pose to myself and others is can we do better? Yes, I think so. Just as Henry kept improving the Model T, I think there are some things some of us can do to make the forum an even better place for information and for making new friends. Some things I would offer for consideration – not necessarily doing all of them but perhaps some of them are:

1. If I think the poster is new, I’ll click on their profile. It will let me know if it is there first couple of postings and how long they have been registered. When I see they have less than 10 posting or so I remind myself that they probably are still figuring out the forum and in many cases are new to Ts also. – I try to be purposeful in those cases to make them feel welcomed. Some folks can naturally make folks feel welcomed -- but in my case, I find if I’m intentional about it, I am more likely to succeed at it. And I still “goof it up” at times.

2. I try to apply the very helpful saying, “If I don’t have anything positive say, don’t say anything at all.”

3. If I see a posting that I think is caustic or harsh, and I know the poster, I will sometimes e-mail them privately. I know I’ve had a couple of folks e-mail me privately when they had something negative to say or corrective in nature that I needed to hear. They could have posted it but they wisely used the principle of “Praise in Public and offer correction in Private.” And I appreciate their honest but discreet inputs. I know I have blind spots that others see and I am oblivious to. And some of you may also be unaware of how you are coming across. If you would like some feed back – please send me an e-mail (just click on my name – my address is the third line down – or send a Private Message – and you don’t have to reveal your e-mail). I’ll do a search of some of your recent forum postings and let you know how they hit me – good, bad, or ugly. And of course I’m just one person so I could be out in left field – but if you ask several folks and receive similar feedback – you have a better feeling if you are doing great, good, or maybe you should work at it a little more. I really enjoyed the audio book “The Last Lecture” by Randy Pausch. While he was a college professor, he had his students break into teams to complete projects. Part of the assignment was to also rate the other team members on how well they contributed to the project and how well they contributed to the team. At the end of the semester Randy would discuss with each student how they thought they were doing. In one case a student thought the were being really helpful to the team and easy to get along with. But on all the teams that student had been a part of all the other team members rated him last in that interpersonal skill of working with others (or some similar function). So the student was the only one who thought he was doing well – everyone else in the class saw it differently. We need others to help us become our best. Thank you guys and gals for putting up with me and helping me to become better at relating to others also.

4. Sometimes I get in a hurry to post an answer – especially if I need to leave so I can go to work or an appointment etc. For some reason I think the world is going to stop if I wait to finish the posting when I get back. So I will hit “post” and sort of hope it all works out. I need to remind myself – the goal is not just to communicate information but to build up our hobby and to foster our friendships.

5. One of the items I teach at my work is how to use a simple “chat program”. In addition to discussing which buttons to push or windows to open etc. we caution the users to be careful. For some reason people will type something to someone else that they would never say or very rarely say face to face to the same person. It is similar to the situation when someone gets into their automobile. They seem much more animated with their hand gestures at the driver they are waiting behind than say if the same two people were standing in line at Wal-Mart. I try not to post when I’m mad or frustrated. And it really doesn’t matter what I’m mad about. That anger can come across in the posting even though it was a situation at work or even the football game that I was frustrated about.

Again thank you all for your work at making our forum the excellent source of information that it is. I would say the Model T knowledge offered by the members here is fantastic. But I encourage myself and others to work at making our forum even more welcoming to others. I believe that will help us gain even more members and strengthen our hobby. And of course a side benefit – they will bring additional information with them.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 12:33 am:

Being relatively new here (three years), I don't recall getting dumped on when I started asking dumb questions. Maybe I'm so obtuse I didn't notice. It does seem to me that sometimes when people give their opinions on the recurring subjects of argument (water pumps, distributors, doctors' coupes, etc.), some people see it as a discussion and others see it as a fight. Keep your stick on the ice. We're all in this together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.M.Head in St Sauveur Quebec Canada on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 04:44 am:

Folks like Hap are great, and a real asset to their communities.
Electronic forums, however, often result in people typing without thinking, as Hap suggests.
Perhaps it is verbal diarrhea, or intellectual dyslexia, I cannot say, but yes, online there are some people who are just downright ignorant and rude. I think they key before they think...and possibly represent the lower, basest parts of our societies, even though they have access to a computer. I do not say this as an elitist, but as someone who has little tolerance for rude behaviour. That is not to say I won't throw stones back in their direction, however, I take care that my aim is directed at them alone, and not others.
I have seen new folk come to this forum and be trounced upon mercilessly. I have met some of the "elite" members at Hershey and electronically - and have to ask what the H E double hockey sticks do they have to crow about anyway?
Many years of experience online have taught me that people can get carried away very easily - and for those who do, well, they look like fools in the eyes of all who are electronically present - and can look forward to continued derision by others as their ignorance just keeps on being read in archives and online indefinitely.
In the past 24 hours, I have had the unpleasant misfortune to, briefly, suffer two fools for their witless remarks and jabs, on this forum. As such, I can say with all honesty that this forum is not always a pleasant place to interact with others. However, 98% of the time it is. The other 2%, well, at least you don't have to look at the sorry fools online...just don't forget to wipe off your electronic shoes as you exit your discussions with these sorts.
And take the time to welcome new folk before they are soured by the other ilk that lurks out there.
Again, kudos to Hap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 08:19 am:

I alway try to keep it civil since I want to come back.

Being uncivil online here is like having an argument with your wife, then storming out only to realize you forgot your keys and wallet. It takes alot to go back and sheepishly knock on the door, knowing she might let you back in after making you sit out in the cold for awhile, or you could be in for a cold night on the porch. After that, you learn to keep your temper in check and try and be a grownup. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 10:46 am:

Well said Hap:

“Praise in Public and offer correction in Private.”

A sure cure for many of society's ills....and a great morale booster for those that do well.

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Cansdale on Sunday, December 05, 2010 - 10:12 pm:

To Fred and others that answered this post - I make the following comments with no intention of offending, as someone from the other side of the world, where humour and approach to life is different to those of you in the States.

Fred, I can tell you for certain, that although there are a lot of friendly and helpful people here, the frequency of responses to questions that aren't exactly friendly is to many people, a big turn off. I know of many people in Australia that choose not to comment with answers or pose questions because they feel they will either get a tirade of abuse or negativity because of differing opinion or are made to feel dumb for asking.

This is not unique behaviour to this forum or hobby.

Communication can be a difficult thing even when you can hear a tone of voice, or see a facial expression to establish the intent of the question or answer. Written text alone can be hopeless and often unintentionally insulting.

The forum, in my opinion needs some updating. Most include sections for frequently asked questions or sticky threads that make it easier for people to research their questions without 'uneccessarily' asking the same questions we see here all the time. What oil, 6v vs 12v etc etc.? This forum does not cater for this and so is partly to blame for exacerbating the repeated 'debate' questions we see so often.

As someone that spends their working life writing training material and teaching people, I can assure you that human nature is to take the easiest route to get an answer to a question, be it a phone call or a forum posting. Trawling through a less than user friendly forum search tool that may bring back dozens of results is just too hard for some people.. Is that the right approach? probably not, but none of you were born experts and have learnt along the way, and I'm sure have done the same to learn or get an answer to something you didn't know.

I know that no-one over here thinks they are an expert either.
You can't expect everyone to go and buy every Model T book and read it before asking a question. Adults have different learning styles, and some people's brains simply don't work that way. I'm sure many of you learn from doing, not reading. I need to do both, read then put into practice.

Every new enthusiast should be welcomed with open arms - they extend the life of our hobby. I belong to many car clubs, where the membership is ageing and no "new, young" blood is turning up and the clubs are at risk of extinction because young people don't want to deal with grumpy old men, or those that suffer from what we call OFD - Old Farts Disease.

I was very surprised by the repsonse to my transmission animation http://www.modeltcentral.com/transmission_animation.html it is still one of the most visited pages on my site and I receive a lot of positive feedback from it. It makes me feel especially good when people who know an enormous amount more than I do, tell me how helpful they found it. I am yet to be abused for providing the information and so am motivated to continue.

Sure, you'll see posts here from people who ask questions in a less than appropriate manner, putting people offside. So don't answer them if they offend you. We are dealing with hundreds of thousands of people, there will always be the 'odd' ones. They will learn from the silence, not ridicule or abuse...

Personally, I have received some aggressive responses to questions early on - I don't offer opinions here because of it - I'm lucky to be the Secretary of my State's club and surround myself with knowledgeable people from whom I can learn. I still surprise myself when I realise I can answer a question from a newbie who knows nothing of our interest. I am still on a long journey of discovery and learning...

I still however value the vast content that is posted here and hope that people can learn to temper their responses and not turn away new interested people..

Chris
www.modeltcentral.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Sunday, December 05, 2010 - 11:43 pm:

Thanks for this thread and the issues raised.

Before going further, let me say this is the best forum I have belonged to and overall is informative and a lot of fun. You guys and ladies are generous with your ideas and support and help, and not just with T's either.

NOW, I know I have upset others and I have been a bit put off myself by replies - usually UNINTENTIONALLY.
I realise that humour and 'rib nudging' are clearly different between 'down under' and the US of A (and the UK and Europe and Sth America and Africa and....even between 'east coast' and 'west coast').

We all have different ways of interacting and saying things and in terms of what we consider a bit of fun or with what is / can be considered insulting.

I have considered dropping off the forum when the responses are sometimes less than pleasant. Perhaps they are posted without much thought rather than deliberately. BUT overall there is a bunch of great folk here and a wealth of information, so I still log in.

Echoing Chris, I know of folk here in New Zealand who lurk but will not post questions or offer answers because of the way people can get 'dumped on'.

So to repeat, it may be the sarcasm and/or bit of fun is harmless in your (or my) culture, but we are divided by a common language and in ways of thinking about things.
This does not necessarily mean you or I are wrong, just different.

Hap has been a great role model for thoughtful and considered posts and I try to follow his example. Dennis H, George, Dick Lodge, Stan Howe and Steve Jelf are among the many many others with thoughtful posts - and they can include a bit of humour too.

Can I suggest a couple of mottos to consider when posting:
"IF IN DOUBT -DON'T" (if you are not sure that your poking fun is OK or your replies are bit 'short') and - "A GENTLE WORD TURNS AWAY STRIFE"

Kind regards
Adrian Whiteman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 12:00 am:

Even though linguistics and cultural influences have long been interests of mine, it is sometimes difficult to keep in mind that some of the posters are from other English speaking countries and others use English as a second language or even use a translator. This global community, in some ways unfortunately, has many different views of humor and language. I, for one, abhor foul four-letter language in common use. I must filter it within myself because it is SO common around this part of the world.
I look forward to postings from Australia and New Zealand, Europe, Great Briton, Canada etc. etc. etc. (Is it proper to say "down unda'"? I have used that term a few times, but really don't want to offend anyone.) I would hope they would not be frightened off. But, as I intimated earlier, I find many "Americans" offensive myself. And I was born one. (Actually, it is impossible to say or do anything in any language that could not offend someone, somewhere.)

Also, remember, there is a LOT of misinformation out there. A newbie (?) will not know which books or articles to follow any more than he knows the answer to his question. A seasoned model T person only has to peruse eBay to know that most of the world knows nothing about model Ts. I remember some of the stuff I was told 45 years ago (of course you put a 1926 engine into your 1920, they're all the same!)
So, please, all of you model T owners from Spain, France, South America, Australia, etc. etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum -, please continue posting. Or start asking. But try to be understanding of us. Many of us look forward to hearing from you.

And I still don't know how to do smileys. My abacus didn't have them when I first started using computers.
Drive safe, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 12:16 am:

Adrian obviously types much faster than I can. I started 45 minutes ago. (sigh)
Adrian mentions that east coast and west coast may differ. It is much more pronounced than that. I grew up in the south San Francisco Bay Area. San Jose and Hayward are separated by about 20 miles. Yet, Milpitas on south (San Jose) refers to all freeways by the highway number, e.g. 101, 680, 17, 880, etc. From Fremont north (Hayward), all freeways are referred to by name, e.g. Nimitz, Warren, MacArthur etc. Until I learned to translate the two, getting directions when out of area was tough.
Drive safe, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 07:39 am:

I second Wayne's comment about forum participants in other countries. I hope some of our more opinionated folks won't drive them off. I enjoy the posts by Mario, Thomas, Adrian, Dave, and our other "foreign" members. That's in quotes because I don't think of them as any more foreign than my relatives from Peru, Mexico, Germany, or Texas.

Some of us tend to be rather provincial (arrogant?) and think hostility to other languages or cultures makes us patriotic. Au contraire, mon petite vache. It just makes one look like a dolt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 09:40 am:

Thanks for all your comments.
We are doing something special here but being a bit more sensitive might be good. :-)

A few months ago there was a post that asked people to put their location after their name.
I think that is a great idea because it lets us know where people live so we get a clue as to how they might take a comment.

Additionally, if we know someone lives nearby we might be able to give them some face to face assistance if they are having a problem or help them connect to a local club.
Just recently (sorry I missed the name) someone offered to help mount tires if they lived close.
That type of help is what the group should be known for.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 12:50 pm:

Newzealand humour is difficult to translate sometimes i wonder if anyone posting from newzealand has that problem


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlieB-Toms River N.J. on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 01:13 pm:

I'm as thin skinned as any body out there but Bob's posting on testing coils got me to post. Perhaps some of the HCCT guys got a bit vigorous over trying to convince him that HCCT testing is the best way to go and their right. I know because I resisted for years. But even though some of my inane questions have brought a (very) few equally inane answers this is still the place to go for information. ESPECIALLY what's not in the books.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 02:27 pm:

Charlie B

I understand - When I was working on the T with my dad in the 50's and early 60's he did the coils by ear.
At least that is what I thought he did!

When I got some of the T stuff out of my mom's basement I ended up with a Franklin Electric multi tester that tested coils, spark plugs, and light bulbs.

I was excited because I thought that I had found a way to make sure the coils were good and adjust them without sending them to someone.
(I’m a cheap Yankee (as in a fiscal conservative) that hates spending money.)
But I was told that it only could tell me if they were OK or not.
Boy was I disappointed!
I think my dad did all his own adjustments without outside help and the car ran great! (Still does.)

Sometimes we (as in ME and I) can get a bit zealous in stating our (as in MY) opinion and not mean to turn others off.

My dad did something right - I just don't know what it was! :-)

Someday I’ll see him and if I remember I’ll ask how he did it – but until then I’ll do the best I can and have fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bill siebert on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 02:55 pm:

Fred, I used to do the same as your dad, when i was driving a model T to school. It took a bit but I would get them to work as they should on the mag position.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 04:29 pm:

Kep in NZ, just a matter of curiosity, are you local or an import? If an import then you will have first hand experience of the weird humour down under.
I spent 14 years in Canada and the Continent. coming 'home' sure took me a while to get used to the odd ways we Kiwis think and do things.... well, odd when compared to what I git used to in Europe where things are done quite differently...
Cheers
Adrian


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Cansdale on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 04:56 pm:

Hey Wayne,

You can say "down unda" as often as you like - that's the point about being different - we down here are all pretty laid back and it wouldn't bother us even if it wasn't a nice thing to say (and it is a compliment).

Here's another example of inter country relations- Adrian and Kep are Kiwi's - there has long been an understanding across the ditch (or dutch as they would say) to poke fun at each other. Aussies and Kiwis 'get' each other.

I agree with Adrian - proof read your post, then read it again - if in doubt, don't post it.

(and just for the record, as a general rule, we do understand you guys)

Cheers
Chris


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 06:16 pm:

Been in Newzealand forever but so many people do not get anything you say, Or they might be having you on about no understanding you. For instance if you compliment someones car that has a folding roof (that is down at the time) and tell them you like the clear plastic roof on it Newzealanders will get that but forigners will not, They will try to explain to you that it has a folding roof that is down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 07:50 pm:

Yep :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Lang - Brentwood Bay BC on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 08:34 pm:

Watching Flight of the ConChords brought me closer to the Kiwis!

"Right, time for a band meeting. Murray? -Present."
Though I hear from Kiwi friends, that its not really funny, its just what they think is funny in Wellington. I'm not sure if that's true, as the Kiwis I know, started out as Canucks!

I like the "Hot" topics here. Oil, antifreeze, water pumps, dizzys, etc. I find them very entertaining.

I also like seeing the dealer post card. I haven't seen it for a while, I should have saved it, so I could post it tonight. There are always new people here, it was new to me when I saw it the first time. Maybe I'll post the E.B White story instead. I'll just bet that not everybody here has read it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 08:47 pm:




:-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Lang - Brentwood Bay BC on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 08:57 pm:

Thanks Seth!!!!!!!!!

It's good to see that old friend. Really deserves it's own thread though.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 09:14 pm:

NOW YOU'VE DONE IT HARBUCK! :-) I never did understand why that got such a rise.

In regards to humor, My sense of humor is a little different. I especially like British and Canadian humor. I was always a Monty Python fan. My Son bought me the entire CD set of Trailer Park Boys for Christmas last year. I was devastated when the series ended. :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 09:48 pm:

You KNEW you could count on me, John!

Merry Christmas!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 10:35 pm:

"British and Canadian humor"?

I have always felt that "British humor" is an oxymoron. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 10:50 pm:

Benny Hill

I have a large set of VHS.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 11:09 pm:

Don't forget Fawlty Towers. Now, that's funny.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 11:16 pm:

Good stuff Ralph and Steve. I watched "Are you Being Served" for years. A little corny but entertaining.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 01:25 am:

I don't know how we got onto this line (even though I may be to blame), and I probably should not admit this, but one of my favorite (modern) movies is "the Bed Sitting Room". Late sixties as I recall. I even found a DVD of it after years of looking. If you are not familiar with it, you will either love it or say "what?"(?). But good luck finding it.
Drive safe, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 02:33 am:

Well Christopher, the Flight of The Conchords did not really 'take off' here in New Zealand.
Most of us find the humour not that funny actually! although the deadpan delivery and absurd situations can be amusing.
The most fascinating thing was the way the series went ballistic in the US.

Cheers
Adrian

(Now Max Smart, Hogan's Heroes, Mr Ed and Greeacres are funny US comedy shows well worth the watching - even though they aren't "British' :-))


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 02:34 am:

Oh! I think I just aged myself there with those examples :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 07:35 am:

An interesting note on Mr. Ed: He had such a strong New York accent that the producers were afraid it would drive off southern viewers, so his lines were dubbed by another actor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale L Myers-Greenville Pa. on Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 09:20 am:

Surely you can't be serious.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob from Nova Scotia on Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 10:54 am:

I'm always serious. And Dont call me Shirley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 04:16 pm:

Doctor my brain hurts!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 05:37 pm:

Adrain,None of the shows mentioned can hold a candle to Benny Hill!!!!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harvey Decker / Monterey, Tennessee on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 06:16 pm:

How about this one:

"Keeping Up Appearances"

Keeping


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 08:33 pm:

A classic, that one!

"... hand-painted periwinkles."

Thanks Harvey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harvey Decker / Monterey, Tennessee on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 08:58 pm:

Hi Seth
Ya gotta love that Onslow.
onslow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.M.Head in St Sauveur Quebec Canada on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 09:12 pm:

s a Canadian, I have found that our humour is often misunderstood south of the 49'. It is really somethign not like british humour, and not like American. And remember, it is homour that has developed in a culture of French scatalogical references and English anal retention. Can make for a deadly combo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 09:20 pm:

Remember, we're all in this together. We're pulling for you. Keep your stick on the ice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 09:27 pm:

Canadian joke (apologies to all who are offended):

A flying saucer from a far galaxy arrived at earth near Newfoundland, and spotted a chap in a boat fishing. As they descended closer, they heard him singing, "I's the b'y that builds the boat
And I's the b'y that sails her..." They drew the chap in the boat into their flying saucer and took him back to their home planet to analyze him. When they were done, they brought him back and put him back in the boat. Then they realized that they had removed all of his intelligence and failed to put it back. They went back to get him and correct their error. They saw him in the boat, and as they descended heard him singing, "Allouette, gentille allouette..."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 10:44 pm:

"Buried my cat today"
"Took me nearly three hours"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 09:24 am:

Herb - sorry to hear about your cat..



Just a sugestion - you might save some time if you get help from some friends next time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Billy Rose Garland Texas on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 10:43 am:

My engine is missing, what am I missing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 10:53 am:

An engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 03:53 pm:

One show that reminds me a bit of the T fraternity is "Last of The Summer Wine". A cross section of MANkind let loose on the world with no more restraint (and lots of ideas):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_of_the_Summer_Wine

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/lastofthesummerwine/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 04:11 pm:

Oh what a way to go. thanks for bringing that to us. I will have to find the movie.


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