The E-Timer has experienced a serious problem that jeopardizes its future. I was astounded to learn the problem has absolutely nothing to do with the intricate time sharing of the same coil wire used to power the computer one instant and firing a spark the next instant; generating hundreds of volts in the process. Nor was the issue related to the 1000+ lines of computer instructions responsible for all functionality including four floating point math calculations done four times for each CAM revolution to provide precision ignition timing. To my astonishment, the serious issue the E-Timer faces is the creation and propagation of false, inaccurate and misleading statements about its performance in this public forum by well read and respected, senior participants who’s views are widely accepted as gospel by many on the forum. The reason for my astonishment is that many of these views were formed without due diligence; first hand experience, conducting basic research or at least making an effort to obtain and read the MTTI E-Timer article before recklessly spewing their erroneous views and false assumptions of its performance on this targeted public forum. I have even reached out to some of the perpetrators of this misinformation offering to provide them with factual information, and in one case, offering to provide an E-Timer without obligation to permit first hand experience with it. The offer was promptly declined, not surprisingly, because of an un-educated, erroneous assumption. How some of these “senior” forum members earned such widespread respect of other forum members eludes me considering the shallow basis for some of their critical views; an obvious disservice to the forum.
Its almost seems as some folks have interpreted the E-Timer as a personal assault on their pursuit of the hobby that must be condemned at all costs if the hobby is to endure because it closely mimics original operation with modern technology yielding superior performance. The E-Timer is simply another option for the Model T enthusiast to use or choose not to use. That choice, however, should be made based on accurate, factual information rather than mis-information propagated on this forum to suit one’s own view of how things should be done.
Make no mistake, I appreciate, encourage and welcome opposing or critical points of views on the E-Timer or any project as long as they are factual, accurate and substantiated. I consider such views as constructive to the development process that will either result in an improved product or identifying true flaws and performance limitations. Anyone actually participating on this project with me can attest to my openness and willingness to accept such criticism. The E-Timer has encountered and recovered from serious issues before and I expect it will do so in this case as well. As a new member of this forum, I sincerely hope the recovery will be aided by forum members demanding higher standards of conduct and greater accountability from its senior members.
Hang in there Mike, don't let them get you down. With anything new, there is always resistance. "I've always done it that way before, so why change now?" Sound familiar? I would venture to say that phrase was heard many times when Henry came out with the T. I have to admit, I find myself saying this sometimes, although I'm trying to break this bad habit! Just human nature I suppose. Dave
We Model T-ers intentionally operate an anachronism in a modern context. Because of this paradox, we have spirited discussions about originality vs. utility. This seems to be the eternal debate and Model T owners pick whatever compromise between the two extremes suit their individual styles. My T happens to be a daily driver, optimized to operate in a high-traffic environment, but I have a pal whose point of view leans toward purity. His cars don't have electric self-starters and turn signals, yet he does just fine driving in traffic. Hey, more power to him.
Now, I don't particularly care for the idea of replacing coils with a distributor because I think that fundamentally changes the essence of what a Model T is. But an owner has the right to do that if he wants to and I wouldn't disparage anybody who does. Hey, it's undeniable that a distributor improves the car's utility and reliability. Like it or not, it's an improvement.
What we have here in the E-timer is a big, technological question mark. It's too early to tell just how good this product it will be, but y'know, there's someone out there willing to spend beaucoup bucks on its development for the sake of the Ford Model T and I think that's just wonderful. Hey, let's face it; investment-wise, there are far more lucrative applications for this kind of digital technology, so whoever the developer is, he must love the old Fords. He's doing us a favor.
Now, maybe I'll buy an E-timer someday and maybe I won't. That's not the point. The point is, the E-timer, along with Anderson timers, along with True-Fire Ignition, along with generic distributors--all that stuff--is good for the hobby. So are high-compression heads, floating hubs, Kevlar bands and so on. That's the big picture. Okay, so maybe the E-timer will be just another neat catalog gadget to bolt onto your Model T, but something tells me this thing has the potential to be bigger than that. If so, don't you purists be threatened by it--there'll still be plenty of old-fashioned timers available. I think we should be giving the E-timer's developer some encouragement. Can I get an amen?
Mike, I welcome the new innovations to the Model T hobby. especially the ones that are "Invisible" like your product. I currently have a Fun Projects modernized horn, voltage regulator, and Amp gauge. They are absolutely beautiful. I have no doubt in my mind they will function beautifully as well. What you propose is not really that much different. If my magneto was interoperable I'd be much more interested.
Don't let a few negative responses stifle your creative achievements. the people who are vehemently opposed to your project aren't going to buy one anyway. We used to call that "A dog in the manger". He won't eat the hay but he'll bark and keep the cows away. There is a group, myself included, who remain silent who are very interested. Keep up the good work.
I type slow, Amen Bob, and Dave.
Well said, I could care less if they want to try something new or not. It seems like some of these birds keep a constant drum beat of negativeness. I hope that these few do not discourage the Development of the E-Timer. Keep up the good work, we need more like you.
Mike, don't take too much stock in what goes on here. I don't think a few detractors on this forum have enough power to kill a good product.
Keep pluggin' away.
"To my astonishment, the serious issue the E-Timer faces is the creation and propagation of false, inaccurate and misleading statements about its performance in this public forum by well read and respected, senior participants..."
And I'm astonished to read the above. I just read the prior thread again, and find only one poster with negative comments, and others such as myself with honest questions. Creation and propagation of false and misleading?
I post contrary facts and opinions with some others on plenty of topics, such as disturbutors, kevlar, waterpumps and thermostats, but I try to show only praise of the individuals, and not attack.
Don't let them get to you. Form your Demonstration at Hershey & article in the Model T Times. You are building what I have always dreamt of but don't have the skills to build.
The ford system is great but if you drive enough even the near bullet proof mag will fail.
Points & timers will wear out, capacitors go short,leaky,or open.
I Have traveled 70,000+ miles on fords original system, but can hardly wait to run an
Dean are you involved in the field trial?
I'll still argue that a distributor is less reliable than 4 coils though... lol
My only suggestion is that the E timer really needs testing in a right hand drive configuration, where the control rod is "down under" the commutator case Now as a qualified auto electrician & hardcore enthusiast who's just coming into a long hot touring season I guess I should volunteer to help with the testing;)
Thanks for all the words of encouragement and support of this project. As any entrepreneur can tell you, a project like the E-Timer involves personal sacrifices, significant financial investment, many hundreds of hours of intense work and dedicated support from family and end users to pursue. I am very proud to say the project has helped sustained a few much needed jobs here locally and elsewhere in the US. It is unlikely it will return a profit given the vast time and investment necessary to develop for a very limited market even at a cost that many already brand as unreasonably high. There are, however, other rewards from this project that I am fortunate to value and enjoy. Seeing an idea physically realized that runs a Model T engine in a way that is appreciated and valued by others who share the same pursuits for one. Having the project fail due to an unforeseen design flaw at this juncture would be unfortunate. Having it fail due to wide spread false, unsubstantiated assumptions of its actual performance spewed recklessly by influential individuals would be despicable. I remain hopeful there will be equal support for higher standards and demanding greater accountability on this forum when someone offers opposing or critical views of a product.
Mike, I am sorry you have been treated the way you have.
There are some on here who absolutely refuse to believe that there are folks out there incapable of maintaining their cars. I know of one such man who doesn't even check oil (or understand the importance of it). That individual has a new mag, rebuilt coils, FP coilbox kit and an Anderson timer in his car. He had a set of points act up on him and just kept driving it on three. I asked him why he didn't change it out with his spare coil and realized he didn't know how to find the offending one.
Your E timer when it becomes available will be the perfect solution for him regardless what the purist think (the purist aren't the ones he calls all the time). I didn't contact you concerning being an evaluator as this car and the owner would be the wrong one to evaluate it on.
I applaud your efforts on a well thought out product and wish you the best in its development. Remember this, at one time most of the folks who thought they knew it all were convinced the earth was flat.
The purists may not like it, which is understandable, but the purists are not at all the entire hobby.
If it does everything that you and those that are testing the initial samples claim, then I feel rather certain that it will be successful.
Again, good luck with your E-Timer.
Let's see........ safety glass, ethanol gasoline, tires from Vietnam, acrylic paint, multi viscosity oil.....I think there is room for the e-timer and others in this hobby.
There’s no excuse for negativity for negativity’s sake. Negativity in a constructive manner is another story. We see some of both on this forum.
Now, I would like to maybe explain why your product gets some of the comments it does. I guess I would be considered by most to be a purist. Not in the ‘purist’ sense of the word, but probably by many people’s standards. To me, the transmission and the ignition system ARE the Model T Ford. I can safely say I don’t see owning an E-Timer. That is not meant to be negative, nor is it a reflection on you or your product. It just seems, in my mind, to be an abomination to mix computer electronics with a 90 year old car. Taking away its stock ignition system is like ripping the soul out of the car. Yes, I know it is easily reversible. I know the magneto doesn’t have to be disabled. Maybe I can’t explain it. It just seems ‘wrong.’ If it is any consolation, I feel the same way about a Tru-Fire, and for the same reasons. Many have said that it is a good alternative when a magneto goes bad. Maybe, but for me in that case, I would take the 3-4 hundred bucks and apply that to working on my mag. Most of us feel we should preserve the Model T and some feel that includes its little nuances like the ignition system. That is my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it, but I would venture to guess, I am not alone in my opinion and that is why some feel the way they do, right or wrong. Some are just more vocal and less tactful than others.
Having said all that, I am interested in how it works. I am impressed by your ingenuity. And I am impressed by the gain in performance. I asked on the other thread to what the improvement was attributed, but at last look had not seen an answer. I have not looked today, yet.
Thank you, Hal. Exactly how I feel.
A sign hanging in a research engineer's office:
"Epluribus illigitimus non-carbarundom."
(only guessing at the spelling)
"Don't let the bastards wear you down."
In over 100 years this is not the first [better mousetrap] to come along.People asked questions and i had mine also about free starts,and possable sealing issues from inside and outside?? By no means a expert or sr or anything else but these were honnest querstios! The last better mousetrap [true fire] im told also has had it's share of problems or so we are told? Myself i don't see how you or your new product were used bad but i think i see a problem with your post 12/8/1.27 !! I rember many years ago at the Oldsmoble main plant when there was a visit from Roger B. Smith! !0,000,942, elevin posters saying Will Rogers never met Roger B.Smith!!! You ,Like Mr Ford may actually have a near perfect product for the time but you may need someone to promote,and sell it?? Bud.
This back and forth combat over accessories is looking more and more like a bizarre game of poker. "Well played. I see your waterpump, and raise you a distributor and top it with disk brakes!" Anymore takers?
This could actually be the better mousetrap but when drawn down to the lower levle of some of these post,can it get a chanch to prove itself?? Bud.
Hal and Edward, I completely understand your views, accept them respect them and admire them. The original Model T ignition system is a true electro-mechanical marvel worthy of preservation as I have stated before.
Your views were made without stating any inaccurate, incorrect, unsubstantiated, or uneducated assumptions about the E-Timer performance as the basis for your views. I have no issue with that what so ever and commend you both for perserving automotive history for all who follow.
When I was a kid and a bearing acted up on the wagon, we stopped and gave it all the attention while the other three wheels quietly did their job. I guess what I'm saying is, maybe it isn't as important to listen to the loud noise than to consider the quiet majority.
Hang in there and keep at it. After all, we purists are violating our very principles by using modern oils that flow even in cold weather! I haven't had to jack up a back wheel on a Ford in over 60 years of driving! And I drive my T the year round.
Mike, just out of curiosity, and no disrespect intended, what exactly was the "false, unsubstantiated assumptions of its actual performance spewed recklessly by influential individuals" that you are referring to? Is it the assumption that accidently leaving the key on will kill a coil? That is the only thing that looked to me like it might be considered an "unbsubstantiated assumption" that I found in the other thread (E-timer performance report). This seems to me to be a legitimate concern. You then stated that the E-timer will tolerate the situation, although it wasn't recommended. In my opinion (I'm walking on egg shells here, 'cause I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, just looking for the answers) your answer was somewhat inadequate. I would be curious to know exactly what would happen if you left your key on say, overnight, with a 12 volt system. In other words, what is the worst case scenario? Does a fuse blow? Does a coil get hot but live? Does nothing bad happen at all? Anyway, I'm not trying to be negative, but rather just trying to be constructive and gather information.
Amazing! a thread about the E timer without any personal insults or attacks, I knew there were some gentlemen out there capable of keeping their minds open enough to see the real picture. Everyone should base their opinions on facts not conjecture, I for one am very interested in any new product that comes along geared towards making our cars [and by extention our hobby ] safer, more enjoyable, more reliable or longer lasting. I'm sure there were people opposed to the introduction of electric lights, starter, generator, shocks and a host of other things that came along in the past hundred or so years,so to those of you brave enough to remove your blinders and take a look arround I commend you, to the rest, enjoy the view from behind
Alan, it's all in the eye of the beholder. I saw "personal insults and attacks" in this thread's initial post. We all know Mike was referring to Royce, but he seemingly tried to disguise it by taking a broad swipe.
I know it's tough to have your ideas challenged.
Interestingly Jim Kenealy wrote three books on Model T accessories. Seems making a T better is as American as a T is to apple pie. Making your T better is as old as the car. I would be interested in an E-timer I added a rear view mirror (cops spotter) to my car. Keep going Mike. I might add that being an antiques collector for going on 30 years the motto is one should not do what cannot be undone. An E-timer can be removed at anytime and the car can become pure again for purist. It therefore is a welcome addition in my view.
Ralph, don't start with my friend Royce again .
Mike, for the second time, could/would you build the Etimer into a Ford Model NRS timer? Also, the N timer is on the back of the engine and probably subject to more heat than a T timer.
It seems to me that the introduction of new technology such as the E timer and Tru Fire are the modern day equivalent of adding a distributor back in the day just like assembling a speedster is akin to modern hot rods. Not original but ever evolving additions to the long list of accessories that began with the introduction of the first automobile. Build it...and they will change it.
I know the E-Timer does not allow the car to run on magneto.
Also, the E-Timer retails for $400.
Is this disinformation? Please correct this disinformation if it is wrong.
I know the E-Timer does not allow the car to run on magneto.
Also, the E-Timer retails for $400.
Is this disinformation? Please correct this disinformation if it is wrong.
Rick, I for one don't know if Royce was the only one Mike was referring to but an old saying goes an insult can never be given only taken, another old saying "If the shoe fits wear it". Maybe all responces to posted topics should start with the words "In my humble opinion" that is unless you have actual knowledge about the subject of which you speak. I have read many posts to which Royce has responded and I would agree that he seems extremly well versed in the ways and workings of the Model T, however it is my "humble opinion" that on this subject he should do some research, maybe Mike Kossor could send him a copy of the article as published in the MTFCI magazine then he could give an informed opinion. In closing I hope that I did not offend you, Royce, or any one else named or otherwise, my only objective was to respond to your post,I hope everyone can get back to the matter at hand,helping to make the world a better place one "T" at a time
No help here only more questions?? If one wheel on the wagon makes noise should the other 3 be checked?? In my humble opinion would the other 3 have covered the same distance and carried the same load??? Nope,It was not my intent to po anyone,but seeing we now need to use in my humble opinion i was just trying it out before i asked another question?? PS,I can walk on top of my pond now but winter here has not been this bad yet!! Bud.
I will be installing my etimer on my RH drive '13.
I think one of the big advantages of the etimer is going to be the automatic spark advance option. I have encountered a significant number of T drivers who do not have a hot clue as to where the spark lever should be set for varying driving conditions.
I, as a Beta tester, have stepped up and spent my $400.00, so my opinions will be based on whether I am satisfied that I have received value for my money. So far, having received the product and the installation instructions, I am satisfied. Given the weather here, it will be awhile before I can drive it.
I have posted various new products here as well, and have been trashed for them. After awhile you develope a thick skin!!
Then too, the gasoline engine was still not very popular when Henry Ford introduced the Model T.
He had stiff competition from steam and electric cars then.
We would all be driving electric Model Ts, if Thomas Edison could have perfected the storage battery, like he was paid to build.
That didn't really bother Henry a lot, the Magneto was a good work around.
Kenneth have you actualy walked on your pond or is it just you humble opinion that you could?
... I'll wait for the more reliable vacuum tube version .... being the boat-anchor kind of guy that I am!
All said in good fun - I hope to get an E-Timer soon for my racer.
"We all know Mike was referring to Royce..."
Mike seems to be a literate educated person. If he meant to specifically chastise Royce he has the capability of doing so without your help. However, either because his frustrations seem to be with more of us than possibly Royce, or because he has too much class, he choose not to.
Why assume " We all know Mike was referring to Royce..."
I believe Mike was making reference to the negative nellies without their "research" proof in general.
Please be specific. What negative nellies?
I'm at a loss to see it.
Sorry, but I think I missed something.
I found an earlier thread on the E-Timer,and after reading it again I must confess I would not mind trying one out. Sounds like it could be a real boon and having someone figure this out is a great idea - keep up the good work, and look forward to the prototype test results.
HOWEVER, I did not see any 'negative' comments in the thread throwing aspersions on the technology behind it, so I guess they must have been made elsewhere.
My call from what I read is that this is being watched with great interest.
Amen, now that that's out of the way It's my humble opinion that the E-timer runs much better than the "disconect the magnetto & run on the car on battery for free" senarieo. Also it's my humble opinion that even with the "model T system" that if the key is left on and a coil is buzzing that the tar will boil out of it in time (I have witnessed this my self) resulting in burnt points & a sticky mess. But why would you leave the key on anyway????? Well the car didn't start (dead of winter) so I ran for a jack and when I got back there was a nasty smell of tar.
Mike your doing a great job, so move forward & keep up the great work. Knowing the way "T"ers are weather its a E-timer, waterpump, anti-ratlers, Klaxton horns, or any of the thousands of accessories available to the hobbiest people will try new things. Pep Boys started with the model T & they don't sell any origanal equipment, yet they are still here after all these years.
Oh by the way did I mention AMEN.
Let me see (also): Air conditioning, Model A crank, oil pump, bearing inserts, Z head, Sipe cam, fat intake, disc brakes, KC Warford, Ruckstell, Becker 12V generator and 12V starter,
speedometer, turn signals, hydrogen generator...but I refuse to alter the ignition (at least to this point), and I don't use a water pump (anymore). I'm interested to hear more about the new timer. I guess my 25 is less than "pure" huh? (My 23 is though.)
I learned a long time ago that 'If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say nothing at all'.
I will admit I do not follow this to a 'T', pun intended, but the older I get the more I keep my mouth shut.
The E-timer looks like a good idea, and it will be interesting to follow this thread and others regarding this topic. I am reading the article now in Model T Times.
Mike, thank you for putting in the effort to create the E-timer. Good Luck.
I have contacted Mike and will purchase and be part of the Beta testing of the E-timer.
Next year will be a traveling year fore me, plan on attending Cowboys & Coalmines tour then travel Canada for 17 days until the mtfci tour in Rochester. I will travel 8,000+ miles if my car & I can hold together.
P.S. from Iowa? what town?
Welcome to the Beta Testers. Looking forward to your results, good & not so good.
of Central New Jersey
Thanks, Mike, for putting such an effort into the project. I'll be wanting one when they are ready. It looks to me that this thing promises performance superior to coils operating on magneto. This does not mean the mag will be useless. A device is available to keep a battery charged using the mag. Many pre-starter cars use a small battery for starting anyway. Such a car with an e-timer will look just the same as original. I think it's great that people make reproduction and upgrade parts available. I also have great regard for those who maintain and drive T's just as Henry built them. I'm glad there is room on this forum as well as on the road for all of us.
Erik, I though I discovered a spelling error in your post so I looked Fordially up in my dictionary and sure enough there it was right between aFordable, Fordunate,and Forditude. sorry Ford doubting you, it's a word i'll never Fordget. Fordially ,Al
Hey Al, I might have found an error in yours!!!LOL
Alan, thanks Ford the note. Actually, it is a term coined by the late, great Billy Poohbah. He used it in his Forrdespondence with me for many years. It was a privelige to have Fordged a friendship with the great man.
Erik, as my nephew pointed out there is a spelling error in my post, and I think it ironic that I left out the letter "T" in the word thought, I only hope that I'm Fordgiven, if not I'll have to live with the shame Fordever,well I hope you and yours have a good holiday I know I'm looking Fordward to it. Al
Alan, I had not Fordseen the direction this thread would take. It's been fun. May the Fordse be with you.
Erik, if we had the Fordsight to see where it might lead us we might not have made the trip, I rather enjoyed the journey . Thanks, Fordially Al
Alan and all other forum brethren,
Ford score and twenty one years ago our Fordfather brought Fordth on this continent, a new ignition, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all cylinders are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great cyber war, testing whether that ignition, or any ignition so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great Ford-um of that war. We dedicate a portion of this Ford-um as a place who gave their input that the ignition might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
and with thanks to president Lincoln,
Wasn't that President Ford?
: ^ )
You guys have gotta stop!
Oh Ford heaven's sake!
What FORD you speak ???
Don't forget the "Brave New World" and the year of our Ford....
Sorry Mike...these thread divergences sometimes happen...but since others started it...I just can't resist
Ford he's a jolly good fellow, ford he's a jolly good fellow. Ford he's a jolly good fellow, which nobody can deny.
Which nobody can deny, which nobody can deny. Ford he's a jolly good fellow, which nobody can deny...
(And for our OZ and Oceana and other British friends, a second verse)
Ford he's a jolly good fellow, ford he's a jolly good fellow. Ford he's a jolly good fellow and so say all of us.
And so say all of us, and so say all of us. Ford he's a jolly good fellow, ford he's a jolly good fellow. Ford he's a jolly good fellow and so say all of us
bye for now, more Christmas party 'punch' is calling
Is this just holiday spirits running over? Stay out of that wine sauce. It is bad for your health.
Actually the E-timer is a remarkable piece of modern engineering and component miniaturization.
There is a complete micro-processor in the standard Ford Timer cap.
There are also no moving parts that rub on each other to cause wear.
Mike deserves a big "ATTA BOY' for writing the software program for that computer and designing a 21st Century Model T ignition system.
This thread has been a fun ride. All that aside, thanks again to Mike for making the e-timer happen.