Model A intake and exhaust manifolds

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: Model A intake and exhaust manifolds
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry A.Woods on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 01:53 am:

Will a Model A intake and exhaust manifold clear the firewall, frame, and anything else that might possibly be in the way if used on a stock bodied 26-27 improved car without engine pans? I know a custom exhaust would have to be constructed. Also, I guess the spacer plate that some of the vendors sell, would have to be used to make things line up. What gaskets should be used between the block and the plate, and what gaskets should be used between the plate and the manifolds?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 12:01 pm:

Terry

The A manifold will clear the Improved T firewall. Here is a '27 Touring at the Rapid City tour last summer with that setup, you can see the A manifold clearing just great.

A custom exhaust pipe has to have a sweep down low to clear the running board brace and clever lever cross shaft....



Not sure what the gaskets used are, but the mfg of that adapter plate, he's in CA, could let you know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 01:20 pm:

Dan, is that a Model B set up, carb and all?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller - Mostly in Dearborn, MI on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 01:24 pm:

Since my kid keeps pushing Model As into my shop and causing clutter, I can assure you those are not stock A manifolds. They sure are neat though.

The A-exhaust drops straight down. The flange Dan shows along with the clamp are correct, but I have no idea how the outlet got so far up and rearward.

The flat on the top of the intake and the front boss with the plug are not stock either.

Also the carb mounting flange appears to be rotated 10 degrees off the vehicle centerline. Not so on a stock setup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 02:11 pm:

OK, I'll bite. What are the advantages to using A manifolds on a T?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 02:21 pm:

The intake is a '32 Model B, the best one made by Ford for the 4 cyl car.

Thought that manifold for the exhaust was Model A, guess if not, then Model B as the owner told me about that intake manifold and why he chose it for his modified T.

Here is similar set up on the manifolds, guess these are later Model B, the engine is a Model A crammed into that Model T frame with a '25 touring body.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff V on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 03:32 pm:

Definatly Model B exhaust


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 03:39 pm:

Definitely not A. The outlet to the pipe points straight down on the A manifolds. I'm running and A exhaust on my T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 03:40 pm:

The Model A exhaust outlet went straight down not out at an angle like the one your showing. Still looks good.
So tell me why I find the B intake is the best? Enquiring minds want to know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 03:44 pm:

Dennis, to start, the A carb has a 1/8 in larger throat and is nearly double the CFM as the NH. This the A intake and exhaust is also larger. The A mainifolds (both) are less restrictive in their designs of longer smoother bends


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry A.Woods on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 04:22 pm:

Thanks to everyone, especially Dan, who posted on this one. I recognised the Model B exhaust manifold as soon as I saw the first picture, as I knew the Model B exited at 45 degrees. Unfortunately, Model B manifolds seem scarce compared to A exhaust manifolds so I'll use an A manifold. I was going to use one of Chaffin's "Milesbuilt" dual outlet manifolds, but I convinced myself that custom fabricating one exhaust pipe was all I wanted to get involved with, plus the A manifold will probably flow as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry A.Woods on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 04:25 pm:

P.S.: I forgot to ask Clayton, since he said he is running this setup, what gaskets do I use?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john a voss on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 04:39 pm:

Clayton -- what's that high wheeler in the background of the photo ??

thanks -- jack


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 05:42 pm:

Shame someone doesn't tool up and cast the Model B intakes and exhaust manifolds.
I like the look of them.
The B exhaust looks like a bigger version (somewhat) of the standard T.

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 05:43 pm:

Terry,

I had originally used just the stock T gaskets as the port spacing is the same. They didn't last long, so when I replaced them I just made my own using exhaust gasket material. I don't see why you couldn't use a Model A gasket though.

Jack,

Not to "hijack" this thread, but the high wheeler in the background is a 1906 Holsman Model 10 Stanhope bodied "Auto Buggy". It belongs to a very dear friend of mine and is completely original, save for fuel and regular maintenance. It is a 2 cylinder (air cooled) opposed firing engine that runs the wheels via "Jack Shaft" and belt drive. It was researched as the 3rd car registered in the city of Pocatello, Idaho and was purchased new by a doctor, H.A.Castle who owned it until sometime in the mid to late 1920's when he traded it to 2 brothers (early enthusiasts) for a Zenith floor model radio. It had been sitting in the garage long enough that 2 trees had grown up in front of the doors and had to be cut down in order to remove the car...but it was driven out under its own power. My friends have owned her since 1967.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Phil Mino, near Porterville on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 06:48 pm:

The engine in that '25 Touring is a Model B, not a Model A. Note the 3 bolt waterpump, deep valve cover and the oil pan with the lower half of the flywheel housing as an integral part.

175150

This also appears to be a "diamond" block.

A good site for information about these engines is hosted by Vince Falter:

Vince Falter's site

Notes on the diamond block:

diamond block notes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 02:39 am:

By tyrone thomas on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 03:44 pm:

Dennis, to start, the A carb has a 1/8 in larger throat and is nearly double the CFM as the NH. This the A intake and exhaust is also larger. The A mainifolds (both) are less restrictive in their designs of longer smoother bends.

Thanks Tyrone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 09:47 am:

Well your welcome Dennis. Thank you. I am always looking for ways to make the poor mans "race" engine. Wanting to squeese every dimes worth of power out of the T engine within a budget and within the time frame of the model T and model A. So far I figure Im up to 26 hp +/-. When I get my lastest project running, we will know.
Get in, Sit Down and HANG ON.!
Always looking for ideas Dennis.
Oh by the way, that "this the A intake..." should have read "thus the A intake..." sorry. My degree is in Public Administration, not English Comp. :-) Great day


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 08:06 pm:

I've been a Hot Rodder all my life. I too am one who has always been looking 1 or 2 extra ponies. My beloved "Lizzie" is the lowest performance thing I've ever owned. That said, I'm going to start a discussion here that will probably last for months.
It seems to me that the biggest impediment to "VE" (volumetric efficiency) on a T is the shared intake ports rather than the induction system, thus the invention of the Rajo heads and other OHV conversions.
Is there really enough VE/HP to be gained by this T to A conversion on such a low RPM engine to justify the work and parts involved?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 10:21 pm:

I used to run model B manifolds like that on my 1927 T. The B has the rear pointing back just like the model T exhaust manifold does. I did find I had to bend the stiffener arm which goes from the top of the hogshead down to the motor mount so that it clears the exhaust.

I've got my manifolds, carbs, adapter plates etc. all in a milk crate on the shelf now... probably will never use them again.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry A.Woods on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 10:25 pm:

Dennis, I assume it depends on how far from stock, you wish to go. As for an A or B engine and trans in a T, you know because of a longer stroke that you're going to have more low end torque, and because A's could cruise at and obtain higher top speeds than a T, then an A or B equipped T should run faster and pull hills, better. On the other hand, if you're just talking about putting A or B manifolds and carburetor and maybe cam in a T, you aren't going to see as much improvement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 12:00 am:

That's what I was thinking Terry. Unless you hogged out the ports on the head and used a cam with a real long duration, you'd have to be on a chassis dyno to see the difference.
When Tim Foye built my custom engine, he used a "Z" head, a high lift cam, aluminum pistons, an aluminum intake and a modified NH.
I figured that would be about the best I could do, considering the lay-out. That 3 main bearing crank doesn't look to me like something that's going to lend it's self to a lot of "high performance" modifications, unless you're willing to start there with steel and work your way up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry A.Woods on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 12:43 am:

Dennis, I think you meant, "hogged out the ports on the block", not head, but you are pretty close with your "figuring". I haven't done it yet, but a noticable improvement can be had by using Model A or B intake and exhaust manifolds and carburetor, because of their superior flow rates. Otherwise, speedster guys wouldn't use them. I have also heard or read that an A or B cam , if custom ground, can yield some improvement, as the amount of lift and duration can be varied to suit performance needs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 01:01 am:

Heres how I see it. A major drawback with the T engine is its ability to breath or lack of. The seccess of the period racing heads was in the area of improved breathing. If the exhaust can't get out, the fresh air can't get in. Without breathing little else you do is going to matter. Now there is little you can do to the design of the T head to improve the ports other then smooth them and increase their size but that won't be much. Not enough to notice in the way of power increase. However, to me the movement of air, be it exhaust or fresh, is within the head such a minute time that does not matter a great deal. It is beyound the ports that the T has the main problem which the A manifolds help greatly.
The A intake has a larger ID allowing for a greater amount of fresh air/fuel mix to be at hand. The bends of the runners are long and bends are of a greater radius or smoother curves allowing for greater speed for air going into the cylinder.
The A exhaust also is of a larger ID allowing for a greater amount of burnt gasses to flow with less restriction caused by the other cylinders dumping. The radius like on the intake are greater or smoother flowing. Third, as you see each exhaust port has its own short runner from the head to the exhaust manifolds main area of body. Each of these short runners gives an area for the evacuted exhaust gasses to evacuate to allowing a greater fresh air/fuel load to come in. The T exhaust manifold does not allow for a fast evacuation of burnt gasses for several reasons. A conjoining cylinder dumps its exhaust directly into the path of another causing a blocking action or bottle neck and thus slowing evacuation of burnt gasses in the fired cylinder and thus allowing a less charge of fresh air/fuel mix from coming in.
Then of course the increased CFM of the A carb to supply an increased amout of go mix avaliable. Granted the T engine will not fully utilize this greater amount of go mix but why restrict the fuel mix if the T wants more?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 01:05 am:

sorry, I meant to say the ports in the block, not in the head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 05:07 am:

That makes sense Tyrone. Maybe some day I'll look into that. I've never been the kind of guy that can leave well enough alone. And yes, I meant block. You'd think with my love for Flathead V8's, I'd be able to keep that straight by now. My 27 Tudor was destined to have a Flathead V8 in it when I bought it but it was just such a nice original "survivor", I didn't have the heart to modify it (too much). The only thing "stock" about the engine that's in it right now, is the block, the crank, and the exhaust manifold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 11:12 am:

Oh Dennis now your talking. A Flat 8. It just bugs me to no end that ford bodied hotrods use a chevy engine. Im sorry but the flat 8 has got to be the coolest looking engine around and Im sure they can be punched up. I figured that is my next project. A road racer with a flat 8.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 04:08 pm:

There was a picture posted on this forum once of a T Touring with a V8-60 in it. It was so well done, it looked like it came there from the factory. It was very deceiving, it made it look like a simple engine swap but I know that it was a "from the ground-up" kind of project and there was almost no T parts left in that frame including the steering, if it was sitting on a T frame at all. That's why my T still has a T engine in it. I wasn't ready to take apart a perfectly good 'driver' that just needed a little "TLC" and start over from scratch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber, Spanaway, Wa on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 05:38 pm:

Flathead V8s are sweet running engines.
Here's the one in my '40 coupe.
But I still like driving my stock rusty '24 tudor just as much.


v8


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen-Central Minnesota on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 06:34 pm:

Back to Model T manifold options; I bought a Model T header from Red's, but I haven't got it installed yet. It does require some creativity with regards to the intake manifold. A stock T or A intake will not work without spacers. I've decided to go with a period downdraft carb and fab my own intake.

http://reds-headers.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=798


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 09:34 pm:

I have never seen a T header before. The two outer tubes don't leave much room for the T intake does it? Back when I piped my racer, I ordered individual header tubes from jegs and a header plate and made my own.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen-Central Minnesota on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 10:33 pm:

Tyrone,
I bet that one has a nice tone! The setup gives your car that all out racer look.

One thing that I like about the Red's header, is that it has clearance for a stock T generator while keeping the pipes inside the frame rails. That will give my speedster the street/track look that I'm after.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber, Spanaway, Wa on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 10:43 pm:

My T speedster has a homemade header (I didn't make it) that fits inside the frame.
It has a Rajo head and I'm running a straight pipe.
Really sounds cool! Not too loud, but has a really nice crackle sound.


t


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 12:28 am:

the Gentleman speedster i building now will have the exhaust tucked inside the hood. I am going to have a single tube come out of the center of a vaporizer manifold. Where the tin plate is. The pipe will come out, curve down and back enough that I can get a Model A Tilloson carb in there with plenty of work room. On the racer I got the design from 20's race photos.
Lets keep this thread going. Im seeing some great ideas. Thanks all for sharing. Especially the photos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Black FLA/S.C. on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 07:59 am:

One of my speedsters has the B manifolds, the other has Vaporizer manifolds. Both have intakes that have been closed at the bottom, opened at the top, and a "boss" added for a downdraft carb. One runs a Stromberg 94 and the other a Carter W-1. You have to add an electric fuel pump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 11:15 am:

Mike, I can't read, can you show us photos? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danny Thomason on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 01:12 pm:

Where can I buy a tube header for a T? I am using a flathead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Black FLA/S.C. on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 06:31 pm:

Tyrone,
I took these today but, they aren't very good. First is the Vaporizer with the Stromberg and the next is the B model with the W-1. Some folks will worry about the carb over the exhaust,but, I've never had a problem (I do carry a fire extinguisher in all my cars ) Strom 94Carter W-1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 10:34 pm:

Thanks Mike for the photos. Interesting how you adapted the intakes to carbs. I like.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Murray - Anacortes, WA on Wednesday, December 15, 2010 - 11:23 pm:

Hi Terry, I think your original question was "Will a Model A intake and exhaust manifold clear the firewall, frame, and anything else that might possibly be in the way if used on a stock bodied 26-27 improved car without engine pans?" The answer is yes !!


Model A Carb & Exh


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration