FAULTLESS PROGRESS - STARTER MOTOR

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: FAULTLESS PROGRESS - STARTER MOTOR
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JAMES STARKEY on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 03:35 pm:

Not exactly any progress to report as I'm waiting on an electrician to show up and install a 220 line in my garage fo rme so I can install a 'Barn Heater'. It's a deep freeze in my workshop.

In the mean time I'm doing some smaller indoor projects. I have a 6V starter motor that needs some TLC. It was working but covered in dirt and grease inside where I couldn't even see the brushes thrugh the inspection holes. After some cleaning up, the two wires running from the field coils revealed they had completly lost their coverings and had some sloppy electrical tape falling off of them and will likely create a short off the body if I test the starter. I want to pull the armature out to recover or replace the wires but the 6 screws that mount in the yoke look to have not been touched since IKE was President and will not budge. This is the same with the large pole screws in the body if I need to remove those. The pole screws are really chewed up and even peened. I was wondering what I might try to remove them without inflicting more damage. Below are some pics of the general condition of the starter as I'm not an expert with starters and somebody may notice something else I need to address. As I said, this thing was working before I fooled around with it so I really only want to replace those two wires at this point unless somebody observes some other things to address based on the photos below. Jimmy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 03:45 pm:

Jim
If the Bendix drive is removed you do not have to remove the six screws that hold the mounting bracket to the case to remove the armature. It should simply pull out of the case.
The pole shoe screws are very tight and staked so they do not come loose. The usual method to remove and install them is to use a pole shoe screwdriver.
Pole shoe screwdriver
The worn Babbitt bushing in the brush cap should be replaced with the ball bearing kit sold by some Model T parts suppliers and a oil seal in the bracket would help.
ball bearing kit
oil seal
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 04:34 pm:

For one thing, you better replace the gear. As rough as that one is, it will wear the ring gear faster than it should. that will eventually result in needing to pull the engine/transmission to replace the ring gear or clean pieces out. You might want to replace the Bendix spring also.
Because a model T does have a crank, and therefore won't leave you stranded when the starter fails, you could choose to leave other things "less than pristine". For the disintegrating insulation on those wires. First, remove the tape on them. Then clean the whole thing in a bucket of mild paint thinner (mineral spirits). Don't get aggressive with a brush or other tools on any of the wiring. Rinse it several times. Blow it out with an air compressor hose. Let it drip and dry for a day, then blow it out again.
Go to an electronic supply store, hopefully you can find a good one. There are several types of small tubing made specifically for covering wire in need of insulation. It comes in both uncut and spiral cut in a variety of materials and sizes. (I don't know what they might call it now, but it used to be called "spaghetti".) Get an appropriate size, and you will probably want the spiral cut.
Also get some "insulating dope".
Cut the "spaghetti" to the appropriate length. Wrap it around the wire. Work it back as close the the field windings as you can. Paint a few coats of the insulating dope onto the wires, spaghetti, field windings and anything else that looks like it could use it. Don't put any on the brushes or any electrical contacts that are not meant to be insulated.
This does not count as a "rebuilt starter", (or generator). But a good old working unit fixed this way could be a good old working unit for decades to come.

One other thing. the end bearing and commutator are a little rough. Use a flat file to take the high spots on the commutator down about half way. Then use fine emery tape to polish both the commutator and bearing. Use a knife or other tool to scrape between the commutator pieces.

As I recall, you were going to try to have the car together in time for your daughter to drive it for something. Is that still on? Or did this turn into one of those "bigger than planned" projects?
Drive safe, and Happy Holidays, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JAMES STARKEY on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 04:42 pm:

Thanks for that info Ron. What 's involved in removal/replacing that bearing with the kit shown? Mine looks really worn out and obviously it needs replacement. Do I start by grinding off the heads of those copper rivets to drive the brush plate out??? IF SO, ARE THOSE RIVETS SOMETHING I CAN EASILY REPLACE/reinstall? Sorry about these basic questions but I just haven't messed with a starter motor much before. In the past, for any car, I always took them to a speciality shop for repair or rebuild but I'm on an 'early' retirement budget and now I have to DIY everything. Jimmy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JAMES STARKEY on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 05:00 pm:

Howdy Wayne, Thanks for the input.
No, I still plan on having the Speedster ready for 2011 and the Faultless shell is close to being finished. I learned my lesson on that Ariel motorcycle I sent you pictures of when it comes to 'going too far' on a project.
As far as a running chassis, I started with a hodge podge of random chassis parts, two swap meet engines and a transmission of doubtful usefulness. Having focused only on the Faultless body and little else these past months, I'm now finding there is a heck of a lot more to get done than I realized. Of course if this were a 'reality' TV show I'd have finished it in 5 days with three minutes to spare before the Midnight deadline. My reality is: I'm currently a crew of one in an ice cold garage so fixing starter motors and carbs and things I can drag in the house to work on are the order of the day. Jimmy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Stitt on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 05:51 pm:

All sound advice. If the coils and leads are not to be pulled then one might consider RTV tape on the leads. If electrical tape, coat the leads with liquid electrical tape after taping. Ron has a nice pole shoe machine set up. I hit 'em with a 1/2 air wrench but I'm lazy. If you don't have a pole shoe machine and you really want to do the work yourself hit the pole shoe screw (use what ever un-PC method you like) and it will relieve the tension on the screw and will be easy to remove.
Un-PC? Center punch the screw or use round stock and sit it on the head and hit it, etc, etc...But I never said it..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 08:39 pm:

James
It is not necessary to remove the brushplate to remove the old Babbitt bushing and install the new ball bearing kit. You can drill out the soft old Babbitt bushing and clean the stamped bore for installing the 6201 1/2 ID bearing.
Having said that you SHOULD remove the brushplate and inspect because most of the faults occur on the back where you cannot see when installed. You can rebuilt your brushplate with the videos available from the MTFCA. The rebuilt brushplate can be easily riveted back into the cap.
Removing the pole shoe screws is easy, but if you are installing a new field you will need a pole shoe spreader and pole shoe screwdriver.
You can turn and finish the armature commutator on a lathe. It is not necessary to undercut the mica because the starter uses hard copper brushes.
If you run into trouble contact me in the shop.
Ron the Coilman
859-881-1677


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin, Branch/Lafayette, LA on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 11:24 pm:

Interesting! Please keep the pictures coming as you rebuild!

I'm thinking of coating the feilds in mine with that red electrical insulating compound that you dip your plier handles in. Should work fine and probably would take care of the damaged leads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Mitchell on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 10:47 pm:

Ron knows his stuff when it comes to rebuilding these starters I have one of his rebuilds in my speedster and it might just be the best working T starter I've ever heard, well Bob J has one of Ron's also, just as good. It works so good maybe we should also refer to him as Ron the starter man. Good job Ron.


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