Surprise

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: Surprise
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 11:11 pm:

I was working on my 24 coupe today when I looked down at my Oil Pan Arm.

A49

So I spent the rest of the day getting ready to pull the motor tomorrow. I looked around my junk piles and could not find any 4 dip pans. I had a stack of 11 four dip pans but sold 9 of them to a guy from Arizona. I kept one for a spare but later installed that one on my 16. The other I threw in the junk pile. I was going to take the junk pile to the scrappers tomorrow but now I think I will have to pull the pan out of the junk pile and remove one of the arms and put it on this pan. Note, I live about a mile off the highway on a rough road but other than that I try to keep my Ts off of any dirt roads. I have only 20,000 mile on the coupe but of coarse I have no idea how much it was driven on old dirt roads before I bought it at a ranch sale.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Conner - Sanford, NC on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 11:39 pm:

Dave, you made the fatal mistake of looking down. ;)

I suppose if you could get the geometry right, you could probably weld that back together without much problem. Of course, those pans are nearly a dime a dozen.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Floyd Voie, Chehalis, Wa on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 11:49 pm:

Dave,
Do you have the crankcase arm wooden blocks in the frame channel?
Good Luck
Floyd


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 11:59 pm:

This is what happens when you skip the wooden blocks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin, Branch/Lafayette, LA on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 12:03 am:

OH NO! :-(
Too bad you're not closer, I have a few extra pans.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money, Braidwood, IL on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 12:26 am:

I'd weld it where it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 12:33 am:

Robert:

I know that I could weld it, but I am not sure how much I would have trusted it. I have a Belly Pan that I could have put under it after welding but I wanted to pull the motor anyway to check on a few things. I think I would be a lot more confortable with another Arm riveted on the pan. I like to drive it in the winter with a manifold heater, its quite warm.

A108-1

A365


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 12:51 am:

Floyd and Jerry:

I had wooden blocks in the arms and they are or were tight. they are new blocks or least they were new in 1980, 30 years ago.

Below Cameron Pass to the East.

A750


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 01:52 am:

Dave,
I had a pan with a break similar to yours. It had been welded and had a reinforcement strap added in the channel area where the bolt holes are. The strap went from the outer top edge of the arm over and down past the lower bolt hole. It was welded in place and drilled for both bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 04:01 am:

Dave, that is why you should never send anything to the scrapper!!! Some day, it will come in handy. Good thing you caught it when you did. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 04:04 am:

By the way, once you get the engine out, that can be welded very easily and wiil probably out last you and me both. If I was closer, I would do it for you. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 07:04 am:

Dave,
Almost as a matter of course these days, I add reinforcements to ears which show any sign of cracking or distortion. Rivetting and brazing a replacement arm requires a lot of work and heat. I find it much easier and more satisfactory to weld up the cracks, after v-ing them to allow good penetration. Then, rather than add a reinforcing strap on top of the ear between the ribs, I bend up two pieces of rod and weld those under the ears in the grooves of the ribs. That way they are not seen, but give a really strong reinforcement.

If your pan has been doing the job well,this would seem to be the least disruptive way to go.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 10:12 am:

Dave, I am getting ready to put one of my Model T crankcase support saddles (I have 2) on ebay, which hangs over each of the the chassis frame rails at the crankcase ears and goes up under the oil pan then is tightened to take the weight of the engine off of the ears. There is a hole in the saddle for access to the oil plug.

One of these might save you alot of work and give your engine the support it needs until your next rebuild. Also, they are really neat looking Model T era accessories. I'll post a picture here if you'd like to see it, or both. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John A Kuehn on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 11:27 am:

I agree with David Stroud. That arm can be permently repaired. Once you get the engine out you can weld the arm back on.
You probaly already know this but the the arm needs to be welded from BOTH sides to make it a permanet fix.
While we are on engine pans I have often wondered how the arms stayed on as long as the have. The brazing job sure looks awful rough on just about any T pan.
If these were being made these days they would be almost surely be welded using stick arc or mig wlding. Probly mig welded.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 11:42 am:

I don't believe it needs to be welded from both sides. We weld plenty on railcars with thicker metal than on these ears, by grinding a V at the break and building it up from one side with stick or mig. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 11:45 am:

PS. just bring the two edges together as much as possible by jacking the crankcase up before grinding and welding so the crankcase won't be misaligned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 12:02 pm:

Related situation/question:

A few years ago when I took my truck apart I found that both pan ears were missing. Instead, there were aftermarket (Apco?) replacement ears on each side (not the support that goes under the pan). Also, there were no wood chassis blocks in place.

When I put it back together I used the same pan and the replacement ears. I added blocks. Later, it seems I read somewhere that you're better off without the blocks on a TT, but I can't remember why.

Any comments? Also, would a replacement ear be an alternative repair for Dave instead of pulling the engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Peterson on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 04:15 pm:

Its pretty thin metal no need to V it out, if your taking it out. put on a different pan, if u leave it in weld it where it is, or use a aftermarket ear. but the ups and downs on the ear make it tough to do a good welding job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bill siebert on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 08:10 pm:

Dave, Go to the thread about Nellie. Check out what is holding the engine there. John Danuser says he has some. I am in need of one also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 08:20 pm:

They used to sell a belly band to save pulling the engine and making a repair when that break happened.

Tinkerin' Ted Aschman offered a different repair sugestion in his book. He advocated leaving out the wood block and cross bolt and then putting a longer bolt on top with a spring from the bottom wish bone connection on each side.

That suggestion has worked for me for over 20 years, but then mine might not have broken anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 01:29 am:

Hey guys, I appreciated all the suggestions about welding but I try to seldom weld anything but replace. Also thanks for the tips on where to get belly bands, but I already have one. I have had it for a long time. also I don't need any of the replacement arms, I sell them and still have one or two in my shop. I pulled the motor today. I have not made up my mind if I am going to replace the arm or just make a few local phone calls and get a different pan. There are guys around here that have more model T Parts than some of the smaller Napa stores have modern parts. One of the guys here has so many cars and parts that he has leased some huge old army ammunition bunkers. Another guy bought a cattle ranch that has a large low spot that can not be seen from any road and stores his cars and parts there. There are also other large stashes of parts around close.
Anyway, again I apprecated all the suggestions, THANKS

A91

David Stroud: I don't think you and others can understand the amount of parts that you can collect in this area. I really enjoy going out and collecting T Parts but they get to be a burdon. I wish you would come buy some of my parts, particularly blocks. No matter how hard I try to sell them they just sit. Another surplus is good fenders and good frames. After I am gone they will probably go to the scrappers. I now have 58 blocks and two more motors to pick up. That will make 60 blocks. The 26 blocks sell well, one guy took 5 blocks back to Ohio. Another guy took four 1926 blocks but the rest just sit and increase in number. The 12,13,14 and 15 blocks also sell good. I gave one guy 10 blocks, who is now deceased and I will bet every block plus the huge collection of parts that he had all went to the scrappers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 02:04 am:

i never throw anything out if i can avoid it(i am the kind of person who would weld it in place) In fact somebody who can weld alot better than me just welded up the broken ear on mine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin, Branch/Lafayette, LA on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 04:57 am:

Dave how much are you charging for blocks????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable Kiama Australia on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 06:07 am:

Taking the engine out and welding it properly is always the best answer. I also do what Alan Bennett does and add a rod reinforsement inside the bracket.

Just as a side, brazing is a lot stronger than welding thats why Henry used it. It would be a lot easier and safer to train workers to braze with better results especially for the front radius rod ball bracket. At the college I worked at one of the exercises the students did was to oxy weld, electric ,mig weld and braze two pieces of body steel together. They were then put into a hydraulic body machine and stretched till they broke. The braze always held and the steel tore away independant from the braze. The other methods failed at the weld edges. It was a good lesson as it easily showed how a poor weld easily failed and how brazing which was so easy to master worked better anyway.

Brazing works well if you have damaged panels that need to be pulled out back to their original position. You can braze a fixture on, pull it back and then melt the brass and remove the fixture and clean up the brass.

All methods have their place, brazing a good one for the places it was used on a Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 09:28 pm:

I fixed the arm the easy way. I made one phone call and located a four dip pan at a very resonable price.I went up today to pick it up and spent a couple of hours going though the owners huge stash of T parts. I located some parts that I thought I would like to have. He donated a big box of parts to me including some NH Carburetors, Horn parts, an early cam cover, 3 nice brass hub caps. He gave me some other stuff also but I can't remember what. We spent considerable time looking for trnsmission drums but didn't locate them. He is going to give me a call when he finds them. He had two nice looking complete 26 transmissions that I might pick up one of these days. The transmissions were nice and shiny with no rust.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 11:52 pm:

I wish I were closer. I would love to come by and buy a bunch of cheap junk-I mean stuff.
Drive safe, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 01:40 am:

Wayne:

Did you ever look for all the Model T stuff up by the Nevada City Air Port that I told you about. It was just below the landing strip. Do They still use the airport? There were bodies, fenders and other stuff there right across from an old barn in the black berry bushes. The road ended a few feet past the barn at an old shack.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Vagasky on Monday, December 13, 2010 - 10:39 am:

Here is a repair doubler I make for cracked arms. Sure beats changing the arm or pan.
imagename


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration