EMP and Model Ts

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: EMP and Model Ts
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glenn Edwards on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 07:19 pm:

Hello,

Ok,it is cold and going to get colder here in Middle Tennessee and we are possibly going to have an ice storm tomorrow and I probably have too much time on my hands. But here goes; with the wealth of knowledge on this forum, there is probably someone who helped design protective systems for electronics. So on to my question. Is the ignition system on a Model T immune to EMP? I know that a lot of military airplanes are shielded against the effects of a electromagnetic pulse but are the coils and magneto on a T robust enough to withstand it. How about a regular distributor on pre electronic ignition vehicles. I was just wondering if our Ts could become very popular again or if we would go back to horses if something really bad happened.

Glenn Edwards
Lebanon, TN


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Rademacher, Parkerfield Ks 26 on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 07:51 pm:

Most likly you would not be able to get gas anyway. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 07:52 pm:

The coils might suffer a bit and the magnets on the flywheel might need recharging but if you had a steel coil box and sheilded the wires it might just still work afterwards


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Olsen on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 07:54 pm:

Any vehicle with points, or in the case of the T buzzers will be less damaged. The tiny junctions in modern regulators, and any chip for that matter get broken from induced currents. Diesel engines, well older ones at least would fair better, except all the fuel pumps would not work...
That said, a massive pulse could break the coils on both points and the buzzers due to a current surge. Basically, you'd have too many amps in the coil and it'd break over causing a short. The condensers too would suffer.
I found this stashed away: High Energy Elecrtomagnetic Pulse

b) Passive elements. The passive elements most susceptible to
damage from HEMP-induced currents are those with very low voltage or power
ratings and precision components for which a small change is significant.
Resistor failures due to high-level pulsed currents are caused by energy-
induced thermal overstress and voltage breakdown. Resistor failure threshold
can be calculated from the resistor's parameters and the empirical relation
given in reference 2-9. Exposure of capacitors to transient currents sets up
a voltage across the capacitor that increases with time. For nonelectrolytic
capacitors, this voltage keeps rising until the capacitor's dielectric
breakdown level is reached. That point is typically 10 times the d.c. voltage
rating. For electrolytic capacitors, the voltage relationship holds until the
zener level of the dielectric is reached. After that, damage can occur. The
damage threshold for electrolytic capacitors in the positive direction is 3 to
10 times their d.c. voltage rating. For the negative direction it is one-half
their positive failure voltage (ref 2-10). Transformer and coil damage due to
HEMP-induced currents results from electric breakdown of the insulation. The
pulse-breakdown voltage is typically 5500 volts for power supply transformers
and 2750 volts for small signal transformers (ref 2-11).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indy on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 07:56 pm:

Any manual fuel system diesel engine would be completely unaffected. We're gonna have a lot of other problems to worry about besides what we're going to drive though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 08:02 pm:

The Model T ignition system functions on EMI. EMP should be no problem. The accompanying shock wave and air blast might move your touring car around a little bit. Frankly, I would be more worried about my crankshaft breaking than EMP and the like.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 10:23 pm:

I don't think a T would be affected. I'll worry about it if it happens! We worried a lot about Y2K a few years ago, and wasted a lot of sweat and lost a lot of sleep, but no big problem. It did sell a lot of new computers though.

I'll worry about if it happens. I know there are a few neighbors with windmills so will be able to get water. Need to stock some canned and dry food though. The freezer will thaw and we will have to eat a lot of food very fast before it spoils.

I'll worry about it if it happens.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White, Sheridan, MI on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 10:34 pm:

It would likely wipe out your credit/debit card magnetic strip so you couldn't buy fuel anyway. Be prepared. Get a horse. Make friends with your local Amish families.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Stitt on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 10:42 pm:

If EMP as a weapon should occur it will be the least of your worries. I remember when the first MIG that defected to the US was analyzed. We laughed at the vacuum tubes. I asked the old man why. He was a rocket guy. He answered EMP. Now that was a long time ago...
I took him at his word as he was involved in the early moon shots. He either did or was part of the team that invented exploding bolts that decoupled stages of rockets. I could be wrong as again, that was a long time ago. I think being silicon free was a good thing with respect to EMP.
Could be wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Lang - Brentwood Bay BC on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 11:23 pm:

That's why every night, I take the coils out of my car, and place them in the Faraday Cage. The cage is located down in the shelter, next to the wood gasifier.

Hahaha.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 11:27 pm:

Speaking of Y2K:



Yep, the Stan Hoekstra of Houston T fame created this and posted it on this Forum.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin, Branch/Lafayette, LA on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 11:56 pm:

Now that was funny Chris and Ricks! LOL!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, December 15, 2010 - 12:12 am:

Severity of damage would be affected by whether or not it (almost anything) was running at the time of the EMP blast. The effect falls off quickly after the blast. Many circuits will either survive or not. However many circuits will also fail later as such things as transistors, diodes and electrolytic capacitors will burn microscopic tracks internally which will result in (electrical) leakage which develops into failure over a relatively short period of time. About thirty years ago, our TV got hit by a high voltage spike. It worked fine for about two weeks, then the picture began to shrink. It slowly got smaller until I finally gave in, tore the TV apart and with the aid of a schematic, traced all the circuits to find three failing electrolytic capacitors. (It was good for another 15 years after that.)
A model T would probably have a better chance to keep running after the pulse than most vehicles built since. It would have a much better chance of running after the pulse than any car built after about 1990. Whether or not it would run during the pulse would depend on the severity and proximity of the pulse and its source. The power drops exponentially by mileage so you don't have to be really far from it to be relatively safe.
I have always wondered, how much of a pulse would it take to cause momentary unconsciousness, and how much to be fatal? Remember, the entire nervous system runs in part on electricity.
Drive safely, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denny Seth - Ohio on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 09:22 am:

The Model T would probably survive but you wouldn't be able to get fuel with your electronic card from the electronic fuel pump.

It wouldn't matter anyway because my electronic pacemaker wouldn't work long enough for me to pump gas in the T and the electronic ambulance wouldn't be able to get me into the hospital with their electronic doors so they could hook me up to the electronic monitors! Thank God I have my tinfoil hat!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 05:04 pm:

Reckon how many T's are in N Korea?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff V on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 05:27 pm:

In North Korea, they have Pyeonghwa Motors. They build the greatest cars on the planet, far superior to anything built anywhere else. Just ask any North Korean while the local information officer looks on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thunder on the Plains of Colorado on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 07:33 pm:

Please Glenn, take this as no insult or in any way being insulting.

I for one, find it amazing, that a Gentleman, who shares the same name as the pilot, whom Edwards Air Force Base is named after, understands and questions, EMP.

Coincedental, I'm sure. Yet the replies have been entertaning.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 10:14 pm:

Being as how the most likely source of EMP is the detonation of a high grade thermonuclear devise,I'd hardly think worrying about you car would be a high priority?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 10:16 pm:

Being as how the most likely source of EMP is the detonation of a high grade thermonuclear devise,I'd hardly think worrying about your car would be a high priority?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glenn Edwards on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 12:18 am:

If the indented desire of an attack was to destroy electronic devices, the detonation of a high yield thermonuclear devise would likely be at a very high altitude. The Starfish Prime test in space in the early 60s showed the potential for damage to electrical circuits by frying streetlights in Hawaii and destroying a lot of satellites in orbit at the time. We would have a lot of damage to modern electrical circuits if a series of space detonations happened above the Northern Hemisphere. No blast damage at the surface, just a lot of damaged electrical devices and a new way of life.

I do have way too much time on my hands I guess. It will be nice when warm weather gets here again.

Glenn


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 12:45 am:

i heard they have a chemical means of making the EMP nowdays


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 01:41 am:

Sounds like something they'd discuss on Coast to Coast AM. (Of which I'm a religious listener)

Things like this do make you wonder. Aside from the computer I'm typing on and my cell phone and digital cameras, I don't have any high tech modern devices.

No TV, No microwave, I use an old stovetop coffee pot, and people call me old fashioned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lewis R. Rash - South Hill, Virginia on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 08:20 am:

Guess my hit & miss engine will work........????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 08:43 am:

I did some sailing in the Caribbean. There is lots of lightening in the Caribbean. You can see the storms on the radar and try to avoid them, but sometimes they chase you down. I never got hit, but a friend on another boat got hit, three times. Each time he had to replace all the electronics. The Diesel engine was operational as well as things like electric winches. The aluminum masts on sailboats are grounded to the seawater so they act like a lightening rod to deflect most of the energy, but there is still a huge EMP pulse

One way to test whether a T model would suffer from EMP would be to park your car on a hill top during an electrical storm. It doesn't have to take a direct hit, just something close.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison-Montana 500 Vice President on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 12:45 pm:

I would be worried about operation of the True-Fire and E-timer after an EMP Attack.


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