Next project on my '26 coupe. re-spoke front wheel. Help

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: Next project on my '26 coupe. re-spoke front wheel. Help
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Wednesday, December 15, 2010 - 04:24 pm:

Okay. While doing a walk around before taking my T out for a drive, I noticed a fine brown dust on the rim surrounding several of the spokes of the right front wheel and one of the spokes was missing a big chunk! This had to have occurred during my last drive and i'm luck it didn't collapse, for, when I applied lateral pressure in and out, the whole rim moved about 1/16" in both directions, independent of the spokes (dangerously loose!), so, before I drive it anymore, I'm going to need to re-spoke that front wheel.

I checked Snyder's catalog and they have two sizes of hickory spokes 21" x 3 1/2" and 21" x 3 5/8". I assume one size is for the front wheel and one is for the back. Which size do I need to do my front wheel? If it is unknown, what do I need to measure to determine this for myself? i'm not sure what the 3 1/2" and the 3 5/8" signifies.

Also, can anyone post the thread that has Fun Projects jig for installing spokes? I believe there is a video too, but for some reason I can't find it. Many thanks. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Faccin - Crystal Falls, Michigan on Wednesday, December 15, 2010 - 04:34 pm:

Jim,

here is Fun Projects contact info, I hope this helps


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Contact Info

Fun Projects, Inc.
PMB 164
761 N. 17th St., Unit 11
St. Charles, IL 60174
(630) 584-1471

Products and Services
John F. Regan, President
piewagon@funprojects.com

Website Creation
John C. Regan
webmaster@funprojects.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Lang - Brentwood Bay BC on Wednesday, December 15, 2010 - 04:45 pm:

Here's the press:

http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/WheelpressA2.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz Knoxville,TN on Wednesday, December 15, 2010 - 04:54 pm:

Jim, the 1/2 and 5/8 is for the nipple that sticks through the felloe,take a tire off and measure the wood piece that sticks through the hole in the felloe.
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ward Sherwood on Wednesday, December 15, 2010 - 05:22 pm:

Jim, here are the videos.

http://www.cimorelli.com/wheelrebuilding.html

.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Broderius on Wednesday, December 15, 2010 - 05:26 pm:

http://www.model-t-ford.org/projects/respoking/index.html


http://www.cimorelli.com/wheelrebuilding.html


These should give you an idea..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Saltsgaver on Wednesday, December 15, 2010 - 08:45 pm:

That is an excellent video. A question I do have is regarding concentricity. The film seems to take for granted that the new spokes are identical and will put the hub into the center of the fellow.

I have 2 wheels with loose spokes that need to be redone. The other 2 wheels don't seem too bad. Should a guy bite the bullet & do all 4 at the same time, or wait until they go bad? I don't drive the car a great deal, but do want to think I can get in & go anywhere at any time.
thanks,
Mike Sa


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 12:50 am:

I do not see why you should spoke all four if only two are in question.

Currently I am working on all four, as I do not like they are made of red oak and they are all loose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 12:54 am:

If the spokes are made per factory drawing the hub will not only be exactly in the center of the felloe, it will be very very tight too. Once pressed together the whole wheel will be very tight and assuming the spokes were true and correctly made and the felloe flat, the wheel will be nice and round and run true.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 04:52 am:

Jim, the front wheels and the back wheels use the same spokes. When you get the wheels apart, make sure the felloes are straight before you reassemble the wheels. Lay them on a flat surface. If they don't lay flat, they can be straightened. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By scott conger on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 07:56 am:

First Variant is as follows:
1/2" and 5/8" tennon (nipple as above)

this is determined by removing demountable rim and measuring the diameter of the holes throught the felloe.

Second Variant:
Ford or Kelsey/Hayes length. Kelsey/Hayes spokes are 1/32" longer than the Ford due to their felloe ID being about 1/16" larger diameter. Yes, it does make a difference. Using Ford spokes in a Kelsey or Hayes rim will result in the hub being loose enough to slide out. Using the correct spokes will make for a tremendously tight wheel. I do not recall what the ID's of each are, but if no one else replies, I will post this info tomorrow.

As for spoke length, I've found that from my supplier, the length varies by only thousandth's of an inch...a remarkable feat for wood working.

I've rebuilt a good number of wheels and the above info is from experience, not conjecture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 08:41 am:

Since the fellow on the video mentioned "Donny Lang's" spokes, I ordered twelve hickory 21" x 3-1/2" (1/2" tenon) spokes last night from Lang's. I will be making a Funprojects jig this week so when the spokes arrive they will be ready to install in the wheel. I'd like to have the car ready by Christmas to give a ride to my wife's 90 year old Grandma.

I will be priming the spokes (especially the tenon and end grains) with a thinned (so it will be readily absorbed into the wood) solution of Sherwin Williams A-100 oil based exterior house paint, then will be painting them with Porter's high gloss black enamel. I primed my Victorian house with A-100 and coated with Sherwin Williams 25 year "Super Paint"back in 1990 and I haven't needed to repaint the house yet (see photo). The other wheels are nice and tight, but I will keep a close watch on them and at the first sign of weakness will be doing them as they require. I'm looking forward to this project. Thank you everyone. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 01:13 pm:

Jim,

I've only respoked one wheel, but I found it to be a fun and rewarding experience. I expect you will too. I looked to see where Bartow is, thinking I might could loan you my press, but it would exceed the cost of materials to drive that far. Pretty place you have there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 01:25 pm:

Thank you for the thought Hal. I'm a fairly decent woodworker, with all the power tools necessary, as I got alot of experience when I designed, drew the plans and built my house. Thanks again. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dolo F, South Texas on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 05:39 pm:

If money alone had bought that house, I would be jealous, but since it is the work of your hands and mind I can praise it for it's merit. Beautiful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Saltsgaver on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 08:36 pm:

In Scott's note above, he mentions Hays wheels and Ford wheels being slightly different. How do you know which is which?
Mike Sa


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 09:32 pm:

Thank you Dolo.

I got started on making the "Funprojects" spoke press today. Got the (4) 23 3/4" x 23 3/4" x 3/4" base squares cut and cut the (8) 1 1/2" x 2" x 9 3/4" pieces with 22 1/2 degree ends and mounted them onto the base and clamped them in place. I'll finish it tomorrow and it will be ready to go to work as soon as my spokes arrive from Lang's. I'm very much looking forward to this project. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 10:12 pm:

Nice design on the house, Jim. By the narrow windows, etc., I had it pegged as T era. How long did it take you? Does the T look at home in the garage?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sosnoski on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 10:22 pm:

As far as I know there is only one size of spokes for the 21" wheel. There are however two different tenon sizes - 1/2" and 5/8".

There are two different sizes of the 30 x 3 1/2" steel felloe. The inside diameter of the Ford felloes are 20 3/4" while the Hayes felloes are 20 13/16". The Ford felloe used either the 1/2" or 5/8" tenon while the Hayes used the 1/2" tenon.

This results in 5 different spokes being made:
2800HS - 30 x 3-1/2 Ford with a 1/2" tenon
2800HS-5/8 - 30 x 3-1/2 Ford with a 5/8" tenon
2800HS-HY - 30 x 3-1/2 Hayse with a 1/2" tenon
2800B - 21" Ford with a 1/2" tenon
2800B-5/8 - 21" Ford with a 5/8" tenon

It is important to look at each of the wheels you are respoking as there is no guarantee that all of them are going to be the same. There can be a mixture of Ford and Hayes and 1/2" and 5/8" tenons.

There is one other spoke which I have seen which has a bevel cut along the tapers at the hub. In other words, the joint where the spokes meet around the center of the wheel does not go straight through the wheel, but goes through at an angle resulting in one face being smaller than the other. They are assembled alternating the small side up or down as you go around the wheel. As far as I can tell, these seem to be Canadian wheels (but I'm not positive on that).

When using the fixture to assemble the wheels, the setup is extremely important. Position the spokes in the teepee position and snug down the top piece so it holds them in place. Then go around and make sure that they are all perfectly lined up and the tenons are started in the holes. Lower the piece holding the spokes slightly and tighten the top piece some more and check the position of the spokes again. Repeat this several times and be very anal about getting them positioned perfectly. They all have to be straight and evenly spaced before you start to press the wheel together. Once you start pressing it together you will not be able to make any adjustments and once the wheel is assembled you are not going to be able to tweek the position of the spokes.

One other thing to consider is in finishing the spokes before assembling them. You do not want to build up any thickness of finish on the tapers of the spokes. Any added thickness here is going to be multiplied by 24. If you add 0.010 thickness of paint to each spoke, you just added 0.250 to the diameter of the center part of the wheel and you will probably not be able to press the wheel together without doing some damage to something.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 10:35 pm:

That video is worth 2 million words.

What I found most interesting; I ordered 2 spokes. The first spoke was for a 30x 3.5 wheel. I do not have that size wheels (opps). When I received it I noticed part of the wood was chipped. I did not think much about it as I was going to use it as a sample.

Well after seeing the video I determined someone had tried pressing in this spoke and it was not in the proper alignment and it got damaged. Then they returned it, guess who and it was sent out to, Me! The end of the tennon was also marked up. Both items matched the damage on the video exactly.

Great looking house! The garage for the house I grew up in was built during the model T heyday, my parents bought the house from the original owner/builder. He built most of the houses in the area. The garage was two stalls. In the floor were wood planks in over sand pits in the concrete floor. This was to catch for all the dripping oil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 10:58 pm:

Thank you, Ralph. It's a long story, but I'll summmarize it for you.

In 1985, I bought and moved into a small Victorian house sitting on two lots in a beautiful tree shaded neighborhood and began renovating it. In March, 1987 I had a fire which gutted the place and sent me to the hospital with burns to both arms where I stayed for two weeks. During my recovery and while my burns healed, unable to do much else, I began drawing my dream house, building it on on paper from the foundation to the floor joists to the ceiling joists and all the walls in between, up to the roof rafters and the eight gables, the electrical and plumbing, so by the time I was able to work on it, I had a set of detailed plans to go by that would have made Frank Lloyd Wright jealous.

In August of 1987, the insurance company settled for $114,000.00 which gave me the funds I needed to do it right. While building the house, I lived in an apartment until 1989, when the house behind me came up for sale, which I bought for $28,000.00 cash, so all I needed to do was walk across the yard to work on the house at my leisure, working weekends, after work and vacations, I moved into it in 2005 with my new wife and she has done wonders with it.

Until she came along, it was basically a big workshop where I worked on other projects between spurts of building, but with her enthusiasm I was prompted to work on it, in earnest, to make it a home for us. The best part of building a house with your own two hands is that when you're done, it's all paid for.

Yes. The Model T looks right at home in the driveway. I need to take some pictures of it in front of the house. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By scott conger on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 07:19 am:

Dave

I just rebuilt two Kelsey wheels (loose lug demountable) from two different cars. Both had the tapered (I call them keystone) shaped spokes. The last time I'm certain that I could identify them was when I rebuilt a couple of wheels for my dad...his were both Kelsey wheels and both had the keystone shaped spokes.

scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By scott conger on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 07:23 am:

Dave

I've found the tapered spokes on a number of wheels. All were Kelsey loose lug demountables. I just did two Kelsey's from two different cars last week, and both had the tapered spokes also.

scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By scott conger on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 01:12 pm:

dang.
Neither post showed up, now both. Sorry for double posts, folks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 01:39 pm:

Somewhere I have Archives footage of building Model T wheels at Highland Park. When I get home I'll try and find it. It's pretty interesting to watch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 02:14 pm:

Luke, is this the one you have? The 43 sec. wheel assembly portion is located from 1:15 to 1:58 in the counter of the video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4KrIMZpwCY. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 02:37 pm:

Yep that's it! The footage I have is cut up in raw segments. That video is a nice production.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mitchell , Chehalis washington on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 11:40 am:

I have followed many threads on wheel spokes, but have never seen any discussion on my type of wheels. They are the type with a dimple instead of a hole for the tenon. can anyone tell me about them?


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