Seat belts

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: Seat belts
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Utphall on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 10:31 am:

Has anyone found a good way to anchor front seat belts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tyrone thomas on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 10:42 am:

Outside ends of belt to the frame and the inside ends to a made cross member.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 10:59 am:

Depends completely on the year, model style.

The Improved Car is rather easy, a heavy weight crossmember on the subframe under the front seat is ideal. Bolts go directly to the frame/body mount brackets.....the wood framed body earlier T are a much different question....


'27 touring front seat install



Did the seat belts for the reason of taking the grandkids for rides, nice to keep them in the seat, since both your hands are on wheel and levers :-)



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 12:21 pm:

Past discussions on seat belts tend to indicate that mixing the newer technology of seat belts with the old-tech of Model T's may not be wise. In other words, seat belts are not really a stand-alone technology that can be plugged into any given car where such protection was never anticipated. A car that uses seat belts is specifically engineered for seat belt use as a means to protect its occupants.

That being said, it becomes a matter of personal preference. But, just understand that the melding of technologies may present its own risks.

I would say that a good anchor point might be a substantial section of the body and NOT the frame. If the body should be ripped from the frame you can see what might happen to the seat belt user. Again, old and new tech not necessarily merging well.

Please be careful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 12:39 pm:

I agree with Jerry.
The belt should go with the body if the body is ripped off the frame. Remember there are only 6 bolts holding a rusty thin sheetmetal and old wood body to a strong steel frame. If the body if ripped off, only the belt and passenger will be holding it on the frame!

Back in the day when we were adding seat belts to the cars from the 40's and 50's, which were made before unibody construction, we used large washers and drilled through the sheetmetal body to anchor the belts.

Likely the best place to anchor belts on a T would be to the seat riser behind the seat for those cars with a metal seat riser. This would keep a child from standing up or getting out of the seat, but not much protection in a major collision.

It's interesting that I survived childhood. I used to stand on the front seat between my parents with my hands around their shoulders! I also sat on my dad's lap and steered while he was driving. Or I sat in the back seat and went on the floor when he hit the brake hard. I got no scars or broken teeth! My cousin was less fortunate though, he rode in a car with suicide doors in the back seat and grabbed the door handle which threw him out onto the road. Fortunately they were going slowly, and he has carried a scar on his forehead since he was a boy. He is now 72 years old.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Dugger on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 12:43 pm:

I would think that it is not wise to have attached ti the frame.


Case in point should the body be torn from the frame you could be cut in half by the seat belt, now if it attaached to the part of the cab or seat back you could or would stay with that part of body. Just my thouhgts. At the seat back and the body come together,upholstery(sp) it would be braced there and hooked up. Again my thoughts!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 01:27 pm:

What about roll-overs in an open car? Even if the body stayed attached to the frame, are you better off being belted into a rolling or upside down car with no roll bar? To each his own, but I think I'll take my chances on being ejected. Closed car? I can see both sides of the arguement, but definitely think if you have them, attach to the body and not the frame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz Knoxville,TN on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 02:12 pm:

If you get hit hard enough to rip the body off you will probably be dead anyway.I have them in my 26 coupe attached to the steel member under the seat mainly to keep from bouncing around.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward, Mountain. Ont on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 02:26 pm:

Clip the two ends securely together, and through it in the garbage,
these vehicles are NOT designed to be attached to them dureing an impact,
even in modern cars the are a low impact device,
and look how solid they mount them, twisting or tearing of the body and frame cold result easily in a fail to release scnerio, and you will likely be turnin half, or burn in the vehicle


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 02:40 pm:

If you are going to do it. Secure them to the body. I would use very large fender washers or even make your own to spread the force out over a larger area. This will help from tearing the metal when yanked on. If not they will pull right out.

I spent a good 6-9 months trying to decide to add them or not. In the end I did not. I have an open car (26 roadster) I decided if I ever get in an accident and I rolled the car, I think I would have less injures from being ejected than if the car landed on top of me.

My soon to be 7 yr old son knows that he is not allowed to move around.

Just my 2 cents


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Brown on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 03:02 pm:

Think about this:
On all compact size tractors, both a roll bar and seat bests are mandated by law. Both are recommended to be used together and never separately. Also, on modern cars both the air bag and seatbelt are mandated by law and are recommended to be used together, ALWAYS. One without the other can be inefective not to mention dangerous.
The other day, i was going down a steep hill in my back yard pulling a 4x8 trailer with my Kubota 4x4 compact tractor loaded with dead tree limbs( a light load). I knew that i always needed to put it in 4 wheel drive on this particular section of steep grassy terain especially if the grass was wet, but it waws afternoon and the grass was dry, I thought. I did not do that, and i had underestimated that the grass was plenty dry enough that the tractor would not slide and 4 wheel drive was not needed (WRONG). It broke loose near the bottom of the hill and i have never gone down the hill that fast before. It just kept getting faster and i couldn't get it in 4 wheel dr and the brakes were useless too. I also didn't have the seatbelt fastened either. I tried to keep it going straight in the sliding fun game to no avail. Finially, it jacknifed turning sideways on the steepest part of the hill catching the rear tire in the trailer tongue (bendind the crap out of the tongue) then suddenly stopped. I was already half way off the tractor trying to hang on, realizing i could have just been killed if the thing had gone all the way over. Now, this tractor has a roll bar but i think that the way things were looking, i would have been thrown off if it had rolled and trapped me between the bar and the ground. With the seatbelt buckled, i would have been held within the safety zone and been protected. Don't worry. i have finally learned my lesson and i do know that someone above was riding with me that day.
The moral of this story is that i don't think that i want to ride thru an overoll in a Model T, either and open car or a closed car. I believe i will take my chances on being throw out just like the old days.
If i ever roll by 25 sedan, I'll let you know how i like it.
Take care
Roger


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue WA on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 03:38 pm:

It all depends on what kind of accident you expect is most likely. If you expect the car will stay upright, seat belts fastened to the body will most likely help you. If you expect to roll over, they might help if you have a closed car but could worsen your odds of survival in an open car. I won't have them in my speedster or touring car but am considering adding them to my 26 coupe.

A close friend had an accident in a speedster. The car rolled and both were thrown out. The driver survived with light to moderate injuries, the passenger was killed (the car rolled over her). From the looks of the car, they would both have died if they had been buckled in.

Regardless of body style, if you have small children, seat belts let you fasten the car seat in to keep the local law enforcement folks happy. They would likely add to the safety of the little ones. I wouldn't have belts in an open car for any other reason but that's just me.

In any case, drive safe and hope those around you do too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 03:46 pm:

we have discussed this alot in the past.If seat belts are wanted,mounted to the body as in a modern car would make more sense.For example.My old 77 chevy wagon has seat belts,both the shoulder harness and buckle in the seat are bolted to reinforced sections of the body,not the heavy frame under the car.
The 67 buick I rode in a kid had the useless lap belts,bolted to reinforced parts of the body,not the chassis.
This tends to lead me to think that engineers with college degrees feel it is better.

What would be intresting is if we could find a currently employed automotive design engineer or perhaps someone in the feild of safty testing to take a unbiased look at the T's various designs and give thier opionions on where they could be mounted.
I will say this though,both my T's have a airbag,everytime I sit in it!:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dolo F, South Texas on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 04:45 pm:

I'm glad to see this subject addressed, my kids are grown and up until recently we have not had little ones to factor into our old car safety. I agree the assertion that it may not be a good idea to mix old and new technology. My mom had a wreck before seat belt laws were enforced, and the steering wheels at that time were not collapsable. Had she not been thrown sideways, the steering column would have impaled her. My personal solution, until someone can advise otherwise, will be to limit trips with that precious cargo to a little puttering around down my road to the gate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 05:01 pm:

It all comes down to what risks you are willing to take. A model T with no seat belt is still safer than a motorcycle. Surely there are more motorcycles on the road than Model T's. To my knowledge, none (Motorcycles) have seat belts, nor would I want to ride one that did. If you are willing to ride a motorcycle, driving a T should be within your range of acceptable risk.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 06:36 pm:

I think anymore that freedom is part of the old car! when we are in our T's and the one model A we do as we wish instead of being told what to do!! I also think a motorcycle is much safer than a model T because of handling plus stoping!Bud. PS I also do not like the idea of some expert saying we need this or that! If you want them use them but leave others alone to make their choice!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Utphall on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 06:40 pm:

really good info, gentlemen- many thanks. I'm leaning toward not installing them at this point- it's a 25 touring, by the way- I'll try to post a picture. I was mostly hoping to get my bride to ride in the car with me but that may be a losing battle anyway.

Merry Christmas to all you T-buddies!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White, Sheridan, MI on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 07:20 pm:

In the days before seat belts were required my mother was envolved in three accidents. The first was when our car hit another that had stopped in the middle of the road due to a white-out. My mother went face first into the windshield and required several hours getting stiched up. I was in the back seat and lost my two front teeth when I hit the back of the front seat. In the second another car crossed the center line and hit her car. Her knees were badly bruised when they hit the dash under the steering wheel and gave her problems for the rest of her life. In the last accident she again hit the windshield and spent several days in the hospital with injuries to her face and a broken sholder. ALL of these accidents occured at SLOW speed, under 25 mph, and simple lap belts would have prevented the injuries. If the accident is bad enough nothing will save you from death or injury but most accidents occur at lower speeds and any protection is better than none. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach, Ca on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 08:06 pm:

This subject always interests me to hear the different view points and beliefs.
Seems to me it would be very helpful to us all if we could find out more about Model T's in accidents.

1. What type of accidents are most frequent?
2. What speed is involved?
3. Point of impact?
4. Type of injuries if any?
5. Where did accident occur?
6. Was seat belt used?
7. Body type of T?
8. Cause of accident?

I don't know for sure about modern vehicle accidents but I have been told most accidents happen within a couple of miles from your home and involve frontal impact on the left front corner.
Most of the close calls I have experienced have been driving on the city streets at slow speeds (under 35mph).
I usually wear my seat belts for longer trips in my Torpedo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 08:23 pm:

I hadn't given this subject a whole lot of thought before today, so I grabbed a flashlight and went into the garage to visualize the possibilities with regard to what Jerry VanOoteghem had to say about the melding of old and new technologies.

Now, I've been driving long enough to have been in a few accidents and by far, the greatest number of times I've been hit while driving has been from behind. So, now I'm standing in the garage, at the back end of my 1915 tourer and it's plain to see that the rearmost part of the car is the backrest of the rear seat. The only thing between the rear seat and a following car would be a kerosene lantern. That's bad enough in itself, but you could also see that if a rear passenger were to take a moderate hit from behind while wearing a seatbelt, he/she would stand a fair chance of being crushed between the other car and the seatbelt.

Now, I'm only familiar with the open cars, but I'd venture a guess that even the closed cars don't have a beefy enough hardpoint from which to hang a shoulder harness. Without the shoulder harness, a lap belt would provide only as much protection as can be gained by keeping the occupant from being launched from the car--and that beings us to the age-old question of whether its ever a good thing to be thrown clear.

I wonder if companies like Hagerty, Grundy and JC Taylor might have statistics on this kind of thing.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Fuller on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 08:27 pm:

Anyone ever put an infant car seat in a T? I'm looking forward to taking our 5 week old son for his first T ride next summer and I am trying to figure out how to secure his seat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 11:22 pm:

In 1966 I was driving a 1953 Willys pickup west of Yuma when I fell asleep and drove into a tree at about 50 mph. In those days shoulder belts were in the future. I was banged up, but I survived because of the aftermarket lap belt. Six years later I was driving a Jeep wagon in western Colorado when a front tire blew out and the vehicle rolled. This time I had both lap and shoulder belts, and came through without a scratch. I always wear a belt. Yes, I realize that in some instances, seat belts are a detriment rather than a help. But the odds that they're a help most times are overwhelming. It is routine to hear that a driver "died when he was thrown from the vehicle" in a crash. Granted, a rollover in an open car may be an exception to the rule. But that brings up the question of what percentage of car crashes involve rollovers. I would guess that most do not. I think that in most cases thrown clear translates to splattered on the concrete like a bug on a windshield.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 01:11 am:

Ed, it depends on what T? I have a Tudor and it would be no problem to set a closed car up with a car seat.
I've taken my 3 year old grandson and his daddy for a couple short rides. So far, I've just cut him loose with the whole back seat. He can't roll the rear windows down, they're too stiff. I could put in the necessary eye bolts and fabricate clip-in seat belts to hold a car seat, without much trouble.
I don't know about the open cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 10:20 am:

Gene,I think that sort of info in the wrong hands could get our cars put off the road!!?? Always rember there are few of US and Untold Millons of tailgating,cell phone talkers,texters,breakfast,lunch,supper eaters,map readers,lovers and in genneral people with their head in their Butt who DO NOT Like to see US as we could possably slow them down!!!!! Not ment to be a rant or personal,it's just what i think?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 11:46 am:

Move West, Bud. I find the farther east I go, the less courteous the drivers. Besides, most of where Gene and I drive are slow residential streets or multi-lane boulevards and hiways.

After an accident, there can be two arguments:
1. He didn't install seatbelts, although they were widely available.
2. He installed seatbelts, showing his effort to make the car safer.

Regardless, an accident that got so much publicity as to raise the ire of the electorate is pretty hard to imagine. It's not like the civilian-owned fighter jet that crashed into an ice cream parlor just off the end of the runway.

It's mostly not what your car hits that counts, but what you hit inside (or outside) the car. The T has a short wheelbase and high C of G, so a hit down low will catapult the people. A seatbelt attached to the seat will keep the passenger out of the windshield, and off the street in a sharp turn.

My passengers are always belted in, as I nearly lost a young guy over the folded windshield when I demonstrated the front brakes at about 10 mph.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 12:11 pm:

Ralph,

How are the drivers West of you?:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 12:33 pm:

There was a semi-famous question on the quiz shows back in the day: "Which is farther west, Los Angeles, Calif, or Reno, Nevada?"

Reno is farther west, so that puts all of northern Calif, and most of Oregon and Washington west of Socalif. Western drivers are cool, but Seattle has some aggressive young women drivers.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach, Ca on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 02:47 pm:

Kenneth, Yes you are right about most other drivers and what they think of T's and their drivers. I hope that we continue to be such a minority that no laws are passed to restrict our driving the cars. One thing we can all do is to be aware of traffic behind us and give room for cars to pass when possible.

I'll repeat the story about a conversation between two people after they were involved in an accident. One driver says crying "Oh shoot look what just happened to my car" The other driver say "Oh man look what just happened to ME!" Guess which one was wearing a seat belt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Utphall on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 07:17 pm:

Now I'm rethinking it- I guess what I'm trying to avoid is being thrown into the windshield or the steering wheel post- so maybe for low speed accidents (where I run into someone else) a lap belt would be good.

Not to scare the !@#$% out of anyone but, the other thing first responders have told me is, that in the case of a rollover the vehicle ALWAYS lands on top of the person thrown from it- don't know why but the vehicle will find you.

The biggest thing on our side is slow speed. That said, I got banged up pretty good hitting a parked car at 15 mph w/my bicycle and no, I don't want to elaborate on how I accomplished that not once, but twice in my lifetime except to tell you that the first time it involved a view of a pretty girl in a very small swimsuit. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money, Braidwood, IL on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 07:29 pm:

George, I don't think a lap belt will keep you out of the steering wheel. Maybe not even the windshield. My philosophy is to each his own.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach, Ca on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 08:45 pm:

Hi my name is Chanler I'm 10 and I love my papa's T because it has seatbelts and because it makes me feel secure when we go on a ride.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 08:53 pm:

I don't think the vehicle ALWAYS lands on top of you! One time a hot rod, I think it was made from a Model A roadster rolled over and the body was completely upside down so the top of the doors were against the road. The police came and couldn't find the driver and passenger. About 1/2 hour later, they came walking up. They said, "we just went for a cup of coffee to calm down"

They must have either been thrown out or jumped out, because they didn't have any scratches or broken bones.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 08:58 pm:

HI Chanler!!,My oldest Grandson is 12 and shortly after he was born i gave him a 15 roadster and he has been driving it and our 14 plus Grandmaws 29 model A for some time! We live far out in the country and seldom see other cars.I understand how you feel about seatbelts and thats cool with me! Being old i was not raised with seat belts so maby that is why i dont like them in my old cars?? Have fun with your Papa's model T and thank you for the post!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable Kiama Australia on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 04:05 am:

As usual we over here in Australia are ahead of everyone else (even if it is only a day time wise) . In July a law came into force here that required every motor vehicle that a child under 7 years of age traveled in to be fitted with approved child safety seats or restraints.

As it said "every vehicle" that meant all us oldies as well. Normally laws passed exempt old vehicles from proposed changes. So we don't have to fit all the changes that have been put into place over the years, you can add stop and turn lights and seat belts if you want but you don't have to.

First up in other states they quickly nullified the law as it applies to antique vehicles but not in New South Wales where at the moment they are saying every car must have the seats and belts. Not only that they need to be fitted and approved by a qualified engineer who can charge you what he wants. Members have been quoted upwards of $700 dollars. Every car is going to require a different method of fixing and you can bet the expensive cars would get hit a lot more to have the fitting done. As you can not fit the devices yourself just imagine some of the results as ignorant workers hack through original bodies and upholstery

Naturally there has been a lot of resistance to having to do this. The state government has been approached by antique clubs and individuals but "is still looking into it"

At the big tour in Windsor in October the organizers put out warnings that the law was in place. As time didn't allow for a decision and all the reasons posted above were also aired here as to where to mount chassis or body I took the grand kids to the tour prepared to ware the fine if pulled up by the cops. Luckily nothing happened as I'm sure there were more important things for them to keep an eye on.

I have had my car on the road for 45 years. Both my kids traveled in it through out their childhood and now our grand kids love it too. Being a Town Car its a bit different, the kids can be locked in the back completely sealed up with the child proof door locks on if need be but I would not put in belts. Yes its possible that we may have an accident but thats something one has little control over. Its the same as saying you need to carry parts in case you break down but which ones. Sure enough if you put an axle under the seat you would break a drive shaft etc same with the belts if you had a low speed crash a belt may help but the accident may be so severe it would be of no use. That's even the case with a modern car.

At the moment everyone is waiting for the next election (March 2011) so the present inept government gets thrown out and then hopefully sanity will prevail.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 04:12 am:

The way to get around that law so you do not have to fit the seatbelts would be to wait until the child is older than 7 and then you do not have to fit seatbelts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 04:14 am:

Oh wait, i forgot. Is it possible to register the car outside of newsouthwales?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin, Branch/Lafayette, LA on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 05:29 am:

Nope no way. An accident between a modern car and T is a lose lose situation anyway. There are no crash zones built in that tin body and if the metal didn't get you a big splinter of wood would lol!
If it were an A that would be one thing but not a T. I'd wager not even a closed car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 09:34 am:

Again, to each his own, but there is more to think about than just getting thrown out. If you are strapped in, what are you going to hit inside? Is your head now going to hit something your torso would otherwise have hit? Probably no way to know this without extensive testing. I'm not donating mine for destructive testing.:-) But it is something to think about. I'm not going to let the possibility of an accident keep me from enjoying my vehicles. I'll just enjoy it as it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 12:46 pm:

None for me, I'd rather be thrown clear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 01:44 pm:

Was the car ok?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier, MS. on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 02:17 pm:

Even Santa!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob from Nova Scotia on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 02:27 pm:

George, the reason the vehicle always seems to land on a person as it rolls is that more times than not, the person is ejected slower than the vehicle rolls. So they end up being halfway out of said vehicle, when a couple of tons of steel finds its mark. Been a Paramedic for fourteen years, and that often seems to be the case. Not always, but more often than not


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