Don't try this at home

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: Don't try this at home
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ART DONLEY on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 10:26 am:

I found this forum about a month ago and everyone has been so helpful and full of valuable information. I finally , with your help have learned how to reduce pictures to place on here for all to see. This is a pict of what happens when you try to put a tire on a 21" split rim that I spot welded.Sure wish I had found this forum before I tried this. I was sitting on this rim to get leverage when she "blew". Lifted me off the ground about 6", and I won't even try to describe the bruse I now have on my butt.
My advise, don't try this at home?
Anyhow, my question. Is this rim ruined or can it be repaired? If yes, who would do this kind of repair? If no, does anyone have one they would consider selling, don't want new.
Thanks in advance for any help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 10:59 am:

At least you weren't straddling the rim or you'd be writing in a much higher voice.

It can probably be repaired with heat, a hammer and anvil and few bodyworking tools as well as patience and perseverence. I know, I'd give it a try if it were mine. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 11:03 am:

PS. If you are not equipped to do this, you may want to take it to a metal fabrication shop. A body shop, might be up for it as well since they make a living straightening out bent frames and bodies panels, from accidents.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ART DONLEY on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 11:33 am:

Thanks JIm, I'll try a body shop first.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ART DONLEY on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 11:35 am:

Once the hasp sits on the "bezzel" what hold it in place? Why would it not just pop off?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 11:36 am:

Art, now we know that you have a Hayes rim. You should see the name printed vertically on the lugs. There are four or five different rim manufacturers, but they are not well documented.

Langs appears to be the only company that supplies the proper screw to lock that rim.

Chevrolet used the same rim, but their valve stem hole is not near the split, like it is in this photo.

Rim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George...Cherry Hill, NJ on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 11:53 am:

Art,

It is at least worth a try as Jim Patrick says. Returning it to 'true-true' may be difficult, but getting it "close enough" is possible with a lot of patience and perserverance! I say that because like you, I had a brainstorm as a newbie years ago and wound up with rims out of kilter like yours.

I had one of the Y-cranks for collapsing the rim to get the tire beads off and no instructions or a 'friend' for advice. If a few turns of the 'crank' move the latch away and provide easier access to get a bead off, and the Y-crank has the ability to almost crank forever, then it just made sense to crank away until the tire literally fell off right?

Sure, they turned into Cheeto's cheese curls in the process, and I then had 5 of them that way but stupidly figured pushing back into place with the Y thingamaging would make them round once again! NOT! :-)

Lot's of time, hammering, pulling here and there, lot's more time, and then even lot's more time managed to get 4 of the 5 back 'close enough' that it didn't look like a Conestoga Wagon going down the road! The 5th is on the spare, it was able to latch under a lot of protest, but there is still an offset that isn't even close.

So do talk to a body shop guy or even a good tin knocker, to me these old ones are worth salvaging if possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 12:02 pm:

I have 2 -21 in rims just like photoed, both need rim bolts from Langs, and redrilled (stem) as someone had them on a chevy and welded the T holes shut 100.00 ea plus UPS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 01:08 pm:

I am running 2 of the chevy rims on my 24, work great, just re drilled the fellows. chevy had it right to get the hole opposite the latch, much easier to put on a tire.Have fun, KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Weir on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 06:57 am:

I have investigated maybe 10 or 15 accidents that involved tires or rims exploding while being inflated. Most were fatal, but one non-fatal explosion is still fresh in my mind from 35 years ago. When the explosion occurred, the force tore off the front of the man's head. It gave him a lobotomy. When I saw him, he was in a long term nursing facility and had no chance of leaving it as a well man.

Point is::: be damn careful with any thing that contains any compressed gas!!!!!!!!!.

Merry Christmas

Jim Weir


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 09:48 am:

Maybe I misunderstood. I didn't think this happened while inflating. I thought it happened while prying the tire over the non-collapsed rim that had been welded together. 'Course, I guess inflation was inevitable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Mittrucker on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 10:08 am:

I don't see why you are spot welding it in the first place. This rim has to come apart to put the tire on and off. I can't believe you are trying to pry a tire on with this welded closed. Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but you need a tab bolt to hold this flat down. Invest in a rim spreader to keep from bending the rim out of shape and protect yourself. It's so much easier! You can find rim spreaders on T-Bay daily. Be smart and careful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Conner - Sanford, NC on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 01:30 pm:

I've never witnessed a split rim exploding, but I have seen footage of some of training videos that show how lethal they can be. One safety feature that was manufactured for service men was a cage that wrapped around the tire, whether on the vehicle or the ground. It contained the rim in the event of a blow out.

Like Jim said, anything under pressure is considered dangerous and should be approached with caution.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 01:54 pm:

Art, there are shops that specialize in unbending bent wheels. I had one of them fix a wheel for my Packard, and they did a good job. That's a possibility if you or a body shop can't fix this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 11:04 pm:

I don't know if this will help you but after you get the screw to hold the rim together the right way and you put your tire on and have it ready for air, I always mount the rim back on the wheel to help hold everything in place and THEN air it a little at a time checking everything several times between short bursts of air. At least with it on the wheel the rim can not fold over itself if the latch comes off for any unknown reason. Others may step up and correct me if I am doing it wrong but this makes me feel a little safer anyway. You should not have welded the rim but if it had been mounted when this blew I bet you could sit down now with out that big pain your a..

:-)

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brian clark-Hamilton, Ohio on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 11:41 pm:

Thanks guys..I am now officially scared to death to put on new tires this spring. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Saltsgaver on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 12:52 am:

I lost an uncle a few years ago due to an exploding modern tire. He had just stopped by a shop to check on a fellow he was mentoring & as he walked up to the guy, who was in the middle of mounting a tire on a tire machine, the tire blew & a piece of it hit my uncle in the head & killed him. A freak accident & obviously God had decided his number had come up.

I have my own tire changing machine & have never had an issue, but I give the thing lots of respect.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 01:54 am:

Brian, and others, this is what I posted on another thread.

Now for my requisite dispelling of a myth. These "one piece" split rims, although generally called split rims, are not the notoriously deadly split rims that are two or three part rims. Either the two or the three part rims (also called split rims) can blow apart with many hundreds of pounds of force throwing a three pound steel ring with enough speed and power to separate your head from your shoulders.
These common split rims used by Ford and a hundred other companies (almost) can't do anything like that. It is not really recommended. But you can actually use these rims without a catch. Mount the rim and tube in the tire. Then air it up slowly, making sure the ends of the rim are lined up straight. Once the tire has about 35lbs of air and the rim is being squeezed and held in line by the tube and tire by many hundreds of pounds pressure. It doesn't want to come apart. But I prefer it on a wheel now, not loose.
If the rim DID manage to slip aside (which it cannot do if it is on a wheel) the tube would blow out with a bang heard for miles. You could be surprised enough to fall down, hit your head, have an accident with a power tool. Something like that could cause serious injury or death. Just like any unexpected catastrophic blowout a few feet from where you are working. But the rim itself cannot hurt you, unless you have your finger in the perfect wrong spot. You could get bit and have a boo boo.
I go through all this because many people have heard about the dangers of split rims and become afraid of these on their model T. I want them to feel secure on the original type wheels and rims.
Next part is new.
Mike S.
I will offer my condolences, a few years late. Any tire with more than a few psi in it has enough stored energy to kill a person under the right (wrong?) circumstances. I had a close-call about twenty years ago, and it was with a standard modern pickup steel drop-center rim that developed a stress fracture. Something to think about every time you walk through a parking lot. Every tire with 32psi in it, that is 32 pounds of pressure PER SQUARE INCH of tire sidewall. Take a ruler, measure a five inch by ten inch rectangle. On the sidewall of a tire that is fifty square inches or over 1500 pounds of stored force (over 3/4 of a ton of force). A chunk of tire or a tool thrown by that force can kill.
(All of that is, of course, the simplified version. Three dimensional computations become quite complicated.)
Brian C. Don't be scared, just be careful.
Happy Holidays, drive safely, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 04:58 am:

The "split rims" that are being referred to as dangerous are actually flat base rims. They have a one or two piece lock ring that holds the tire bead onto the rim. The lock ring can become bent or the groove in the rim can get rusted enough to keep the lock ring from seating or they can be mismatched from the manufacturer or many other problems. They are definately very dangerous if not used correctly. The 21inch split rims for a T are totally different.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 05:19 am:

Thank you, David Stroud, well said. Because of the dual use of the term "split rim", too many people are needlessly afraid of their model T.
Thanks again, and Happy Holidays, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brian clark-Hamilton, Ohio on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 01:27 am:

Thanks Wayne.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 01:02 pm:

Although not as dangerous as the 2 and 3 piece rims that need to be inflated in a cage or with chains wrapped around them, the 21" Model T and 23" Model TT split rims can be dangerous. Someone posted a picture here a while back that showed one that the latch had failed while inflating. Looked like a pretzel. They were recommending the tire/rim assembly be mounted on the wheel before inflating.


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