1911 "Double-Phaeton'

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: 1911 "Double-Phaeton'
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 09:57 am:



Image is not great but at the bottom it lists the prices for 3 different styles:

Double-Phaeton 2700 roubles
Torpedo 2500 roubles
Landau 3550 roubles

Landau, the most expensive, is obviously the one in the picture. What body style is a Double-Phaeton? Torpedo is a Touring, correct?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 11:01 am:

I would guess the torpedo is the roadster with doors, and the double phaeton is the tour about (looks like open roadster with a double seat on the rear pedestal).

http://www.mtfca.com/gallery/photos/huson2.jpg

http://www.mtfca.com/gallery/photos/story11.jpg


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George...Cherry Hill, NJ on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 11:26 am:

Phaeton was a word carried over from the carriage trade where it was used first. Later, it became a marketing word to be different things.

Built in ambiguities are apparent...the roadster or runabout would have been at the time by definition a Single Phaeton yet I have never seen that word used to describe one. "Single Phaeton" = light buggy, single double wide seat.

The Touring by the buggy definition then a Double Phaeton. Light Buggy, 2 double wide seats, or a Bob mentions, could be a runabout with a full double wide rear seat. To the best of my knowledge, Ford Detroit never used these descriptors and only began using the word Phaeton much later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 11:59 am:

From en.wikipedia.org

Phaeton is the early 19th-century term for a sporty open carriage drawn by a single horse or a pair, typically with four extravagantly large wheels, very lightly sprung, with a minimal body, fast and dangerous. It usually had no sidepieces in front of the seats. The rather self-consciously classicizing name refers to the disastrous ride of mythical Phaëton, son of Helios, who set the earth on fire while attempting to drive the chariot of the sun.



And that's the truth...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 12:05 pm:

Here is a 1931 Model A Phaeton. When Ford came out with the Model A, he renamed what was called touring in the Model T. The new name was "Phaeton".
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Rosenkrans on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 01:13 pm:

Some of the big expensive cars of the time, like the Packards, Cadillacs, etc. offered what they called a dual Phaeton, or dual-cowled Phaeton, which basically were open touring cars with an additional windshield ahead of the second seat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Sunday, December 19, 2010 - 02:03 pm:

Interesting the term 'phaeton' wasn't used in most early motor car descriptions.

Brookes Automotive Handbook, 1911, has no 'phaeton' reference. Only uses 'touring' to describe two classes, light and standard tourings..std having seats for seven person.
So a little 5 passenger touring like the Ford would be a 'light touring'.

Then Dykes (1922 ed.) goes into details of body types, as defined by the Passenger Car Body Division of the S.A.E. (Society of Automotive Engineers).

SAE lists 'Phaeton' by 1922 as the term of choice for a touring!

But....has a footnote on the term Phaeton....."1"



So, while Phaeton was used for horse carriages, the term only came in the later '20's, and enforced by committee. Though seems to me to be the work of marketing guys to add some glamor and foreign sounding big gloss to the later 20's heavy and fast big open touring cars that seated more than 5. That's why 'Continental' Edsel Ford, who ran in the society circles old Henry didn't go for, named the new Model A body styles as "Phaetons" :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 12:09 am:

Wikipedia says this about TORPEDO:

"The torpedo body style was a type of automobile body used from the early twentieth century until the mid-1930s, and which fell quickly into disuse by the Second World War. The name was introduced in 1908 when a Belgian car dealer Captain Theo Masui who was the London importer of French Gregoire cars designed a streamlined body and called it "The Torpedo". This developed into its final form and became a generic term when the bonnet line was raised to be level with the car's waistline so giving a straight line from front to back. The Torpedo body style was usually fitted to 4 or 5 seat cars and was an open convertible with detachable or folding hood (top) and low side panels and doors, but no B pillars: the only uprights present were those supporting the windscreen (windshield)."

Taken from:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_(car)

Based on this you would have to say the Torpedo for 2500 roubles is probably a Touring...but that leaves the question of what is a Double-phaeton which is 200 roubles more expensive. The name suggests it has two rows of seats. In the USA in 1911 was a Tourabout with 'mother in law' seat in the rear more expensive than a Touring?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CHRIS MARTIN on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 02:20 am:

I would suggest a more European definition of Phaeton, as this would have been pre-revolution Russia.
The descriptions above mostly refer to (as several have mentioned) the adoption, and then misuse of terms by the marketing people at various American car companies.
The European term was for a light open four seat carriage, originally pulled by two horses, but in early car terms, what Americans called Tourers.
I believe by the time of the Model A, Ford were using the term for an upmarket tourer, as it had wind-up windows. Others more upmarket still, Duesenberg and the like, used it as in 'Dual Cowl Phaeton'.
I suspect in Russia this was just a tourer by another name.
Chris M.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen-Central Minnesota on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 09:58 am:

Chris,
Americans call them tourINGS; Aussies call them tourERS.

In America, the meaning of Phaeton evolved from describing a light horse-drawn carriage, to the now-standard definition of a car with two rows of seating and a convertible top, usually without side windows.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, December 20, 2010 - 12:10 pm:

Cris,
Look again at my previous post of the 1931 Model A Phaeton. It did NOT have wind up windows. It had snap on side curtains. It was identical to the 1926-1927 Model T Touring except that it was a bit bigger and had Model A running gear.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CHRIS MARTIN on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 01:52 am:

Sorry, tourings it is then, and I am in Australia but actually a Limey (or Pom) so now we have three countries divided by a common language!
(I was better at French than English at school though, work that one out).
And apologies for the reference to the Model A Phaeton, I was thinking of the later 'convertible sedan' models, but several other manufacturers were using the Phaeton name as a more upmarket model.
By the way, he Russian factory continued making Model A's until 1941 as their own GAZ brand and AA's until '48.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 02:39 am:

Norman - I read your 12/20 - 12:10pm post over several times to try to understand if you really meant IDENTICAL. Guess I finally decided that you did say "except that it was a bit bigger and had Model A running gear".

The "IDENTICAL" kinda' threw me; I think you probably meant,.....very similar in design, huh?

I was (in my mind) trying to visualize interchanging, you know, like dropping a Model A body on a Model T frame and just bolting it right on, or visa-versa! Ha, ha,....no way!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 09:20 am:

They look very similar. Only a few bolts are interchangeable though!
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Olivier CHABANNE on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 03:44 pm:

Hello everyone,

The terms used to name a body is not the same across countries.
For example, in France a "Double phaeton" is a 4-seater open car doors without the front and with or without rear doors. A Model T Ford Touring from 1908 to 1911 is a "Double phaeton. A “Torpédo” is an open car 4 or 5 seats with front and rear doors. A Ford Model T Touring from 1913 to 1927 is a "Torpédo".

Soon

Olivier


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 03:52 pm:

Oliver, so what is a Torpedo in 1911 if a double-phaeton is a Touring? In Imperial Russia they are likely to have taken these words and their meaning from France rather than the UK or USA.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White, Sheridan, MI on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 06:50 pm:

Chebby changed their Touring to Phaeton in '29 when they went to the 6 cylinder engine. This is a '31 Phaeton with 4 doors and side curtains.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 11:08 pm:

That's a great looking USA made 1931 Model A phaeton...but this post is about the meaning of Double-Phaeton and Torpedo in Russia in 1911.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 12:31 am:

Might have to consider that the Russian 'Torpedo' listed is really the runabout or torpedo roadster body style. The prices seem to indicate. The 'Double Phaeton' either the Touring or the Tourabout would be the roadster with a back seat. Then the 'Landau' would be the Towncar or either the 7 pass. Landaulet. All of these body styles were new for 1911.

1911 USA prices: Runabout $680
Torpedo Runabout $725
Touring $780
TourAbout $725
Town Car $960
Landaulet $1000
Perhaps a ruble to dollar exchange rate of 1911 could help?

These pictures are Canadian literature, Canada would perhaps be the export to Russia in 1911?
The names on the cars is a bit different than USA too, note the "Surrey" for the Tourabout.

Perhaps the brief Russian adv just cherry picks the Ford line, and mentions only 3 of the main Ford T body types...torpedo runabout ....touring or tourabout...Towncar or Landaulet ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White, Sheridan, MI on Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 10:38 am:

Sorry Constantine but that's a '31 Chevy.


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