The major automakers filed a suit in the US Court of Appeals today regarding 15% ethanol and its potential to harm fuel systems on newer cars.
When all these "social engineers" get done with this ethanol project, the only cars that will be left on the road will be Model T's.
Gee when I saw the title to this thread I thought Richard might have posted it! (lol)
Thank goodness someone has the guts to fight the morons in Washington.
When oil gets high enough again to stall the US economy again who will fight the that bunch of morons?? Bud.
That is the beauty of a free enterprise system. People vote wth their feet. As soon as something viable is for sale that makes more sense than petroleum based fuels we will all buy it. Until then we won't. Real simple.
In a socialist system the government decides who will sell fuel to you so they can take a big hit on the taxes on their favorite product, and reward their buddies. In such case the government always makes the wrong decision and taxes the living daylights out of people like you and me to pay for their errors.
Sorry Royce,With what little we make with SSI and two small pensions we pay few taxes so it's up to you to pay the bills! Frankly though im a little worried as to what will happen the first of the year when the next batch of morons takes over?? But on the bright side we are warm and tosty heating cheap with Corn instead of high priced oil! Work has started on acess roads for the Windfarm so there is still hope! Bud.
The new fuel has ruined the paint jobs on several of my vehicles. It is unnecessary to mess up the people with silly rules just to make a point and please tree huggers. We have a lot of fuel under the ground here in California and I understand that it is also in Alaska and other place like under the ocean off the coast and they will not let us pump it out.
The way government works is to not solve problems but if one incident happens they make a rule that covers all the innocent ones and makes it tough to do business just because one thing happened.
It's like when I was in school. if Johnny was naughty we all had to stay after school. All it did was to make us mad a Johnny. It did not make Johnny a better boy. I have attached a picture of a fuel saving device for you to enjoy. It will happen here if we keep going the way we are.
Frank,is that the Southern California National guard?
I don't care who you are Thats Funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bud.
I figured it was a load of migrant workers headed this way to pick fruit.
Sounds like you (and some friends) should have had a "discussion" with Johnny when you left school about his behavior.
Some behavior modification sounds in order.
Although it was a good lesson, (not a right one)to everyone that life is not fair....
I am not real sure I see how an engine designed to burn 10% ethanol is going to be damaged by burning 15% ethanol.
Quit burning my grits and cornbread in your car and burn dead dinosaur juice.
Would somebody please tell me what we are supposed to do with all the oil the Creator put in the center of the earth for us to use if we wind up burning all our food instead?I dont know about you,but what oil I have had in my mouth by accident taste terriable.
In case you hadn't noticed, big corporations are driven by profit. Little else matters. They must figure 15% ethanol will cost them a little profit - maybe in warranty.
Meanwhile, GM is the largest carmaker in Communist China. Why did they come begging to the US taxpayer? I guess they learned from the banksters in '08 who borrow from the Fed at 0% interest and buy US Treasury bonds that pay 3%. Wish I could do that. I'd borrow a $Billion, too.
Fossil fuels are a limited resource and we are destroying the planet with our me-now, what ever is easiest (for me) attitude.
Rick hit it on the head. Ford decided to tough it out and cut here and rebuild there. GM got a piggy back ride grabbing all the candy it can get while it's up there. Chrysler is just needs to die a horrible death, something that should have happened a long time ago.
I very seriously doubt we are seeing the end of ethanol blends. The same arguments were presented when lead was removed from fuel, and then again when they took out the sulfur in diesel. Neither one is coming back despite their removal imposing a risk to older vehicles. The government has said there is going to be ethanol in gasoline, my advice is start buying corn commodities like nobody's business.
Our economy is being damaged severely by 10% ethanol. Every dollar of subsidies that pays for ethanol production is a dollar supplied by the Chinese government that pays for a dollar of imported crude oil that is then (at great expense!) converted into ethanol.
This impossibly stupid fiasco is squandering about two billion dollars a year in tax money. It is being done on borrowed money, with principal and interest building every second of every day. It hurts our trade imbalance, drives up the price of food, and causes our taxes to go up. Meanwhile there is no benefit to the environment. It is one of the worst pieces of legislation ever.
Corn,Talk about a 4 letter word!! Corn is eating the paint off all Franks cars,The sourthern Calf National Gaurd has been mobolized,Mack is starving,and Royce is heading to the poor house trying to pay for the mess!! All of this has me so upseat,i think i'll turn the corn stove up and open the window's!! Merry Christmas and happy holiday's to ALL!! PS,Cornbread i like but are gritts made from used corn?? Bud.
Changes in fuel blends and EPA standards has been a means of spurring the economy since the early 70's.
Evaporative emissions helped spur the use of charcoal canisters and other vapor control valves, some good and some not so good with the elimination of open vent fuel systems. Who remembers when the fuel cap was behind the licenses plate and certain vehicles when they accelerated there was a stream of fuel on the ground.
Fuels continued to change from MTBE and now ethanol, next will probably be Butanol.
As one auto maker stated recently in a meeting, " Automakers can only warranty a vehicle up to 10 years life, since fuel keeps changeing. Plus the government wants to hold them accountable when there is warranty or legal action taking place. We need to take a position that we build a vehicle to meet current standards, but the government keeps changeing the rules and wants to hold us liable. We need to stop supplying replacement parts once this vehicle is no longer being produced"
The long term intent is to make old equipment obsolete by changeing the fuel. This will force you to buy a new piece of equipment, since there may be no upgrades in place to retrofit old equipment.
At the risk of bringing the T into this, when people ask, I tell them I can get more parts for the T than for a ten year old car.
And the prices are more reasonable, too. Usually I can get tires as quick as going to the local tire store.
Hemmings blog have taken up this debate too:
The world's scientific and environmental community uniformly is against corn or switchgrass ethanol. It only makes sense to politicians who get kickbacks from it, AKA campaign contributions.
Timothy D. Searchinger recently wrote in Science that ethanol’s overall greenhouse gas contribution as LCES would measure it is actually greater than that from gasoline: “Most prior studies have found that substituting biofuels for gasoline will reduce greenhouse gases because biofuels sequester carbon through the growth of the feedstock. These analyses have failed to count the carbon emissions that occur as farmers worldwide respond to higher prices and convert forest and grassland to new cropland to replace the grain (or cropland) diverted to biofuels. By using a worldwide agricultural model to estimate emissions from land-use change, we found that corn-based ethanol, instead of producing a 20 percent savings, nearly doubles greenhouse emissions over 30 years and increases greenhouse gases for 167 years. Biofuels from switchgrass, if grown on U.S. corn lands, increase emissions by 50 percent. This result raises concerns about large biofuel mandates and highlights the value of using waste products.” Searchinger addresses many of the ethanol industry’s arguments in a separate (very readable) document available here.
You can read almost anything on the WWW so it's a matter of who do you trust/belive?? People can say/post almost anything and usually far behind way out of sight there is a reason for what they spread or try to! I still fail to see how almost anything we produce here with US farms can be bad?? One thing i know for shure,There is far more enegry in Corn than it takes to produce it!!!! Now when someone starts screamning about their tax money do you think the oil companys never get or have goten any?? PS,Anyone get wounded or killed in the war over corn?? Bud.
Great stuff Royce. This same scenario came up a couple years ago concerning Nickel mining for the new batteries slated for use in electric cars. I don't remember the exact details, but the main focus was that the emissions created manufacturing the components greatly outweighed any gains that could have been made by a fully electric car.
Your quote also makes a very good point with this line, "This result raises concerns about large biofuel mandates and highlights the value of using waste products." It has been shown that waste fryer oil can be used as a substitute for diesel with no modifications other than straining. You can see it here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOFbsaNeZps&feature=related
I've never been able to understand why everyone is so fixated on corn when there are other alternatives out that that would be just as good if not better.
Royce, you are wrong. Corn ethanol makes sense to a farmer who can grow corn. and, to all the businesses that support that farmer, etc.
The balance of trade becomes ever worse, taxpayers get screwed, and a few farmers, oil companies and senators make money. Doesn't meet the definition of what the Constitution wanted our government to do, does it?
It is screwing 249 million Americans and benefitting 800 million Chinese and Saudis.
Corn is responsiable for all that?? Bill has the perfect solution!! All we have to do is get Royce getting rich growing corn and there will be nothing/Wrong!! There will be less to gripe about!! It's almost to hot in the house!! Bud.
I started this thread on Monday when I was informed of this suit. I did so with a website reference so I would not be confused with some Chicken Little character from the eastern states.
It is amazing the amount of rhetoric and bickering that goes on about this subject. The fact remains that the auto companies and numerous other engine manufacturers have banded together in one organization to get the government to review this decision. I quote: "The newly formed Engine Products Group (EPG) comprising the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers (Alliance), The Association of International Automobile Manufacturers, Inc. (AIAM), the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA), and the Outdoor Power Equipment Institute (OPEI)" are all part of this effort.
When so many organizations are saying that this new blend has the potential to damage engines through system corrosion and higher temperatures which occur when the engine burns lean at certain points, don't you think we should be paying attention?
Look at http://www.nmma.org/press/pressreleaselibrary/pressrelease.aspx?id=17909 and pick out your favorite engine maker's name. This isn't just an American thing nor is it confined to the automakers. Boats and lawnmowers are part of this movement.
The formal filing is here.
Please stop the bashing and clever comments and take the time to read the facts. What do you plan to do with your 1909-2000 model year car or your lawnmower next year when you can only find E15 at the pump?
Note: The above are my personal thoughts on this matter and I do not presume to represent any organization or manufacturer.
I hear you Tom, loud and clear. Thanks for this thread and Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Thanks Seth, and Merry Christmas to all my fellow forum members and their families.
I was in a waiting room today and it might have been TIME Magazine that I was looking at, but there was a quote that came to mind when I read what Bill wrote a few posts above here.
"To a man with just a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"
We grow corn and soybeans on our farm and have for generations.
I can remember thirty years ago or so there was a corn and soybean check off program where a farmer could voluntarily contribute so much per bushel sold to promote each crop. Ethanol and bio-diesel were going to be the wave of the future. There would be so much increase in the value of each commodity because of the promotion.
And it might have had an effect. I don't know how to measure what it might have been. I think that world events and weather have been a greater influence this year.
What is unfair is that all the big business generally know what a farmers inputs are and can charge accordingly for what they sell to that farmer for his cost of production.
In the midwest is there such a great difference between what would be growing naturaly on an acre of land and the crops that a farmer is growing? Both are plants that are using photosynthesis to convert the suns energy to plant matter, but in the case of a farm producing grain beside the other benifits of plant life there is the stored energy from the sun in the grain. And that is a pretty handy thing to move around.
I'm with Bud when he said,
"You can read almost anything on the WWW so it's a matter of who do you trust/believe??"
Some of what you can believe comes from sixth grade science class.
I don't know if there was a conspiracy for all of this stuff started that far back for me
I guess I am missing something. Every time I drive my car, I burn 10% ethanol, which comes from corn grown by Minnesota farmers. Every time I drive my truck, I burn 5% bio-Diesel, which comes from Minnesota farmers. The tax subsidies aside, I am not sure how this is contributing to a bad balance of trade, or adds to the importation of crude oil. In fact, I think you are wrong, because every gallon of ethanol or bio-diesel I burn, is almost a gallon of fossil fuel that does not need to be imported into Minnesota.
Incorrect sir. It takes a gallon of gasoline, a lot of electricity, and a lot of money to make the corn into ethanol. It is a money losing fiasco, paid for by suckers like you and Bud who don't bother to read - or just don't care - about what is happening around you.
Royce, that gallon of gas you talk about, are you saying that goes is what is spent in the farm equipment to plant and harvest the crop? If so, even if there wasn't ethanol, that gallon would still be spent because the farmers would still be producing that corn.
Well, no, they would not be producing that corn if the corn production was not being subsidized because the corn would not be worth as much, and the price would be lower, and the farmers would grow something that was profitable instead.
The price of all corn is jacked up by government subsidies. The price of the corn causes everything related to corn to be overpriced. Beef, tortillas, E-85, all those things are more expensive than they would be if price fixing and kickbacks were removed.
This would be criminal if we did not have criminals running our government.
You are wrong. You should go and do a little research, and I don't mean watching Al Gore on youtube before you say such wrong stuff on the internet. I will start by saying it takes almost no gasoline to produce ethanol in Minnesota, probably the only gasoline used is for the workers to put in their cars to go to the ethanol plant. Tell me what they use gasoline for to produce ethanol, I truly have no idea.
If anybody doesn't think oil is not subsidized they are terribly mistaken.
Square root Ditto's here of what Royce says!!!
Did you say Royce or rush?? Merry Christmas!! PS,Corn and almost everything produced on farms is with DIESEL and gas is rarely used!! Bud.
as ive always said, use gasoline, or E100, none of the mixture crap, i for one intend to restore a model T close to origional, but safe to drive, and at the same time build a car designed to run entirely on pure ethanol, i have no need for any sort of mix of the two
From what little I've read, it looked like corn ethanol would yield about 100 gallons per acre, per year. That's not very much. Cane ethanol yields more, and it grows year round, but it's not that competitive, even in Brazil.
The US midwest, with its unique climate, soil and watershed, is a major breadbasket for the world. Making ethanol from it takes food from the poor, and the higher price makes others poorer.
I wish we could get govt subsidies out of food production, out of the oil industry, out of drugs, out of exporting jobs, out of finance, etc., and then the world would be a simpler, more fair place.
The original argument for farm price supports was the widely variable yield, with a pretty stable demand. Prices could be sky high, or dirt cheap, bankrupting farmers. With such a large export and import facility now, prices on their own would not vary so much anymore.
Ending govt subsidies would give us more for our tax $$$. Subidies are a sign of Fascism, the merger of government and corporate interests and control.
the price of food is not really very effected by the price of field corn. After all, a bag of Doritos, which costs $3.99, has less than 10 cents worth of corn in it. (corn at $6.14 a bushel, 56 pounds in a bushel weight). A box of corn bread mix has maybe 4 cents worth of corn in it. I realize that the Mexican corn monopoly used the rise in field corn to raise prices for white corn, but that was all market manipulation, not an actual shortage or real cost change.
Junk food is chemical warfare against your body, so doesn't apply. Frozen corn is about $2 a pound. What would the price be without the subsidies?
Price of food not affected by cost of field corn? What about beef and pork? What would they cost without corn subsidies?
Is it time that these preachers turn producers?? Given the knoweledge i would actually like to know the exact ammount of Govt subsidty to the farmer per bu?? That's 56 pounds at 15% moisture.Can you grow suger cane year round where corn is grown?? Could the Suger Beet farmers supply enough suger to offset the lost cane suger?? Are the same preachers ready to P&M about the cost of suger the Amercain Farmer produces or should it be imported?? Here i sit waiting for expert oppion?? Bud. PS,Why is it so many farm experts do not farm?? Bud.
you do realize that as the price of field corn has gone up due to ethanol demand, the amount of subsidies paid by the government for corn has gone down.
By the way, I am against government subsidies to farmers, I would like to see them go away. But, there has been a lot of misinformation on this thread about ethanol.
"The US midwest, with its unique climate, soil and watershed, is a major breadbasket for the world. Making ethanol from it takes food from the poor, and the higher price makes others poorer"
I have never had it explained to me what is left after corn is converted to ethanol. I know they just don't throw the remainder into a landfill. I remember being told that the left-overs were used as animal feed, so to really understand the whole situation you would need to see what the breakdown is for all the parts of the corn and how they are being used.
Does anyone have access to this info?
There is an ethanol plant about a hundred miles from me but I have never been to it for a tour. Perhaps I will someday.
here is an article on feed.
Wait a mineut!! RD say's he has read ethanol yeald is ioo gal per acre and the web site provided by Bill clames 2.7 2.8 gal per bushel! At a average of proably 150 bu per acre where did those gallons plus critter feed come from?? I shure would like to hear more?? Bud.
I would like to say that the efficiency of ethanol production has changed dramatically in the last few years. When companies put many millions of dollars of investment out there, they will do a lot of research and innovations to make more money, and usually that means becoming faster, or more efficient. I would expect that any information that is more than 2 or 3 years old no longer applies.
Well i did as suggested and read a little and learned alot! Maby some of the experts should read a little more themselves?? The Grandkids are gone and we are trying to put the house back to liveable!! Woulden't have it any other way!! I hope everyone has a great one!! Bud.
When I took an engine to the rebuilder last month, I got to see the ethanol damage first hand. The exhaust valves had actually sunk into the block about 1/16th inch, straight down. The intake valves were not affected. This photo shows the exhaust valve on the right and the 1/16th inch vertical wall, although I could not enlarge it any more as it was getting blurry.
I should have also noted that the intake valves were not as affected and this engine block did not have a lot of miles on it.
I assume the damage is done because the motor is running too lean, and there is no hard valve seat on the exhaust. Would a hard valve seat work, or is it just too hot?
Bill thanks for the links.
This thread has a lot of reference to ethanol in the United States. Is there anywhere else in the world that corn ethanol is am issue?
Wow, that article is really full of poo.