Find teh T and identify its age and model
Hummm . . looks like a 'Clown Car' to me . .
Something 'Mikey' might try to make! Merry Christmas to all!!
(Ut-Ohh?) are we still allowed to say that??
I always did like living on the 'edge' ..
so Merry Christmas . . again!!
I think it's a full length chassis and the wheel near the center is just leaning there. The angle of the steering column suggests a speedster, but it could be just an illusion. The gas tank seems pretty far back, too.
What do you suppose those guys were looking for in the hole?
Looks like a '16 judging by the headlights, firewall and radiator.
Look at the guy in the center, he has some kind of a fob with a badge on the end.
That's not a badge....that's the end of the fob for a pocket watch.
The colored gent in the center is obviously not part of the group of men surrounding him.
How can one be absolutely sure that a T is buried? The most solid evidence that I see is that pile of parts including two wheels and at least two oil pans, stacked against the brick wall.
I think they're digging a grave for the ol' Flivver. <grin>. As for the group standing around the hole, typical management situation. They all have to watch the guy who's doing the work.
believe it is a bunch of wheels from a utility company looking at a storm drain problem. There is a tripod for a survey instrument on the ground and the dude in the hole may be a crew chief of some sort.
"The colored gent in the center is obviously not part of the group of men surrounding him."
The "colored gent"? What color is he? That term hasn't been acceptable in polite society since Sen. Robert Byrd renounced his affiliation with the KKK.
How is it that the man with the fancy watch fob is "obviously" not a part of the group?
he is not part of the group because he is the only one with dirty shoes, no suit, coat or tie, and everyone else is laughing, and jovial, and he seems much more serious. The clothing tells me he is not a part of the surrounding group.
Did the cops discover is a secert moonshine transport tunnel? Or maybe a Great Escape tunnel dug too far?
Who do you think dug the hole? The guy with the dirty shoes. That's why he isn't smiling.
What does the guy bending over the hole have in his hand?
It's a government job. Eight men supervising one man doing the work.
That's Gerhaldo's Dad. He's looking for Al Capone's vault.
I'll have you know, Mr. Hylen, that there were far, far more people in the US Congress affiliated with the KKK than just Mr Byrd.
And furthermore, I take personal offense to your thinly veiled "racist" labelling of me comment.....
i like saying Merry Christmas too!
Merry Christmas all
"That term hasn't been acceptable in polite society since Sen. Robert Byrd renounced his affiliation with the KKK."
Has anyone told the NAACP?
I tried saving the picture and zooming in on the item in the one man's hand. It seemed to me like a kind of odd shape, but it became blurry before I could see what it was. Of course, it could also be something I'm not familiar with, in which case I wouldn't know what it was even if I could see it clearly...
1915 or 16.
It looks like he is holding the top of a broken glass bottle. Moonshine tunnel may be a good guess.
Notice the Ford fender next to the tree base and just left of the gentleman who appears to have darker skin than the others? They must be looking for Model T parts! (Chuckle)
The guy climbing out of the hole has just had the pleasure of Miss Betty's company for the afternoon! He was the last man out and the others are waiting for him so they can depart back to their government offices in Washington so they can give their report to J Edger Hover. They are a bunch of "G" men.
The T looks to be 15 or 16.
For a closer look at the Ford in question, here is a more detailed picture of it. Hope this helps.
The wheels are square fellow, so it may be a 1917 or so, with a brass radiator thrown on top. As for the "colored" term, it is not necessarily offensive, just "dated" according to my "colored" friend I just asked. I'm sure the "PC Police" on here may disagree still.
Actually, that word was the word I was taught to use by my mother because it WAS the polite term. It amazes me how the passage of time causes one to take offense at what was once considered polite. It is just a matter of time before whatever word you think is polite and correct today will be considered offensive.
It looks to me that the fellow climbing out of the hole was involved in a near fatal racing accident... crashed car, sporty driving cap. No doubt the good Samaritan in the center witnessed the accident and alerted the Ford racing department who is assisting the unfortunate driver.
Yes, I was taught to use that word INSTEAD of the other word I learned growing up, which I do find offensive.
Well, the guy is coming up out of a basement, notice the brick lining down in the hole. It's not a narrow tunnel, since he didn't bother taking off his hat. The large piece of metal must have been used to cover over the 'secret' entrance to the basement. With that many suits in attendance, I would say a Prohibition offence is not unlikely. The guy in the center may be the guy that called the cops. The guy bending down may be handing the guy in the hole his glasses back, as if he was holding them for him. The question for further speculation would be that if the car is a 1917 or so, it wouldn't be that old (10 years maybe?) what would cause it to be so thoughly torn apart at such a young age?
It's not a hole it's a tunnel. First, note that the side of the "hole" is made up of cement blocks. Second, read the article that accompanies the picture (open the provided link). It is a series of tunnels as stated in a 1924 article.
I would think that "colored" would be as appropriate as "negro" would be in 1915 or 1916.
Whatever you call him, he does not look nearly as amused as the other well dressed men.
I don't think it is a lube pit.
I'd guess the tunnel is related to something illegal... gambling, booze, or brothel. Notice I did not say broads.
: ^ )
Looking at the hi res pic in the link, the guy is handing him the broken neck of a whisky bottle. The T has a steel firewall.
Looks like a wood firewall to me. It has the early cast firewall brackets, low head, looks like an aluminum hogs head, above the axle wishbone, and I could be wrong, but forked headlights. I'm thinking '15.
Looks like oval spoke wheels, ribbed pedals... Is that a double wishbone, and oval tank? - I could be wrong but it looks like a '15 chassis with some later parts tossed in.
Brass radiator but electric headlights,......hmmmm. Judging by the angle of the steering column, I'm also thinking ex speedster, as in totally warn out.
As to other "comments" mentioned above, I hesitate to get into this discussion, however I think Hal Davis summed it up EXACTLY! William certainly meant no disrespect!
My 93 year old Mom, absolutely insists on using the term Negroe, because she insists that terms like "black" are disrespectful. Like Hal said, it's a simple matter of just being old and can't/won't change her way of thinking about many, many things.
Oops,...I meant WORN out; not warn out!
I’ve got a feeling the gentleman with the muddy shoes is a victim
of hard times, and that may well be ‘home’. Check the laundry on
the string tied between the trees.
William, I chose my words poorly. I did not mean to imply that you are racist. I did mean to say that if we ever expect to do away with racial tension, we need to stop using the terms that bring about the tense feelings. Believe me, most black people don't see any difference between colored and the "N" word. They prefer to be called black or African American and that's the way it's been for the last forty years. They don't want to be called colored or hear that your best friend is colored and he doesn't mind.
As for the photo, I believe that it is a group of revenuers looking into a moonshine operation. The two black men are part of the group and are there to take care of any physical labor that might be required. This was common back then. Yes, I'm sure that in '24, the other members of their group did not call them black men, but that doesn't mean that it's okay for us to degrade them too.
Based on the rounded wood firewall with hood former, headlight forks and high/low wishbone, I'm going early '15 or updated '14 on the chassis. There are several later T parts lying around.
Eric, I don't really want to get into a micturition competition about this, but I have to think that, if the word "colored" were as offensive as you are presenting it to be, the NAACP would have changed their mission and vision statements a long time ago:
OK, Eric, all is good. I've reflected and I also apologize.
Now, IF we scroll down below that picture on the shorpy link, and read the article that accompanies the picture, we find that the gentleman in question is a janitor at the housing complex the tunnel and T were discovered LOL
Sorry Dick, we're all done leaking on the subject. If you'd like to further discuss the dichotomy between the NAACP website and the feelings of Black Americans, I'd suggest a "man on the street" survey over in East St. Louis.
Agreed, Eric. No more (wiki)leaks. My inclination is to consider "colored" as very dated rather than offensive, rather like "machine" for "car." I use "black" in conversation, since it makes a nice juxtaposition with "white" (which is used to refer to me). I only use "African-American" sparingly, since I consider its white equivalent to be "European-American," and no one ever calls me that.
As a complete aside, when I was little, my parents taught me "Eeny, meeny, miny, mo, catch a tiger by its toe..." It wasn't until I was an adult and a lieutenant in the Air Force in Arkansas that I heard the other version. From an academic standpoint, I think the other version is probably original, since tigers don't have toes and don't holler. It does speak well for my parents, though, and I can safely say that I have only used what is euphemistically called "the N-word" (which I consider a funny euphemism, since you have to know the word to know what "the N-word" is, and if you know it and I know it, why don't we just say it?) in discussions about language or in quoting someone else who used it.
Ah, well.... Merry Christmas!!
The gentleman in the center is a Mr.Green The janitor of the apartments where the hole was found and the first one to inspect and report the tunnels. His presents was probably important to the inspection, therefor he was included in the photo. Describe him as you wish, however he was apparently just a good citizen doing his civic duty.
Was Mr. Green the janitor or the 'custodian'? There...another taboo word.
Look at what are taboos in a culture...that will give you a greater understanding.
The remains of the T speak for its integrity, no body, but nobody wanted to throw it away either, so there it lays.
This my guess.......Those guys are members of the Long Beach Model "T" club...."Someone" from the Orange Co. club told them about a "15" Town Car buried in an ally in Torrence......And the guy commin' out of the hole,just got done tellin them it only a Dr's Coupe...........I'm just sayin' Carl
Well, I was one of the first to say something about the pile of parts next to the brick wall. If Jimmy Hoffa didn't disappear until after Model T days, I would say that they might be looking for him. Since that can't be so, seems I remember an alley in Nogeles, Arizonia that looked like that. Maybe they were Border Patrol officers or informants.
The word 'Jew' is also a derogatory word. It is not polite to call someone a Jew. YOu can say they are Jewish or of the Jewish faith.
Im so white my horn goes "honky honky"
Oh wait a minute!!! I just offended myself.
Perhaps I should just grow up and save being offended for something that actually matter
No, that would be too easy. I would prefer to sulk in my self pity and blame someone else for my failings.
I wonder if anyone would be offended if I got horn that made the aoogah sound.
Merry Christmas to all...God bless you an yours.
I'm offended by your offencisity...
dating the T should be easy just enlarge the photo so we can read the engine number and casting date
Look at my first comment....it neither describes that persons color nor race. Only a "guy".
Sometimes, just for fun, if somebody assists me in loading grocerys they usually ask a description of the car Im driving I tell them “an old black ford”. I enjoy the wow look when they see that my “old black Ford” is actually a 94 year old Model T.
To be politically correct and sensitive, I guess I should drop the word “old”. Goodness knows I don’t want to deal with hate mail from the AARP. I probably need to nix the word “black” also as to avoid offending the Reverend Al. That leaves me with only “Ford” but I guess I’ll have to cut that too so as not to offend any Chevrolet people. So the next time Im asked what I’m driving I guess I’ll just say “a car”.
I have been called: cracker, whitie, white boy, honky, redneck, old man, old boy and the list goes on and on. While I do not really prefer any of the descriptions, I have better things to do with my time than complain about what somebody called me. To be perfectly honest the descriptions are, for the most part, accurate. So, if you call me whitie, no big deal…by the way, my skin color isn’t white. Peachie????
I desire to be gracious and kind to everyone. I do not seek to offend anybody. If I’ve offended anyone, please accept my apology, offence was not my intent.
At some point though a line must be drawn. I refuse to be politically correct for the sake of “fear of adjectives”. Grow up!
Bob, yeah, really.
Dave, at the risk of disagreeing with just about everyone here, I don't think that Jew is a derogatory term for a Jew, any more than Muslim is a derogatory term for a Muslim or Christian is a derogatory word for a Christian.
As Nina Totenburg might say, Merry - pardon the expression - Christmas everyone!
I was once chastized for using the word "Oriental." I was told in no uncertain terms (By a white guy) that the proper term was "Asian." Funny, "Oriental" was what I had always thought was the proper and polite term, and I assure you, I meant nothing derogatory by using it. It won't be long before "Black" and "Hispanic" will be unacceptable. "African-American", "Latino" and "Asian" will probably be unacceptable in 50 years.
And here I thought it was a picture from Arizona and the tunnel was one of those coming from Mexico and the guy emerging from the tunnel is being handed a green card and the gentleman with the dirty shoes is now being told his employment is being terminated and this guy will be taking his place for half his wages.
If you look carefully at the guy on the left behind the guy with glasses on the high def picture you might think he is the brother of the key fob guy.
Since this original post got hijacked into a discussion on "political correctness", I'll offer this desertation written by a "black" gentleman in Texas:
When I born, I black.
When I growup, I black.
When I go in sun, I black.
When I cold, I black.
When I scared, I black.
When I sick, I black.
and When I die, I still black.
You white folks . . .
When you born, you pink.
When you grow up, you white.
When you go in sun, you red.
When you cold, you blue.
When you scared, you yellow.
When you sick, you green.
When you bruised, you purple.
and When you die, you gray.
So, who you callin' "colored" folks?
That about sums it up.
As a European American,Formerly called Caucasian or White, I am deeply offended at the biased and deeply discriminatory comments of that bigoted person from Texas... (Sounds foolish doesn't it)!
The only problem I can see with some peoples skin is that it's too darn thin!
When the topic was explained to my grade school age daughter many years ago, she said "too bad God didn't give us fur coats like dogs and cats then we'd all be different colors and no one would care"
Merry Christmas to all!
Good one John (thin skin).
I was told in the fifties that I am colored. Black folks I worked with told me that. They said I was white.
My mothers folks came from Norway. She was not Norweigenish... she was Norweigen.
There is Jewish food but the people are Jews.
You never listen to Rabbi Lappin? He's a Jew and a local talk show host here in the San Fran sico
area. A damn good talk show host too I might add.
Seems whitish folks who drive model T'ish cars can stray of the subject easily.
The hole in the vacant lot was covered with the sheet of whatever that is there and some stuff was hidden in the hole. Those whitish guys are probably some kind of officials and the blackish guy is a securityish gaurd who reported it.
Oh, people from Spain are Spanish but those from Russia are not Russionish.
Once again.... they are JEWS not Jewish.
Aaron. Hey that's a Jewish name!
A few years from now in the future, it will not make any difference. It will become like hair color or eye color! In my family a Finnish cousin married a Chinese man and they have 3 children. Another white uncle married a Mexican and they had 4 children, one of which married a Costa Rican, and their daughter married a Filipino. One of our grandsons married a Cambodian and they have a son. One of my sons married a woman who is part Native American. My wife's white sister and brother have grandchildren who are part Black. Most of the "white" people in the United States are a mixture of many different nationalities originally from various parts of Europe. What difference does it make? My color changes in accordance with how much sun exposure I have. And so do those who are called,"colored".
Anyway, what does all this have to do with the picture of the hole and the Model T parts?
And I am Belgian NOT "Belgium" as some like to say. Nor am I Belgiumish as Aaron might say.
You mean there's Model T parts in the picture?!
What color are they?
I was once chastized by my WWII vet grandfather for shouting "Olly Olly Oxen Free!" while running around the yard playing hide and go seek. He proceeded to tell me that the Nazi's would machine gun the Jews and other prisoners while shouting "Alle, alle auch sind frei!". I guess the Nazi's would stop the prison train, and let one prisoner run free into the distance. They then yelled "Alle, alle auch sind frei!". Which meant "Everyone, everyone, else is free!" Then the machinegunner would open up on the rest trying to run away. Talk about a phrase being morphed by kids...I don't say it anymore.
Jerry, if it weren't for the Belgians, the Dutch wouldn't have anyone to make jokes about...
Hey, guys, I have a dilemma here that I hope someone can help me with. I belong to a Masonic Yahoo group and one of the Jewish members in Israel just posted this to the group:
"Dear Brethren all,
Please receive a sincere wish for Merry Christmas and Happy New Year from the Holy Land, where we are enjoying wonderful weather, no flight problems, and a record number of tourists.
May the New Year bring us peace and understanding, instead of bombs and hatred.
My dilemma is this. If an Israeli Jew wishes me a Merry Christmas, am I supposed to be offended or not?
Check it out, thank you very much....
Pay close attention at about 7:05!!!
Jerry - Most people miss the best part of Belgium.
I spend a bit of time in Brussels, Leuven and Tienen.
The local beers were fantastic!
And the food in Brussels could not be beat.
I just wish you would find a place for the poor little boy (Mannekin Pis) to relieve himself so he isn't stuck doing it in public!
Pee almost sound like T so it is not too far off subject!
Jerry, very cute.
I had studied French in high school and college and lived in Paris for a year before being transferred to Amsterdam. I was going back to visit friends in Paris and was by now driving a car with Dutch plates and an NL sticker. I got lost and stopped to ask directions. Since I had only been in Holland for a few months, I didn't speak Dutch yet, so I stopped at a roadside place in Flanders and began asking directions in French. Wow! How to make yourself unpopular... The funny thing is, once I explained that I was American and we could also speak English, they suddenly remembered that they spoke French after all...
Fred, I agree about the food. You can eat very well in Brussels. I understand that there is a very good Belgian restaurant in Denver. Some of the Dutch translators ate there during the recent ATA conference in Denver in November.
"My dilemma is this. If an Israeli Jew wishes me a Merry Christmas, am I supposed to be offended or not?"
Dick, what's to be offended about? I'm from a Jewish family (and married to a Christian) so I can tell you that here in the U.S. folks go around saying "Merry Christmas" to everyone. They seem to be enjoying the season and proffering good wishes for all. They don't realize that it can make non-Christians feel a little uncomfortable. So when your Jewish friend says "Merry Christmas" he is doing it out of respect and kindness for you. It is not a disrespectful greeting and is done because he is a friend and to do otherwise would be disrespectful to you.
Whether or not you realize it that greeting required thought and conscious effort by your friend, something which often is not included in the very same greeting spoken by a Christian folks. You can consider responding "Happy Chanukah" or more simply, "Thank you"... both work well.
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, good life to y'all!
Terry, I realize that. My question was somewhat tongue in cheek. I basically am pleased when anyone wishes me a happy anything. I was really poking fun at the easily-offended among us. I did wish my Jewish friends a happy Chanukah, and I also wish them "L'shona tova" at the appropriate time. What I was addressing was the exaggerated sense of being offended by good wishes that seems to be growing at this time of year.