Steering - Gear Box

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: Steering - Gear Box
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dwight Smith on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 04:46 pm:

Based on the attached photo I'm assuming there is way to many grooves in the gear box housing. It appears that the groove on the right has grown in length and has a ramp feature to it, I assume from wear. The right side should look more like the left side so there is a positive stop, I think.

As for the pinion gears they where shot, the clearance between them and the pins was .020". This would explain the gravely feel when turning the wheel after removing the column from the car.

From a repair standpoint, braze and machine?
Gear box


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 07:10 pm:

Perhaps fine a better case? Are the teeth around the inner ok? If so, then could be reused.

That groove for the long pinion was changed in length with the 5:1 ratio (case on left). The shorter groove is the 4:1.

As long as the long pinion gets stopped at the end of the steering wheel rotation, all is good. That groove doesn't have to be perfect.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 08:23 pm:

If the three little gears are loose on the shafts ,they can be center drilled and rebushed to correct wear. It's best to have new pins when doing this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 09:25 pm:

Jack

Lot of work to re-bush.

Just get NOS parts !

Got these from little big John, nice, NOS pinion drive gear and NOS planetary gears too, 4:1 but I am happy.





The NOS shaft with gear only, so had to remove and press on the collar and bearing shaft from the bad one. (on left) You can see how rough those teeth were.

Also, note the little gears have '4' stamped on the face, must be NOS replacement, as factory ones on the 4:1 are never marked, only the '5' is seen with the larger 5:1 sets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 09:31 pm:

Dan,it's the difference between restoring and just replacing. Some do,some don't. (G)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dwight Smith on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 10:01 pm:

Thanks for the feed back, but I'm a little puzzled at the moment. I had ordered a 5:1 set from Lang's upon initial disassembly, the car is a 26 Tudor. However they sent me a 4:1 set by accident, but it is the same ratio as what I took out. When I put the three small gears in they fit nicely with the teeth in the gear case, but I can't install the center gear,not enough clearance. With the steering shaft out and one small gear in place I can see that the center gear is off center. I did install new pins intothe steering shaft.

My next step is to measure the center line of the pins to the center hole and get a base line reading.It looks like there is a .035" difference in the CL's between the 5:1 & 4:1 ratios.

The orginal gears checked up to .420" on the center hole and the new gears are at .375". Plus someone had brazed the hole area of the old gears to tighten them up. The pins were loose in the steering shaft.

I think I have a hodge podge of parts that someone attempted to make it work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 10:52 pm:

Dwight

Good to have check that out! The Service Manual deems this a very important issue to not interchange the parts listed.




On one rebuild, I used the new gears 5:1 set from Texas T Parts. But be sure the steering gear post is for the 5:1, if someone changed out the whole steering post (long shaft to the pitman arm) then nothing with fit right.

The new set were pretty nice, needed a bit of 'fitting' with valve paste to get the action between the gears smooth.





There was one bind spot (marked gear in housing with ink) where a bit of resistance was made, so with some lapping with the valve paste, all the gears ran good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John A Kuehn on Tuesday, December 28, 2010 - 08:43 pm:

While the subject is steering gear cases Ford didnt start using the stop pin and grooved case till 22 if I remember. Not exactly for sure.
The earlier Model T's didnt have the stop pin to control over steering and I guess things worked out OK I guess.
The steering column on the 21 that I am restoring had a case that didnt have the groove so I changed the case to a grooved one to allow for a stop pin.
That will not work as I found that the earlier steering shaft that didnt use a stop pin is not the same as the laters ones that do.
The steering pin boss on top of the shaft is not in the same relation to the groove as the later shafts are.
So I will use mine without the pin stop until I can find a later shaft.
Do folks that have the earlier T's have trouble with over steering? Just wondering.
I know you can get the 5/1 upgrade shaft and gears so if they have the earlier cases I guess they dont use the stop pin since the case isnt machined for it.
Any thoughts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By lorenzo leon on Tuesday, December 28, 2010 - 08:54 pm:

should the pins be hardened ? the pins i got from the vendors are soft
Unlike the ones that came off [originals]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 12:58 am:

I used drill rod that was .001" or .002" larger than the original pins in the gearcase on my TT. The original pins pushed out of the shaft very easily. The slightly oversized pins pressed in very snugly and also took out a bit of play in the slightly worn gears. Kind of like killing two birds with one stone so to speak. The drill rod is also pretty hard as is. I don't recall the cost, but we got a piece about two feet long for just a few dollars, enough to do several gearcases. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 01:03 am:

John Kuehn, do you need a 4to1 shaft? I have a very nice one that I had built up and machined on the lower end and then found a 5to1 setup that I used instead. If so, send me a PM. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dwight Smith on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 11:33 am:

Update on the progress.

Based on good feed back from Dan & Jack I did a little more digging and found that the steering shaft was a 5:1 ratio based on taking dimensions from the center pin to the three outer pin locations.

The photo below is a picture of the three smaller gears that came out of the gear case. As you will see someone did some work to braze up the center holes. But they then took and enlarged the holes to make them fit in the gear case.
three small gears
I guess safety wasn't their first priority.

Just received the correct 5:1 gear set and things fit perfect, one gear is a little snug on the new pin, but I can work with that.

The car has been under a total restore and I'm seeking to have it as dependable as I can, yet knowing there will be little things that need attention at times.

I appreciate the feed back on all parties that chimed in on this subject. The attached photo indicates where we was earlier in the fall, a little farther now. Hope to see it on the road by spring.
Restoration phase


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 12:46 pm:

Dwight,

Got it looking good.
Put back together time is fun.

Larry


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