Safety hubs with both large and small drums mounted on a brass car with Rocky Mountain brakes and Buffalo wire wheels

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: Safety hubs with both large and small drums mounted on a brass car with Rocky Mountain brakes and Buffalo wire wheels
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris Big Bear Lake, California on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 06:43 pm:

I don't need any comments from the usual jokesters but my nuts are too big and I need to solve the problem of my big nuts. I am building a car to run the Chris Egsgaard famous very fast engine and am having issues with the rear axle specifically modified to accept 100 horsepower or more. The car is an early one and I want to make it look correct with both the small and large brake drums.

I have a sandwich made out of a 1913 small drum axle and backing plate with modern roller bearings, cast brake shoes, and both small and large Ford pressed steel brakes drums. These are all mounted to safety hubs on the inside and Buffalo dental drive type hubs on the outside in a thick sandwich with grade eight fasteners.

My first issue was that the rotating mass banged into the spring perch and nut. So I had to shorten the spring perch bolt length and face off the castle nut which was one inch thick by removing 1/8" on the inside and trimming the outside the same amount. The perch bolt was re-drilled to receive a cotter pin and all is well. There is now 1/4" more clearance and the rotating mass now clears the spring perch assembly without the Buffalo fasteners in place. I get 360 degrees of rotation without interference.

Now the problem arises with my big nuts. The Buffalo wheels will attach to the dental drive when the bolt heads are outboard but the inside nuts and bolts bang into things on the inside. When reversed so that the nuts are on the outside, the Buffalo wheels will not seat on the dental drive with the big nuts on the outside.

I faced the wheel mounting bolt heads off to make them each 1/8" thinner and it clears the brake shoe and the spring perch when installed on the inside But then the nut and lock washer are on the outside will not let the wheel grab the hub correctly and it wobbles. If I reverse the fasteners the wheel fits the detent but the nuts and bolts on the inside bang into the brake springs and brake shoes.

I can purchase thinner nuts with no locking washers and make it a 1/4" thinner so the dental drive will seat properly and mount the assembly with lock tight rather than a lock washer and make a thinner sandwich and would like to know if it is safe to use lock tight in place of a lock nut.


I am in a catch 22 and would appreciate no jokes please.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 07:08 pm:

Could some of those nuts be used that have 4 sides squezed inward to make sorda a lock nut?
Dont know what they are called but you can see a indention on 4 of the hex's.There is also a squezzed nut that you can see is "oval" on 1 side.Those can be a pain and you need good threads for them.I have stripped threads trying to get them on something before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris Big Bear Lake, California on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 07:15 pm:

Mack, I used to make FAA approved GAMA and drawings with ANS fasteners and they always had five (5) grades of thread fit, but I have forgotten more thnm I ever knew about that and would like to know what is at Ace Hardware today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 07:29 pm:

Frank,
I bored out the small emergency brake drums to fit around the perimeter of the safety hubs and plug welded them to the larger Rocky Mountain drums. This gained me 1/8" clearance. Don't know if that will work with later Ford large drums because of their shape.
Another way to get more clearance is to bore out the T hub, preferably one with a bad key way. Than turn down another hub to fit inside the bored out one. Trial fit the assembly on the car and adjust the location of the outer hub by sliding it in or out to get the desired clearance. Then plug weld the assembly together. I drill 4 to 6 staggered 1/2" holes around the perimeter of the outer hub and a small amount into the inner hub for the plug welds. This gives a strong result. One downside of this modification is it may leave a bit of the small emergency brake lining showing when assembled but should be OK if it is not excessive.
One more idea. How about drilling and threading new holes in the safety hubs for the bolts and use thin nuts for additional locking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris Big Bear Lake, California on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 07:53 pm:

Art, I do not understand how that would allow clearance inside or outside. It would make the sandwich thinner but that is not the issue. The issue is that the nuts are too thick no matter where they are placed. Inside they bang into the brake shoe castings and coil springs even when they're mounted from the inside and when mounted outside they will not let the Buffalo wheel fit into the detents.

So again my question is can I use the thinner grade 8 nuts and lock-tight without lock washers and be safe ? I don't want to chuck the nuts up in a lathe and make them thinner because I can get them off of the shelf. I could use thin star washers if I must use washers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 08:00 pm:

Have you considered helicoils in the safety hubs and using shorter bolts to attach the Buffalo dental drive?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris Big Bear Lake, California on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 08:16 pm:

Ted the length of the bolts is not an issue it is the thickness of the nuts. Can I safely use thinner nuts and no lock washers with locktite ?


I know I could tap out the hub flange for threads and not use nuts and then use locktite to secure it without lock washers and nuts.

I am just angry because shelf items require engineering and modification after the fact. But then I am doing something unusual and must jump through hoops.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 08:25 pm:

Frank - I'm running a set Dan McE's safety hubs on my Racer with disc wheels using Lok-Tite and no lock washers - you just need to check 'em once in a while. I borrowed some nail polish from the wife and put a spot on each nut for a tattle-tale.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris Big Bear Lake, California on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 08:33 pm:

Steve, thanks you are my kind of guy. I could thread the hubs and put larger bolts in from the inside now that the spring shackle has been taken care of. I just don't want to go down in roaring nasty flames even at my advanced age of pushing 80 real hard. It appears like Lock-tite rules.

That and the old rule of hammer it shut and weld it closed. . . . . . . Then file it to fit and paint it to match. The FAA used to buy it . . . . . and I got paid and no one died.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 10:02 pm:

The weak link is the thread of the bolt. A grade 8 nut with a grade 5 bolt gains you nothing as the bolt thread will fail before the thread in the nut. If you use grade 8 bolts, you will gain over grade 5 bolts, even with a thinner nut.

You could twist one off with a torque wrench and see what your safety margin is.

Can the bolt heads be safety wired?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.M.Head in St Sauveur Quebec Canada on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 10:24 pm:

would you post some pics of your set up - I am intrigued....I am looking to use improved brakes, but a stock appearance (no visible discs...).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 - 10:52 pm:

Frank,
This is how my car is set up. The Model T hub is located on the axle taper, which determines its position. The brake drums are sandwiched on the inboard face of the hub, and the safety hub is sandwiched inboard of the drums. The hub bolt nuts bear against the safety hub, so any reduction of thickness on the inboard side of the hub should provide more clearance for the nuts. Boring out the small brake drum to fit over the safety hub allowed the safety hub to move out 1/8 of an inch away from the brake internals. That allowed for 1/8" more room for the nut clearance.
It also allowed for more room for the brake shoe width.
I hope this makes sense. I may not be understanding how your setup is configured so what I did may not apply to you are doing.
Good luck with your project. It sure sounds like it will be a lot of fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable Kiama Australia on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 04:20 am:

I had a similar problem, I have done similar to Art, I needed new axles so had them made 1/8" longer, If you havn't gotr them already you can get the longer axles new. you could also weld the small drum to the large drum on the outside of the small drum, then cut away the small drum metal away from the bolts holes and weld inside also you would then gain the missing small drum metal. The large drum should be able to take the load of the brakes as it would normally be by itself anyway.

I had cast drums made in one piece so was able to machine the inside of the drum to gain clearance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris Big Bear Lake, California on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 12:35 pm:

Someone just told me to used a couple of shims to gain the needed length.

Peter and Art, I drew an exact full sized picture of the assembly on paper and now see how cutting the center out of the brake drum will add an eighth of an inch of space. I was in error and did not see how making the sandwich thinner would assist with clearance but the hub always goes in the same distance so I gain an eighth of an inch. I don't weld and have no way of cutting out the center and have estimated that it would cost me $100 to have the holes cut and the drums welded together.

Axle shims are less than a dollar each and will do the same job. I can turn the bolts around and use the thinner nuts along with the axle shims and should have clearance to burn and money in my pocket. I have the necessary clearence with the heads of the bolts turned down and placed inside but the nuts on the outside will not let the Buffalo hubs seat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 02:37 pm:

Frank, what about using New axles the one made longer? Maybe if you time issues are flexible the same guy can make even longer axles. Of course if you don't need new axles the expense is budget blowing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris Big Bear Lake, California on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 03:03 pm:

Jerome, The axles are brand new and we have all timkin tapered bearings and ball bearings with new gears. Axle housing rivets brazed up and straightened. all new. I will simply use shims.




rear axle


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Vagasky on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 03:58 pm:

Frank, maybe this type of brake drum is what you need.
castironbrakedrum


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris Big Bear Lake, California on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 04:30 pm:

Yes, how much ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Vagasky on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 06:31 pm:

Frank, the drums are a part of a complete early RM brake setup I have and will be for sale at the Big3. Or I would trade evenup for a complete 26-27 RM brake setup.
Don V.
rmbrake


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable Kiama Australia on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 08:12 pm:

Forgot to mention that the nuts on my hubs were also countersunk into the safety hubs that gives you extra thread length without the nuts being thicker.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tom leroux on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 09:22 pm:

frank
try hillco in garden grove
they have special nut 1/2 nuts with locks
they are open till 12 friday
tom


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