How much oil leak is normal?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2010: How much oil leak is normal?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Williams on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 01:55 am:

I just got a 26 touring that when driven a short distance and put back in the garage, it leaves an 8" diameter puddle of oil on the floor. The oil is coming from the torque tube ball joint on the rear of the trans.

How much oil leak is normal and what can I do to fix it?

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Yoder on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 02:04 am:

24qt --10,000 miles


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 02:10 am:

Hope the plug is not missing from inside the rear clutch plate assy. Does the engine have many miles on it? A loose rear main bearing will contrubute to greater oil loss thru the torque tube ball joint. Driving up steep hills also puts more oil at the forth main. Over filling the oil level also causes greater loss thru the rear main bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 02:40 am:

some 4th mains had a drain hole for oil to run back into the sump, it shouldn't leak, depending on how good the drive shaft bearings etc are, it may even, over a long period, fill the final drive up with engine oil, if you don't want to pull it apart stuff it full of grease as it should be.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 07:47 am:

Robbie,

That sounds like too much. Maybe the hogshead gasket is leaking, or the plug is missing from the middle of the clutch shaft. Clean it up real good and then determine exactly where it is coming from. The hogshead gasket is easy to replace. The plug, not so easy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Williams on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 08:04 am:

I think the oil is coming out of the ball joint itself then dripping down the back end of the trans.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 08:23 am:

The ball joint is one of those steel to steel connections that are very difficult to seal. It is lubricated with thick grease which tends not to leak as bad as oil, but if you have a fourth bearing with worn babbit that allows oil from the crankcase to pass between the the driveplate shaft and bearing surface, it will dilute and thin the grease in the ball joint, creating a bad leak at this point. Not much you can do but put a pan under your engine, keep the oil topped off and address it on your next engine rebuild. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 10:43 am:

What are you using for oil? I had a similar situation this winter using 10-30W. I drove the T at 18 degrees (F) this winter when I went to put her in the storage. She always leaks some, but I had never driven her when it was that cold. When I got to our friends place those little leaks appeared to be pouring oil out. I certainly am no expert but I think my issue was the oil weight, but the spring will verify.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse granville,ohio on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 11:10 am:

Check the forth main and be sure there is only one gasket between the flange and the hogshead.No gasket required between the rear flange (where the grease cup is)---if there is one there remove it---as this causes a potential oil leak. Pack the u-joint full of grease as this prevents loss of engine oil, down the grive shaft. Good luck! It sounds like Your leak is worse then "normal"----paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 11:39 am:

PS. During my engine rebuild, I sent my drive plate and fourth bearing to George King III, at www.enginerestoration.com. He used the drive plate to get a perfect measurement of the shaft and custom poured the babbit in the fourth bearing. It does not leak. He does great work and even though I am loacated in florida, I have him do all my precision machine work on my Model T engines. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Williams on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 12:26 pm:

OK guys, I used to be a mechanic at the local Ford garage but I'm new to model T's. Can you give me a little more detail about how to get at this area or maybe a schematic?

Here's where I am really ignorant of old cars: Do I remove the driveshaft (torque tube) to get at this?

I have most of the videos from MTFCA and a few manuals but could use more advice to get started here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 12:57 pm:

Best is to again clean up the area of the U-Joint and 4th main. Get all the oil and grease off.

Then re-grease that big grease cup, till you have lots of grease oozing from the rear of the ball cap. If you keep the joint full of grease, it retards flow of engine oil out the 4th main.



Here is what the joint looks like. A single gasket goes between the 4th main babbitt bearing plate and the rear of the block/rear of hogshead.

No gasket goes on the ball cover, that just bolts up against the 4th main plate (red painted thing in this picture).



With lots of grease things should be ok. But then look again for where the oil is coming. Sometimes the inspec cover on the hogshead at the lower rear lets oil out. Sometimes the pedal shafts, but that oil usually goes to the side of the pan and down to the drain on the bottom of the pan.

If you then see oil streaming from the 4th main plate sandwich, then a new gasket is needed, sometimes I cut them in two, and place a new one above if only the upper joint of the rear of the hogshead leaks bad.



Grease dripping good, oil driping bad.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Williams on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 01:27 pm:

Thanks Dan, I'll get to work.
Actually, my car has zerk fittings so it will be easy to put some grease in there.

For right now, the car is very clean.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Orlando Ortega Jr., Portales, New Mexico on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 03:41 pm:

Hey Robbie,

It's good to hear from you. You've been MIA for a couple of weeks since you bought your new trailer. It looks as though you found your car.

Congratulations! We want to see pictures.

Orlando


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 03:42 pm:

It all depends on how much work you want to do. The minimum would be to loosen the rear axle and pull it back to expose the 4th main at the back of the transmission. Then check to be sure the plug is still in place inside the driven shaft at the rear of the transmission (that is the square hole where the U joint slides in) Way inside is a steel plug. You can see it with a flashlight. The light should not be visible inside the transmission if you shine a small flashlight through from the rear. Check the fit of the 4th main. (I couldn't find the correct tolerable clearances for the 4th main but someone will likely post)
There is one gasket between the 4th main and the hogs head/crankshaft. Seal that gasket well. There is no gasket between the 4th main and the ball joint cover. You can seal with gasket sealer, but don't use a gasket here. Then pack the ball joint completely with grease and re install everything.

It might still drip, but would be the minimum drip.

If you don't wish to go to all that work, pack the U joint with a lot of grease, and park with a drip pan under the car. You could even go so far as to put a layer of plastic under the car, to protect the floor, or do as I do, and just let it drip into a drip pan and occasionalyly clean the floor with detergent and hose out. A bit of kitty litter or sand on the floor will absorb oil and can be swept of and disposed of. It will still leave a stain, but you can get the floor reasonably clean.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 04:15 pm:

Robbie, take the 4 bolts off that hold the sleeve around the ball. Pack as much grease around and in that u-joint and the housing as you can by hand.
Put the housing back together. Since you have the grease fitting, take a grease gun and just keep pumping grease into it until it starts oozing out between the sleeve and the ball.
The picture that Dan posted above is a little excessive but closer to normal. You can always wipe off the excess.
Here's a hint. Being a professional auto mechanic is kind of a drawback with these cars. Take 5 steps back away from the car and say to yourself "If I was a farmer, in a field, with nothing but a pocket knife, what would I do" because those are the people Ford designed this car to be fixed by.
Above all, ask questions here first. What may sound like 'stupid' questions to you, are a lot cheaper than the 'stupid' mistakes you can make. These cars are very different than what you're used to. All Model T's are little more than 1909 technology. They are the last "Horseless Carriage". The great guy's here have saved my butt many times.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 05:45 pm:

Robbie,
Here's a write up on installation of the "soft plug" in the tail shaft.
Model t soft plug
Here is a picture of a metal shim some have used in their universal joint housing. I installed this one on my '19 over 5 years back and it alleviated any grease drips from the u-joint area but I doubt it would stop oil. If oil is leaking from the u-joint housing it may be able to travel down the drive shaft area and fill up the differential housing. Been there, done that! :-)
globe shim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls,WI on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 07:26 pm:

This won't fix your car, but purchase one of those plastic pans that fit under your washer and dryer. I know Home Depot has them. Fill with enough kitty litter to catch the oil. Keeps the garage clean.

I also have one under the gas tank even though it doesn't leak.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Williams on Thursday, December 30, 2010 - 11:59 pm:

Hey Dennis, I really am a farmer in a field with nothing but a pocket knife!


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