Installation of wheel hub in front spindle

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Installation of wheel hub in front spindle
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 01:10 pm:

Well, my right respoked wheel hub is packed with grease and ready to mount onto the spindle. Just need to refreshh my memory on the proper installation procedure.

Correct me if I am wrong. The wheel is first, slid onto the spindle and the outer bearing threaded onto the end of the spindle. As the outer bearing is screwed on, the wheel is periodically spun rapidly and that, as soon as there is resistance, and the wheel does not spin as freely, the bearing is backed off slightly, only until the wheel turns freely, then the spindle castle nut is hand tightened against the bearing, the cotter key is installed, then the grease packed hub cap is screwed on? Thank you. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 01:15 pm:

You omitted the keyed washer. Without the keyed washer the castle nut will tighten the bearing.

Also there is no real reason to spin "rapidly", just spin it.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 01:25 pm:

I don't recall there ever being a "keyed washer". Please elaborate. The castle nut is held firm by the cotter key and the LH thread of the passenger side bearing and castle nut will prevent the bearing from tightening as the forward moving wheel turns clockwise. If there were no cotter key, the clockwise turning of the wheel would loosen, not tighten the bearing and castle nut. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 01:32 pm:

Jim,
With the keyed washer you can tighten the castle nut quite tight and this helps to prevent the bearing from tightening when backing the car.

Is there a keyway in your spindle? If so it was for a keyed washer that looks about like this:
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 01:33 pm:

There is a keyed washer Jim. If yours are lost or missing any of the part vendors sell them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 01:45 pm:

It's shown and described fully in the Bible.

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 01:50 pm:

Thanks guys. That is something I will have to order for both sides. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls,WI on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 02:50 pm:

Don't forget to order the front dust caps as well. They go on the wheel before you put the wheel on the spindle. Lang #2841N


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 10:31 pm:

Jim Patrick:

I have lots of the washers you need for your front spindles. If you want I will send you a couple at no charge.

Also there are two kinds of lining for the dust caps on the inside of the the front hubs. One is felt and one is rubber. I like the rubber one best and they can be bought at Napa or other parts houses. Let me know if you want to get the rubber lined one at Napa and I will get the number for you. The felt seals will lay down with very little use and let in all the dirt,water and what ever else. I don't know if the model T venders sell the rubber lined ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 12:28 am:

Dave, can you post the NAPA part #. I am also working on rebuilding my wheels this winter.

Curiosity, as for the Keyed washers, I have two 26 front axles (I have a complete spare driveline/chassis), I tried to install the keyed washer from my spare axle on my driver a yearago. The washer would not fit. Did they make two different sizes? Per the chassis #s, of my driver and my spare drive train, they were originally made about 2 weeks apart. I have noticed a few other differences between the chassis’ such as the drive shaft tube. What’s your thoughts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 02:32 am:

Jason Given:

I also have found some washers that have a larger diameter. I have enough washers that I just grab one that does fit. I don't know why some will not fit.

I will get you a number of the seal to you tomorrow. I have breakfast with a bunch of the guys every Sunday so It probably will not be until noon when I get the number for you. It will be the rubber seal mounted in metal the same as the felt kind.

1916 front hub


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 12:47 pm:

Thank you for the offer, Dave. I agree with you and already purchased the rubber type inner seal from Lang's, to replace the felt one that was on there. I was looking at my spindle trying to analyse the reason for the necessity of the keyed washer and still could not fathom the reason for it, especially in the capacity that was given by Jim Thode.

It seems to me that if it is needed at all, it would be needed as a spacer and not to prevent the tightening of the right spindle outer bearing, in reverse. The reason I feel it is unnecessary for the latter purpose is because, once it is locked into the keyway of the spindle, it revolves at the same rpm as the cotter keyed castle nut, so even with the keyed washer installed, it still revolves with the spindle just as the castle nut does and, instead of the reverse revolving castle nut tightening the bearing, the revolving keyed washer would.

I would be more inclined to think that, in order to prevent the type of scenario in reverse that Jim Thode gave (the bearing tightening as the bearing presses against the counter clockwise revolving castle nut), it would be better to have non-keyed washer that would stop turning, as the bearing moved against it, thereby forming a buffer between the nut and the bearing to prevent it from tightening.

Either way, who am I to try and second guess Henry Ford?! Since this keyed washer was originally engineered into the design, there must be a good reason for it, so, Dave, if your offer still stands, I'd like to take you up on it. Many thanks.

Sincerely

Jim Patrick
1280 S. Swearingen Ave.
Bartow, FL 33830


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims Reed City MI. on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 02:11 pm:

Jim in your last posting,you are a little confused. The spindle does not rotate. The washer has a tab that fits into a keyway and can not revolve. This washer allows the nut to tighten against the bearing and not try to further tighten the bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 02:53 pm:

The keyed washer is necessary to prevent the lock nut from disturbing the adjustment of the outer cone. The lock nut should be set TIGHT to lock the outer cone in place to prevent the outer cone from rotating out of adjustment. When you tighten up the lock nut you will be pushing the outer cone deeper into the hub as you take up the thread play between the outer cone inner race and the spindle. When you get to the point where you are ready to install the cotter pins, if you did it right, you will either have a slot in your lock nut line up with the hole in the spindle or you will be between slots where one slot gives a little drag and the other feels a little loose. If the bearings are new you can run them tighter than used bearings. When you are done, if there is any play in the bearings, they are too loose. This is the same set up as used on heavy trucks, both front and rear, for the last 60 years at least, and I've done hundreds of them without a failure. It seems less expierenced people tend to run Timken bearings a little on the loose side and don't
dare put on any preload. Setting bearings too loose can cause the cups to move around in the hub and ruin it. It can also cause the cones to move on the spindle ruin it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 03:28 pm:

Jim P.
When compared to more modern wheel bearings, the fact that the Model T race is threaded onto the spindle makes a huge difference. An untold number of hubs have need damaged or rendered useless because a bearing has over tightened when backing the car. Everything you can do to prevent this from happening must be done. This includes a well lubricated bearing in good condition, a properly adjusted bearing and a tight castle nut. Modern wheel bearings (without threaded races) cannot be tightened as a Model T can be.

In my mind the threaded bearing race is a design defect and we need to do everything we can to work with it. There is always the option of installing a threaded sleeve and then install a non-threaded bearing race. This eliminates most of the problem.

Probably the easiest way to see what happens with or without the keyed washer is to install the bearing on the spindle without the hub, then try to tighten the castle nut against the bearing and see what happens.

Here is what can happen if everything is not correct. The crack in the bearing cup is equal to the amount that the the hub has been permanently deformed and the circular groove in the center part indicates how much the bearing has over tightened.
Jim T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 04:06 pm:

Thank you Jim Sims for catching that. I wasn't thinking. Perhaps I should have said the the bearing turns against the inside surface of the stationary nut without the keyed washer, just as it turns against the inside surface of the stationary keyed washer, when installed. Both could tighten the right side outer bearing when travelling in reverse, especially if the nut (or washer) were tightened tight against the bearing until there is resistance. That is why I have alway tightened the castle nut until there is resistance on the spinning wheel and then I back off the nut slightly.

What do you think of the idea of a keyless grade 8 washer in place of the keyed washer so that the washer provides the space it was designed to provide while preventing the stationary castle nut from coming in contact with the revolving bearing to tighten it? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 05:23 pm:

Jim, reread Jim Thode's and Randy Driscoll's posts. The keyed washer HAS to be installed or you can't tighten the lock nut without disturbing the threaded cone. DO NOT use a keyless washer. The key keeps the nut and cone from turning on the spindle. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 07:39 am:

Randy, from what you describe, it appears that the keyed washer is for use strictly as a spacer to ensure that the cotter key hole lines up with one of the grooves on the castle nut, once the proper tightness has been acheived. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JAMES STARKEY on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 10:39 am:

Just to remind you Jim,
Beside you understanding the mandatory use of the key tab washer do not miss a point at the very beginning of this thread that Jim Thode made about the term you used: 'spinning freely'. I know you meant to say back off on the nut (not the bearing) but the point about how much you back off is very important. It's hard to describe in writing the 'FEEL' of a wheel spindle nut that is tightened just right but it should have in my opinion, a barely perceptible touch of 'DRAG'. It really takes some experience to know exactly how it should feel. This is a wheel bearing UNIVERSAL and normally apply to any wheel bearings from motorcycle wheels to old Airplanes.

I guess the best way is to have somebody with experience show you the correct feel. Describing it in writing to someone is like trying to describe how the key of 'C' sounds on a piano.

Too tight will heat up/burn them out eventually , too loose will cause wheel shimmy and damage to race and bearing and tires. Bearings that are slightly off adjustment will still perform fine but the bearing's longevity can be increased dramatically by having the correct tension and checking it once and a while. Jimmy

Below is a basic article on BEARING PRE-LOAD. This article was written regarding the installation of a modern trailer wheel but again all the same UNIVERSAL rules apply and little has changed in 100 years. check it out.

D: PRE-LOAD BEARINGS

At this point you are ready to pre-load the bearings. Whenever you install new hubs onto an axle, or whenever you install new bearings and races into existing hubs, you should pre-load the bearings. Pre-loading the bearings assures that the races in the hub are 100% in place against their machined stop points and keeps the hub from wobbling after a few miles.

To pre-load the bearings, install the spindle washer and spindle nut onto the spindle with the hub and bearings in place. Tighten the spindle nut finger tight (until snug) and then with channel-lock pliers or a crescent wrench, tighten the spindle nut another 1/4 turn or about 15 to 20 ft pounds of torque. Now turn the hub five to ten revolutions. This will fully seat the races. Now loosen the spindle nut very loose, then re-snug to finger tight, and engage the nut retaining device. (Some reverse lubricating spindles use a tab washer for the retaining device)

After 20 to 40 miles of highway travel, check to see if the hub is loose on the spindle. Pull the tire in and out a few times. If your hub is loose, you will need to re-snug the spindle nut and re-engage the nut retaining cotter pin or tab washer. NOTE: Never reuse the same tab on the tab washer. They are designed to be used one time only).
Never run your spindle nut to tight, this will cause your bearings to over heat. And never run your bearings too loose. A very slightly loose spindle nut will run adequately, but too loose and the individual rollers may come apart in the bearings, causing the hub to fracture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 11:36 am:

Thank you James. Very good advice. I suppose that as Randy points out, with the keyed spacer washer installed and a very slight, almost imperceptible drag on the spinning wheel, the correct amount of tightness should be acheived if the spindle cotter key hole is lined up with castle nut groove. Thanks again. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By scott conger on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 12:17 pm:

James Starkey

very good description of loading and adjusting bearings, but one point about the tab washer is probably not pertinent to Model "T"s, in that the tab on the washer is not used to lock the nut, it fits into the spindle groove and only acts to keep washer from rotating, thus allowing the castle nut to truely Jam the bearing.

A point not covered in James' description is that when the castle nut is tightened, it will unload the bearing threads and force them "to the other side" of their thread clearance, and you may find the bearing is now actually too tight upon first tightening of the castle nut. You want the "feel" that James described AFTER the castle nut is tightened.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, CO on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 02:06 pm:

Jason Given:

Sorry it took me so long to answer your post above.

The napa inner seal number for the seal with rubber is National Oil Seal 204002.

Federal-Mogul sells a felt lined seal 5727. One of the venders was selling this one.

There is a C/R 17608 that is felt.

Side Bar; I took off a front wheel from my CD the other day to work on the speedomter drive gear. I have 40,000 miles on the car. The rubber seal look as good as the day I put it in 30 or so years ago. It is still holding the grease in and the dirt out. I very much doubt that a felt seal would last that long. It looked so good I put it back in.

A444


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 02:39 pm:

Jim,

" That is why I have alway tightened the castle nut until there is resistance on the spinning wheel and then I back off the nut slightly. "

NO, wrong. Whether you're using the washer or not, (and you should be!), simply backing off the nut will allow the bearing to float loose. That is bad. If the bearing is too tight then, back off the castle nut, then back off the bearing, then retighten the casle nut.

"What do you think of the idea of a keyless grade 8 washer in place of the keyed washer so that the washer provides the space it was designed to provide while preventing the stationary castle nut from coming in contact with the revolving bearing to tighten it? "

Jim, the bearing does not turn. The purpose of the washer is not to provide spacing and it is not to keep the nut from touching the bearing. As several people have explained, the keyed washer allows you to tighten the castle nut without also further tightening the bearing. In other words, it isolates the rotation of the castle nut so that it can't also make the bearing turn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 02:49 pm:

Thank you Jerry. Very helpful. Now I get it! Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 02:54 pm:

Happy touring Jim!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 03:24 pm:

The only way to keep the bearing from turning on the spindle is the keyed washer. Even if you tighten the castle nut very tightly against the bearing, or use a locking washer, the bearing and nut will turn together on the spindle. This is especially true if the grease runs dry, or the bearing is too tight and you back up. The locking washer will keep the nut and bearing from turning if it is kept tight with the cotter pin installed. If the bearing is too tight, loosen the castle nut and then loosen the bearing just a fraction of a turn and tighten the castle nut again. Then install the cotter pin.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 04:20 pm:

The more you guys post, the more clear it becomes that the keyed washer really acts the same as two nuts tightened together, locking the nuts in place, so they CAN'T move. Incredibly valuable thread for me. Thanks again. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 12:16 am:

The bearing can be prevented from rotating on the spindle by jamming the castle nut against the threaded inner race. If this is done, then it is difficult to set the correct bearing clearance or preload and still line up the cotter key hole. On one hub on my 24 touring there is not sufficent length to install the washer in the sandwich. Cups are seated correctly and parts appear to be all correct. You need a thin wrench to hold the bearing in place when the nut is jammed against it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By scott conger on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 06:15 am:

Ted

there's a thin, hardened washer made for your situation. You really need to use it. I'd be inclined to make the notch(s) in the castle nut deeper and use the thin washer before I would assemble without it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 08:12 am:

Jim,
Watch out for binding when you set the bearing clearance. I screw the race in by hand until there is just a little bit of play when you wobble the wheel. However, when you tension up the nut against the washer, the looseness in the thread and the lack of tension on the washer will be taken up and you need to check clearances again. Often the wobble you need has disappeared and the bearings will be binding. Simply back it off again and start with a greater wobble, re-tension again and check again. If the ideal clearance occurs with the nut over the split pin holes, You need to back it off to the previous hole rather than tighten it to the next. It is better to have a little play than binding, which will cause excessive heat and premature wear in the bearings.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 08:43 am:

Is there a thin wrench available that will fit between the bearing and keyed washer that will allow one to hold the bearing in place while tightening the castle nut?

On second thought, I suppose, since the washer does not turn, there is no reason for holding the bearing in place. Does the tightening, or binding of the bearing occur as the back surface of the bearing threads tighten against the front surface of the spindle threads, as it is pushed back by the keyed washer during the tightening process? Thanks again. This has really been enlightening. My front wheels have been incorrect for 40 years. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 09:54 am:

Jim

There is no special wrench in the Ford tools for this job. The adj wrench is used, but I too find it too thick, so I have for years used this old thin wrench (1 1/16" size) to tighten the threaded outer taper bearing. Works well.

The advise in this post from others is the way to adjust the front bearings, have done this method all the time.





One thing for sure, always used the threaded Model T bearing, never the non-thread Model A type.

Note the wear on the inner and outer surfaces of the non-threaded bearing. Excess slop causing this wear on the surface, meaning bearing loosened, tending to create shimmy in the Ford. And the loose Model A bearing can wreck the threads on the Model T spindle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Martel - Cherry Valley IL on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 01:37 pm:

Someone showed me these when I was putting my wheels together, now I use them all the time.

IMO the easiest tool made for adjusting Ford Front Wheel Bearings is the later style stamped steel Hub and Hubcap wrench with the little tabs on the oval shaped hole.

See it in the center of this picture (borrowed from a previous thread. Thanks Howard Tobias)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 02:06 pm:

That's what I use as well, Chuck. However, mine is just a flat hole rather than being extruded.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 04:17 pm:

Those little tabs are for adjusting the front wheel bearings on wire wheel hubs - the earlier style hubcap wrench is flat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Thursday, February 10, 2011 - 06:43 am:

Jim, You have to back the nut off to adjust the bearing, and once you have done this the bearing can be turned with your fingers. To use the Ford wrench, you would have to remove the nut to get the wrench onto the flats on the bearing. Just unscrew it enough to get your fingers into play.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Thursday, February 10, 2011 - 06:49 am:

Jim,
I forgot to mention, when tightening the nut, the captive washer will prevent the bearing from turning.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Thursday, February 10, 2011 - 07:28 am:

Gidday Allan. Thank you. It took me awhile, but I now see the importance of the keyed washer, as it was designed, in locking the outer bearing in place so it cannot move. I'm grateful for the patience everyone exhibited, until it finally sunk into my thick skull. Sometimes I get an idea in my head on how I think something should be, or how I have always perceived it to be and completely ignore how it is, or how it needs to be. Thanks again to everyone for helping me to see. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 01:45 pm:

Dave Huson.

Thank you very much for the various sized keyed washers. They arrived yesterday and hopefully, will see another 85 years of useful life.

Thanks again.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Wednesday, February 16, 2011 - 02:39 pm:

Okay, I just came from the storage building where I parked my Model T here at work back in December, when I discovered the loose spokes. I got the keyed washers installed on both wheels and adjusted the outer bearings until the nuts locked the bearings tight and the wheels spun free. without having any back and forth play on the spindles. As everyone suggested, the cotter key holes lined up perfectly with the castle nuts when I got the adjustment correct. Now I am ready to drive 'er home. Thanks again everyone and thanks again Dave, for the keyed washers. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, February 16, 2011 - 03:31 pm:

There are only two ways to keep the outer bearing from turning on the spindle while tightening up the castle nut. One would be to use a very thin wrench on the outer bearing while tightening the castle nut with another wrench. Then the cotter pin would keep both from turning while the car is going forward. Only the tightness of the castle nut acting as a jam nut would hold the bearing race from rotating while backing up. By using the washer with the tab, you don't need any wrench to hold the bearing race while tightening the castle nut. You can get the nut very tight and thereby holding the race as a jam nut. The cotter pin also holds the outer castle nut. The bottom line is that it is easier and less likely to cause problems when you use the tabbed washer.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Wednesday, February 16, 2011 - 03:54 pm:

If you've ever used the spindle bolt bushing face reamer that is sold by the suppliers, there is a key and spacer that keep the rotating cutter shaft from tightening the nut that the whole sh'bang is loaded with. Same principle.


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