1908-09 Vertical Crankhandle

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: 1908-09 Vertical Crankhandle
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Saturday, February 19, 2011 - 07:31 pm:

When was the ratchet arrangement that kept the crankhandle vertical dropped from the first 'T's? Dave C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, February 19, 2011 - 09:02 pm:

About serial number 2500.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob trevan on Saturday, February 19, 2011 - 09:55 pm:

CORRECT ROYCE


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Sunday, February 20, 2011 - 04:56 pm:

Do we have anything more accurate? For example we know the first water pump was at #2448 and not #2500. Dave C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Sunday, February 20, 2011 - 05:15 pm:

That's interesting. Anybody want to age this speedster? I'm not sure if I'm seeing 2 levers and 2 pedals or if it's just a shadow in the photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Sunday, February 20, 2011 - 05:41 pm:

Early '13
Narrow rear crossmember, black and brass head lamp, short neck on brass radiator, long steering column and thin spokes on the wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker - Sumter, SC on Sunday, February 20, 2011 - 09:21 pm:

David,

You asked if we have anything more accurate, than Royce’s “About serial number 2500” for when the crank ratchet/mechanism changed. I believe Royce’s answer is about as accurate as we currently know. We can provide more detailed information but not really more accurate information. Please see Trent Boggess’ article “The Model T Crank Ratchet and How it Changed” at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/ratchets.htm

The summary of that article is that when Ford USA redesigned the water-pump engine late in 1908 to remove the water-pump they also removed the fan that was driven from the camshaft. The new fan was driven by a belt off the crankshaft. That required a new pulley to be added to the crankshaft and when Ford did that, they redesigned the crank ratchet to work with the new crankshaft pulley. So the old style crankshaft ratchet would not work on the Thermo-syphon engines and the new style crankshaft pulley and ratchet would not work on the old style water-pump engines. Why the term “around 2500?” First that is very similar to the terminology Ford used. Below is a copy of the Ford USA Price List of Parts dated Feb 1, 1915 (reprint available from the vendors – PolyPrint T-5 and also on Bruce’s “Comprehensive Model T Encyclopedia” that has virtually all the USA Price List of Parts lists included and formatted in a way you can see how they compare). Note the 1915 Price List of Parts uses the phrase “Order the Following Parts for Cars Numbering Below 2500” Prior to the Dec 1, 1911 “Price List of Parts” I spot checked a few price list and they didn’t mention Below 2500 but rather Themo-syphon and Pump engine parts. Starting with the Dec 1, 1911 “Price List of Parts” the phrase “Cars Numbering Below 2500” appears – indicating it is for the water-pump engine.



I believe that Ford USA ordered several items in quanities of 2500 for use in building the initial Model Ts. In some cases the parts continued to be made like the first parts. But in other cases such as the engine block – the casting, fan, head, etc. were redesigned.

And like so many other changes that Ford did, there was clearly some overlap when both the old style water-pump engines and the new style thermo-syphon engines were being produced/used. There was not an assembly line back then and cars were assembled in batches of four or so by a team of workers. There were several teams working on their four car at the same time other teams were working on their four cars. Which is one the reasons cars would be completed out of serial number order (along with the engines were not necessarily first in and first out of the engine room. You noted that car number (which also matched the engine number back then) #2,448 was the first thermo-syphon engine shipped Apr 22, 1909 (ref the shipping documents – a partial listing is printed in Bruce’s book page 480 as well as his CD). But the engines that were before and after it were still the water-pump engines – that one had the new style but was stamped when it was completed. Note the following:

2,455 May 1, 1909 2nd Thermo-syphon engine
2,456 May 5, 1909 3rd Thermo-syphon engine
But on May 4 2,478; 2,493; 2,494 to 2498 all engines not cars; 2,499; 2500; 2,501; 2,518 were shipped and 2,541 was shipped the day before on May 3. There is a note with 2500 – that indicates it probably was a Thermo-syphon engine. But I believe several of those other engines shipped on May 3 & 4 would have been water-pump engines. Which ones? I don’t think we can tell just by saying the serial number is higher than 2500 – what about 2501? We probably do not know for sure. In some cases Ford recorded when a new design started and when the last of the old design was produced. But the records that I am familiar with do not tell us specifically state which engines very close to the 2500 number were water-pump and which were not. In the case of the first, second, and third, thermo-syphon engine it was annotated. But when was the fourth one – 2500 or perhaps 2499? The shipping documents for those cars are available – but I do not know if they clearly state what type of engine (water-pump or thermo-syphon) was used. We do know that Ford said state the serial number of the car when ordering parts so they could make sure they provided the correct parts.

If you have a particular car in mind, ordering the shipping document for that car might help clarify which type was used. And of course a car 75 lower than 2500 would most likely be a water pump engine while a car 75 higher would most likely be a thermo siphon engine. But we or at least I do not know exactly which ones were what type. And lest we forget that Ford sometimes used up older parts – notice that on Jul 20 1909, Ford Shipped four Model S cars – and those had not be in standard production for some time (ref page 482 Bruce’s book).

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, February 20, 2011 - 09:34 pm:

There were countless aftermarket accessories for the Model T, many of which served no good use. The car above seems to have an accessory crank holder that keeps the crank upright.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker - Sumter, SC on Sunday, February 20, 2011 - 10:00 pm:

Note, while the early 1909 water pump engines had the crank ratchet that allowed the hand crank to be stored vertically that by itself, the position of the crank handle, does not make the car a water pump or a non-water pump engined car. For example in the photo from around Dec 31, 1908 Grand Central Palace where the “new” Model Ts were displayed (I had a copy located – but I can’t find it at the moment). The first car a Laundalet has the crank handle down and the second car a mother-in-law roadster has the crank handle up. If all we had to go on was the crank handle we would be hard pressed to know what to say about the cars. But because we know when (and in this case also where) the photo was taken we know they are both water pump two lever two pedal Model Ts.

Note Frank Harris’ number 22 speedster has a minor modification to keep the crank vertical see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/135173.html and scroll down to his blue speedster.

But in the photo that is show above, we also see the two piece spindles that were introduced during 1911. We do NOT see the rivets that would have held the fish plates to the sides of the frame on the first 2500 or so Model Ts (ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#Chassis1 ). And if you look at the photo you can clearly see the water inlet on the left side of the engine with the water pipe running to the radiator. The water-pump engines did NOT have that inlet on the side of the block as show in the photo below (courtesy of Dave Dryden).



Using the shadows from the emergency brake lever and if there is a second lever is one way to determine how many levers are there. We used that method for a poorly reproduced newspaper photo and could clearly see the shadow of the second lever. Note the emergency brake has a second small rod that moves the pawl up and down which will also cast a shadow but not as large as the handles. In this case it looks like a single emergency brake lever to me.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Sunday, February 20, 2011 - 10:17 pm:

Thanks Hap. You have explained the reason for the change, makes logical sense. Dave C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 11:30 am:

Maybe that chassis is a '12. Look at the front axle and the steering column.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 01:09 pm:

Thanks fellas. I like that old photo and was curious about the year. I have enough trouble determining the year of brass cars but when you take off the body and fenders, I'm lost. I knoticed the black headlight shell but I thought it was possible that car could have been made up from a pile of parts behind the local garage. Thanks again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 02:32 pm:

Nearly every part of a pre - 2500 chassis is different from the car in the photograph. Here is the early crank ratchet.


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