I'm new to the T world. A few minutes ago l looked at the pictures of Jim Patrick's engine. Good god, man! How nice is that... And, no water pump! Jabbo also has no pump on his roadster. My '26 has one and it had the horn mounted in some half-a** manner onto the pump housing. The horn is now off as I contemplate a better place to put it. My car will still overheat if l idle too long after a road trip. So, is the pump of any benefit? Should I bag it and mount the horn where it's supposed to be. Of course, l lack the the water outlet casting that would go on the block, but... anyhow.

Dave, this topic is a very hot one. My individual feeling is the pump was not a factory item. The car should work well without it. If the radiator is poor then the pump can help increase cooling. Sounds like you may have a poorly functioning radiator. Waterpump is another source of mechanical failure. Some guys love them. Some feel they are of the devil.

Factory original = no pump and that is important to some folks. Thermo-barf cooling works great if the radiator is in good condition. Most radiators are at some point along the scale of perfect - useless. Each car will thus have more or less symptoms of poor cooling under more or less load situations (hot day, parade, hill climbing, etc.) Make sense?

Now, what kind of oil are you using in the engine?

Water pumps are not useless!

The accesory Model T water pump makes a fairly good wheel chock. They are better as trout line weights though. Also can be used to anchor lobster pots if you have enough of them.

Most important is a decent radiator. Most will tell you water pumps are junk. To an extent I agree. I have discovered one pump that works well, though. Brand name is Climax. Can't say why its better but I was able to run two cars with marginal radiators with Climax pumps. I've seen the same pump under the name Impeller.

lm running 15w-40 oil at this time. My temp is usually very good, but lf l pull over after a lengthly run and let her idle for 10 minutes, the temp does shoot up and she starts to spew her stew.

Dave, sounds like your radiator may be functioning at a very low level as Lizzy should not boil over like that while sitting. Is your fan spinning as it should?

Sorry, I did bate you about the oil as that is also a very hot subject. As long as we are there, I like 5w-30, but will add 10w-40 if it is all I have and Liz needs a top up.

I like water pumps as an interesting period accessory and have even rebuilt one as a fun project. My best friend runs one on his T. I choose not to. I also have a great radiator and have never overheated.

Also, How are you measuring coolant temp?

Dave, also, a water inlet elbow casting is easy to come by. I may have one, not sure.

Does your pump leak at all yet?

Dave, don't let Erich get you started on oil, too. Waterpumps, type of oil, and distributors vs. coils are the hot buttons of lots of members and are responsible for the most heated discussions. As previously stated, Model T's with good radiators don't need water pumps. They may even restrict the flow of water, which "may" be why you overheat at an idle. I might suggest you put half a cup of powder dishwasher detergent with plain water, not antifreeze, in the T and go for a moderate drive. Then drain the system and flush it well. You might consider backflushing it through the lower outlet. Also flush the engine. Maybe you won't need a pump or anything else. You might have an original round tube radiator that has loose fins on the tubes, an aftermarket one that had less cooling capacity, a honeycomb aftermarket one that, I understand, plugged easily, or a flat tube high capacity radiator that works very well. New radiators run $700 plus but are sometimes the only answer. I'm running a new one on my 26 Coupe, and a good used flat tube on the 23 Touring. The casting that you are missing is easily available. If you cannot find one, I may have a few old blocks I could steal one off of.
BTW, you have a very pretty touring on your profile!

"If I pull over after a lengthly run and let her idle for 10 minutes, the temp does shoot up and she starts to spew her stew."

Dave -- Most Model T's will do that. The radiator needs for air to be moving through it in order to cool the engine. The little fan on Model T engines is not sufficient to move enough air. After a lengthy run, don't sit and let it idle for 10 minutes. Simple!

Neil has it right. A good flat tube radiator is all you need. WP's are a constant source of leaks, fan belt troubles and of little use. My 27 coupe has been to the top of Lookout Mtn without a WP and did not heat. My 26 was driven from Knoxville to the Centenial in IN and back again without a WP with no heating problems.

Agree with Noel, I hope I was clear about the oil being one of the touchy topics here. Noel also has some great ideas to try and improve your cooling system. I hope it helps your T.

Let us know.

I forgot to also say, Welcome to the T world, as you put it, and I hope you have a fantastic season with your T. Many here who know more T info than I ever will. Ask any T question you wish. You will get answers.

Dave, When you are at idle, especially for long periods, you may still want to advance the spark lever somewhat. My '19 Touring will idle all day long with the spark lever half way advanced and never boil over. With the spark retarded it quickly starts to overheat.

Dave,

That's a mighty fine looking touring.
Take a look at my profile.


Welcome aboard.

Larry

Where is your spark lever when you idle. If you idle with the spark retarded, it will get hot with the best of radiators. The exhaust manifold can get red hot under this condition. Maybe advancing the spark will solve your problem.

If you have a good radiator and a working fan you do not need a water pump. If you modify the engine to increase power to as much as 80 or more horsepower you either must enlarge the radiator or add a water pump. It's that simple.

If an engine is overheating the possible causes includes some operator errors. This is from the T operators manual:

Apparently the T water pump has one main use: it opens cans of worms quite easily. Had 1 on the '27. Came on the car. Slight belt problem at first then OK. Had none on the '23. It was OK too. Both cooling systems were good/clean.

The idea of not retarding the spark at idle is a very good point. I have gotten into the "good" habit of retarding every time I shut her off. I will try idling with more advance. I have dumped the radiator and pulled the head to scrape out carbon, look at things and shake all the rust gremlins out of passages. I didn't flush the rad, so the dishwasher powder suggestion is going high on my list too.

By the way, the only reason l let it idle for 10 minutes was that my wife "just ran in to get something". Shut it off is good advice, too. Thanks all

Larry,

CopyCat!!! Damn nice car. Where's your side mirrors?

Wheather yes or no when one speaks of over 100 years and over 15,000 000 could all of them been perfectly cool?? Bud.

Its your car do as you wish with it.
Rick

Dave,

While you are looking at things, try turning your fuel-air mixture control on the carb a bit more counter-clockwise. That will make it richer. I found on my car if I am too lean, it will heat up. Found this out by playing with the control while driving on a tour. Twisted it clockwise a quarter to a half turn and the motometer shot up to the upper part of the circle - too hot. Twisted it the other way a quarter to a half turn and the gauge dropped to the lower side of the circle within minutes. General opinion is the "normal" setting should be from 1-1/4 t 1-1/2 turns open. Some cars need more for starting, some don't.

You might also want to check your head and block water passages for rusty scale that is slowing the travel of the coolant.

One last thing. you may be over-filling your radiator. One way to check is to see if the car continues to spit water after it reaches "it's desired level." I did this when I first started driving my car and was worried until I found out this secret.

Thanks Dave.
I put a side mirror on the drivers side since that picture was taken last summer.
I had just put the wheels and tires on when that picture was taken. Changed out the 21" wood wheels I had had on her for the last 30 yrs.
I like the look of the wires and really liked the color! Some folks might think it's too much like a Model A but I like the look.

The old '27 T is going to be the closest thing to a Model L Lincoln I'll ever own so I thought I would spruce it up a bit.

As to the heating. I think you have some good advice here. I would also do a keyword search on the forum for rad flush or something like that.
I know the guys have mentioned using vinegar as a flush for radiators.

That may be the ticket. I would try it and see. Are you running a motometer?
That might be a good investment and after flushing pull the water pump and see how she does.

Good luck.
Larry

(ATTENTION ALL WATER PUMP HATERS)
(FOR PROPER DISPOSAL OF THESE UNITS)
Please send “all unwanted after market Model T water pumps”
To:
Steve McClelland
2109 Kyker Bonner Ave, NW
Cleveland, TN. 37311
{;^O

Tom,
I have seen and agree with your experience of too lean will cause the engine to run hot. I kind if wonder where the owners manual came up with too rich as a cause for overheating. Maybe a typo??

Jim

Never thought of relating motometer temp with various carb settings. I was always tought to adjust the carb by turning rich till rough running, back lean till rough running, then the sweet spot between is the best running setting. I always set the carb thus, and have a very cool running motometer, and well running engine.

The carb adjustment and spark lever were there for a good reason. The challenge is to find the optimal settings for all operating situations. Part of the fun is figuring this all out.

Light aircraft carbs go richer at full throttle to use extra fuel for cooling..

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Smart guy, Steve Mc. I run a 180 thermostat, and to be sure it does the job of keeping the engine at best temperature, I run a waterpump, too.

rdr

I run one as well Rick biggest reason is for those hot summer days in traffic, keeps everything cool.... always glad to help a fellow T'er get rid of unwanted parts.....=)

Dave: Read up in the thread that you pulled head and cleaned out the block. Did you put the head gasket on right? There is a right and wrong way. Wrong will make them run hot. Thanks, Dan.

model ts work with or without water pumps, as a youngster i remember our T overheating when going through back woods hills of oregon, you didnt go to fast and were using the engine alot, that was without the pump, i rebuilt the pump i had, put it on there and the car hasnt boiled over yet.

if you are driving at a consistent speed on flat fairly ground without a pump your car wont get very hot, start going into hilly areas and you will get hot.

not to mention, the summers here are regularly 100 degrees so it all depends, i personaly like the added assurance of having a water pump,

water pumps are not complicated! its two bushings and a packing! packings arent rocket science either, keep the shaft smooth and the packing well tightened and she wont leak, or give you trouble.

that aside, not all water pumps are created equal, the style reproduced and sold by macs and snyders has a large impeller and keeps the the engine cool, some water pumps have small impellers and do no more than stir the water some. thus worthless.

model ts work with or without water pumps, as a youngster i remember our T overheating when going through back woods hills of oregon, you didnt go to fast and were using the engine alot, that was without the pump, i rebuilt the pump i had, put it on there and the car hasnt boiled over yet.

if you are driving at a consistent speed on flat fairly ground without a pump your car wont get very hot, start going into hilly areas and you will get hot.

not to mention, the summers here are regularly 100 degrees so it all depends, i personaly like the added assurance of having a water pump,

water pumps are not complicated! its two bushings and a packing! packings arent rocket science either, keep the shaft smooth and the packing well tightened and she wont leak, or give you trouble.

that aside, not all water pumps are created equal, the style reproduced and sold by macs and snyders has a large impeller and keeps the the engine cool, some water pumps have small impellers and do no more than stir the water some. thus worthless.

that being said, you can get by without a water pump just fine. the model t wasnt designed without a pump because it didnt need one, its because it was cheaper, and you didnt absolutely need one,

thats why since the begining of model t production there have been water pumps made, because even when new there cooling system didnt work to well in less than ideal conditions.

Hmm, Matthew, I see you were in Oregon when a youngster, and now living in Fallbrook. I'm an Oregon escapee, too; born and raised there. Graduated from HS in Springfield in 1958, and left for SoCalif and hardly looked back. Coilman went to HS a few years later a ways down and across the Willamette. He grew up with Ts; I didn't.

As for waterpumps, suit yourself, but I believe a thermostat is essential for best economy, performance and durability of any engine, including the T.

rdr

Just my 2 cents but when you have the head off its always a good idea to clean out those engine water jacket passages. I believe it takes a 1/4 inch drill bit as best as I can remember. The last time I did it was a few years ago on my 1919 roadster. At the time it just seemed like they should have been bigger than about an 1/8 inch and to my surprise they were 1/4 inch. The cleaning out of those water passage holes did help as far as cooling goes. It will run cooler now.

a thermostat in conjuction with a water pump would be a good idea, i cant imagine one doing much good without one, like you say suit yourself, ive run with a waterpump and without, this summer i may try running without one just for the heck of it.

A thermostat in conjunction with a water pump is a good way to reduce reliability with no improvement to anything. Fix the bad radiator if you need to.

A water pump or thermostat will waste money and cause a future breakdown.

the reason you run a thermostat with a water pump is that the engine will run cool really well and you want it come up to temp so it temporarily blocks the pump, most every car from the 30s on has a water pump and a thermostat,

ive never had a problem with either a thermostat or my water pump, which makes me scratch my head head cuz so many others have.

i do lots of work with steam traction engines, these machines have hundreds of packings and mechanical devices on them, these engines can NEVER break down, if i can do that with a steam engine that is 115 years old than you can certainly make a water pump work.

Hey Ricks, I graduated from Pleasant Hill.

O.K. We know many non T cars came with water pumps, but what year did the thermostat come out?

Did some early cars have any other way to regulate water flow for optimal thermal performance prior to thermostats?

Aircooled Franklins from at least 1930 had thermostats that operated shutters on the hood front, and it may have been much earlier. I once worked on a 1948 Rolls that had a water thermostat that operated hood shutters, too.

From www.wikipedia.org :

Perhaps the best example of purely mechanical technology in widespread use today is the internal combustion engine cooling thermostat. These are used to maintain the core temperature of the engine at its optimum operating temperature by regulating the flow of coolant to an external heat sink, usually an air cooled radiator. Also, research in the 1920s showed that cylinder wear was aggravated by condensation of fuel when it contacted a cool cylinder wall which removed the oil film, and the development of the automatic thermostat in the 1930s provided a solution to this problem by ensuring fast engine warm-up.[3]

This type of thermostat operates mechanically. It makes use of a wax pellet inside a sealed chamber. The wax is solid at low temperatures but as the engine heats up the wax melts and expands. The sealed chamber has an expansion provision that operates a rod which opens a valve when the operating temperature is exceeded. The operating temperature is fixed, but is determined by the specific composition of the wax, so thermostats of this type are available to maintain different temperatures, typically in the range of 70 to 90°C (160 to 200°F). Modern engines run hot, that is, over 80°C (180°F), in order to run more efficiently and to reduce the emission of pollutants. Most thermostats have a small bypass hole to vent any gas that might get into the system, e.g., air introduced during coolant replacement, which also allows a small flow of coolant past the thermostat when it is closed. This bypass flow ensures that the thermostat experiences the temperature change in the coolant as the engine heats up; without it a stagnant region of coolant around the thermostat could shield it from temperature changes in the coolant adjacent to the combustion chambers and cylinder bores.

While the thermostat is closed, there is no flow of coolant in the radiator loop, and water flow is instead redirected back through the engine, allowing it to warm up rapidly while also avoiding hotspots within the engine. The thermostat stays closed until the coolant temperature reaches the nominal thermostat opening temperature. The thermostat then progressively opens as the coolant temperature increases to the optimum operating temperature, increasing the coolant flow to the radiator. Once the optimum operating temperature is reached, the thermostat progressively increases or decreases its opening in response to temperature changes, dynamically balancing the coolant recirculation flow and coolant flow to the radiator to maintain the engine temperature in the optimum range as engine heat output, vehicle speed, and outside ambient temperature change. Under normal operating conditions the thermostat is open to about half of its stroke travel, so that it can open further or reduce its opening to react to changes in operating conditions. A correctly designed thermostat will never be fully open or fully closed while the engine is operating normally, or overheating or overcooling would occur. For instance,

If more cooling is required, e.g., in response to an increase in engine heat output which causes the coolant temperature to rise, the thermostat will increase its opening to allow more coolant to flow through the radiator and increase engine cooling. If the thermostat were already fully open, then it would not be able to increase the flow of coolant to the radiator, hence there would be no more cooling capacity available, and the increase in heat output by the engine would result in overheating.
If less cooling is required, e.g., in response to decrease in ambient temperature which causes the coolant temperature to fall, the thermostat will decrease its opening to restrict the coolant flow through the radiator and reduce engine cooling. If the thermostat were already fully closed, then it would not be able to reduce cooling in response to the fall in coolant temperature, and the engine temperature would fall below the optimum operating range.
----------



Want efficiency? Put in a thermostat.

rdr

I have read in one of the many pubs about the T that dealers were asked to install waterpumps in 26 when Ford went to a two row radiator as a cost saver, the two row was just not enough fin surface and a pump probably didn't help but was a feel better item.just my opinion.
Rick

One good thing about water pumps is for coolant manufacturers and sellers. If you use coolant other than water, it will be much more likely to leak out and so the coolant companies will make money on you. However, the environmentalists will hate you because the coolant is poisonous to small animals. Big ones too if they ingest enough of it.
Norm

Dave,
let me say welcome to the forum and sorry you had to find out the hard way that water pumps (Be aware: distributors also)are two of the most controversial topics out there. I didn't read all the postings but so far it looks like no blood was drawn this time. I asked both these questions some time ago and the threads combined could reach across our county. It was all valid information but in the end I discovered there was a pretty clear division and that either route you decide to go will get about 50% agreement so you can't lose! I also learned something else early on from this fine group, 'Just because an 'improvement device' is offered in one of the T supplier catalogs, doesn't mean it's a good idea'. When I was in high school I remember J.C Whitney had some Do-Dad you added to any carburetor's fuel line and it was supposed to allow you to run on a mix of gas & water! It was removed by the next catalog printing and I don't think it was because of some Men in Black. ;-)

PS. Now I have to add my own 2 cents or it wouldn't be fair so here goes, If you're a real purist, stick with how Henry made it, even the horn position (it's all gonna work fine).If you feel improvements are more important than originality you might try it. After all a water pump comes off about as easy as it goes on if you don't like it. When I made my decision regarding water pumps I finally let one particular senior forum members comment help me decide, he had run dozens of T's both ways and for his particular style of driving he found no benefit. Jimmy

Rick, that Article says it all. Thanks Herm.

Thanks guys. l'm due to replace my radiator hoses now anyway, so l have decided to order the long brass tube, hoses and clamps, and a new belt from Lang's.... the short belt. The pump is coming off (soon as l find a housing) and lm gonna flush the radiator well.

My two cents worth - both my model T's overheated especially in parades until I broke down and bought new radiators and used water wetter - now - no problems, they run great. I have a brand new non used leakless pump I wish I could sell - I wasted big money - also wasted money on that stupid new aeremore and its cheaply made junk leaky valve that goes in the exhaust!